Day-Old Abandoned Litter of Five

[dustytiger]

Honestly, if I've really done all that I could possibly do, I'll be at peace with whatever outcome knowing that I did my absolute best to give these kittens a better chance. That's not to say that I'll be happy with it, but I won't constantly have that nagging "You could have done more" playing through my head. 

For a while now, people have been telling me that if the kittens DO happen to die, then it's not my fault because I did my best--it's the fault of the person who dumped them in the park to begin with. Every time I've been told that they'll die, my general reply has been, "I'll cry about it if it actually happens." and maybe it's because I probably don't understand the true extent of the danger they're in as much as you do or maybe because they're all still alive and meowing when I pick them up here in front of me, but I'm not about to lose hope for a single one of them. I've received grave news like this before for my resident cat, Juliet, when I got her two years ago.

She'd been getting neglected by her owners when she was about a two months old, not eating any solid food and the owners hadn't noticed until she was in critical condition. Being a Maine Coon-Persian mix, she's a really expensive cat over here, going for around 1500RM. The deal was that if I could save her, I could keep her and I was delighted because I'd been looking for a cat but I wanted to rescue one, not buy one. When I took her to the vet upon receiving her all the vet said to me was, "Make her comfortable." and didn't seem to believe that she could be saved at all, telling me she'd probably have less than a week. I asked her if there was anything I could possibly do, and she very doubtfully said that I could force-feed her a liquefied can of cat food that was high in fat, but it probably wasn't going to work.

It's been two years since then and honestly Juliet's the best cat I could have ever asked for. I still have a huge scar from where she raked her claws down my arm while I was trying to force-feed her, and when I look at it I can't help but smile when I remember how much we got through back then.  All I can say is  that I hope this situation turns out like that one did. That I'm going to look back at all this and think, "They had some close calls, but look at them now!" and take pictures of them sunbathing like how I do every morning with Juliet.

I'm sorry I rambled, I got really passionate about it. I guess what I'm saying is that I'm not really prepared to accept the possibility of losing any of them. It's not over until it's over, and as long as they're breathing there's a chance and I wholeheartedly believe in that chance. I know it's naive to think that way, and it might get me hurt in the long run, but I kind of want to hang onto that feeling for as long as I can.

 

[StefanZ]

. When I took her to the vet upon receiving her all the vet said to me was, "Make her comfortable." and didn't seem to believe that she could be saved at all, telling me she'd probably have less than a week. I asked her if there was anything I could possibly do, and she very doubtfully said that I could force-feed her a liquefied can of cat food that was high in fat, but it probably wasn't going to work.

Vets tell quite often such, or variations "its hopeless".   I think they really wants to lessen the burden of not convinced caretaker.  Many persons arent prepared or willing to fight all out, giving care, love, efforts and many sleepless days...  Or in some other variations, pay for necessary surgery.

So they dont want them to feel guilty, and lessens their burden by telling; this is hopeless.   Let me put her to sleep. Or Make it comfortable... Its the only...

And while in many cases its thrue, the owner / rescuer, who is really decided to fight on, whatever the trouble, will ask anew, even beg,  if there is anything to try with...   While the others will tend to agree and accept the defeat.

Very wise of these vets.

And very wise and praiseworthy of you to continue, to take the chance,  however much work and caretaking it takes...

 

[StefanZ]

Im wondering about these little ones.

They had from beginning made it better than the average, so to speak. No losses.   As your first vet said - its "normal" at least one of orphans dies in such a litter.

  And now, although half  or less of the weigh they should have in this moment, they are still alive, and even seems thriving.

I mean, at this moment, almost two weeks old, they have  barely the weigh of average birthing weigh!   And yet they gained some, as I understand it.

So they must have been really tiny when born, although not any prematures.  A whole litter of miniature cats, half of the size of their siblins,  So to speak.

- Or??  You  hadnt no functioniong scale in the beginning, so how do you deem it optically and by weighint in hand? The first day and now?

I dont know anything about the natural population of the cats at your place, in Malaysia.

And they were dumped, so their mom was probably a home girl, not a homeless ferale.

Yet, I think the mom, and their ancestors, must have been descendants of some natural population, roughed up by difficult circumstances.  A population of ferales / semiferales, where the weak ones perish, and thus, only the strong ones survive and send their genes on down the river of life.

Them also being smallish hints they are either of a local breed of cats who gets small kittens (and small adult cats?), OR  they are from a maternal line where they ARE small at birth.

The maths of this equation  doesnt  meets otherwise.

Still, the guidelines as skissed by Catwoman stands fast.   We cant risk anything less.

Good luck!

 

[reba]

 
Honestly, if I've really done all that I could possibly do, I'll be at peace with whatever outcome knowing that I did my absolute best to give these kittens a better chance. That's not to say that I'll be happy with it, but I won't constantly have that nagging "You could have done more" playing through my head. 

For a while now, people have been telling me that if the kittens DO happen to die, then it's not my fault because I did my best--it's the fault of the person who dumped them in the park to begin with.

That's so good to hear and it's so crystal clear how thoughtful your efforts have been.  Amazing really.  I know what catwoman says is true regarding the impact of love in the equation.  Feisty love in your case, I still laugh at your responses to the un-believers. 

Not saying it's not hard either! I can tell you this much, the ones I have rescued who were in the worst way, who take some time to get well and healthy enough to be adopted, I bawl. Yep, I cry my eyes out when they go.
 

Oh gosh that's what I meant.  Just the thought that noone will take care of them like you did.  I suppose that they still have you as a resource and at least you know they'll contact you if things go wrong. 

I know the guy who has the livestream feed of his litters (Foster Dad John - he only has litters with Mom's though)  has mentioned how if he keeps the kittens it's a failed foster because he won't have the room for more. 

BTW Dusty if you want to get a comparison for their weights or development:

Here's one of the archived litters: 
Here's their weight chart: 

 

[riley1]

I bet  you are exhausted by now!  Hang in there & tell yourself you are doing everything possible.  Hope for the best outcome.  Just think, all of them would have died if you had not taken them in & put in such a labor of love.

 

[catwoman707]

@DustyTiger  I can hear in your words you have that same drive that I do. A rescuer's heart  

I have story after story of what vets considered hopeless, and tried to convince me to consider the cat and "do the right thing" and euthanize them.

These vets know me now, is all I can say  

I am a rescuer, and will always go to extreme lengths when there is any hope at all. If they are alive, breathing, and not in great pain or suffering that needs to be stopped right then and there, I will save them. Even as one of my threads about an felv pos and extremely sick cat Baby shows, there is ALWAYS hope in my eyes.

The only time there is not and I give in to it, is for the obvious, fip/panleukopenia/heart/kidney failure type things that I know I can't change.

What I said in my post was just to prepare you in case, as they ARE extremely critical and fragile. I just wanted to be sure you really understood just how much, and if you do lose any or even all, you know in your heart you have done everything you can to save them. 

There is as much as 1 week more to get them recovered and much bigger. What this means is, you will have another hurdle to get through around 3 weeks old. It's possible however that these babies might be the exception because of their lack of progression so far, but often times bottle babies at around 3 weeks old suddenly stop wanting to eat. 

I've talked people through this many times before, including with all of my own fosters. But if you know what to watch for and know how it works, you will get through this in just a few days.

But we will cross that bridge when it's time

How's their weights today??

 

[dustytiger]

@StefanZ,

Interestingly enough, your guesses aren't all that far off.

Something I've noticed is that the cats in Malaysia--especially the strays-- are all of very petite builds compared to the strays I've seen in other countries such as Turkey, USA, and UK. Some of the males will turn out kind of big, but for the most part they're all fairly small in size compared to cats in colder countries. I saw a stray cat sitting next to a purebred American Shorthair that my friend owned and it looked tiny compared to it. I've also cared for a lot of strays in my time here and they've all been quite small with delicate features--which I've taken to calling the "Pixie" look, because they have large ears and large eyes but small faces and bodies. In fact, all of them are already showing signs of having that look except for Big Black, who's head and build seems to be considerably bigger than all the other kittens'.

@Reba,

Thank you! I'll give them a call as soon as it's work hours! Maybe I'll at least be able to find another store that stocks it here. I had no idea they had a branch here I could contact. I can't thank you enough! 

@Riley1,

Haha, I am pretty burnt out, but I've got a lot of different motivation strategies--from mixes of music that helps me get pumped to setting names on my phone alarms that spur me into moving no matter how sleepy I am. The best ones are, "The Kittens NEED You", "Are They Meowing??" and "The Kittens Are HUNGRY!!". Of course, all the encouragement and great advice from everyone here also helps keep me going! Thank you!

@catwoman707,

Thank you! Honestly, I take that as a great compliment coming from you!

Hopefully they won't be that difficult at three weeks, but for now they seem to be doing much better than before!

I took their weights this morning and I'm pretty surprised!

Their current weights are,

Big Tabby-- 123g

Big Black-- 120g

Small Tabby-- 129g

Small Black-- 111g

Black and white- 109g

Honestly, I'm shocked..... I thought my scale might be off, but I tested a bunch of different items on it and it's showing the correct weight for each of them. I have this "Isn't this too good to be true?" feeling seeing as they were in such horrible condition before and then suddenly they all gained 8-18 grams??? Is that even possible??? It's freaking weird, it's like the diarrhea and weight loss never happened and they're all back to eating normally. I don't even have to force-feed any of them anymore.

There IS one concern, however, and it's that Big Tabby doesn't seem to be urinating, and I've noticed a little discoloration of the skin around some of the kitten's bums. They're not dirty --I've already checked-- but the skin seems darker. Also none of them seem to have pooped since Saturday. I'm planning on taking them to the vet again just to be safe, but he's not open for another hour and a half, since it's only 10AM here and he opens shop at 11:30AM.

I'm a little worried I'm being really overprotective of them, and he might get annoyed with how often I bring them for checkups over everything, but I need to pass by there to get more packages of formula anyway.

 

[reba]

Fingers crossed that you can get a hold of her.  You may be able to purchase it from them directly or at least tell them what you're looking for.  The sizes of what they sell are here:

http://www.petag.com/product/cat-milk-replacers/kmr-powder-2/

 

[reba]

Dusty I gave Mirinda a heads up that you would be contacting her and this was her wonderful reply.  I told her I would post here and you should get notified in your email, but I suspect you may be taking them to the vets at the moment:

Thank you for your email about the lady in Malaysia trying to raise the 5 abandoned kittens.  I have just read through the thread this morning and would like to help in any way I can.  What is the best way to contact her?  I see you have given her my contact details but I would like to perhaps email her directly.  From what I have read, she is located in a fairly remote area in Malaysia (but where?).  We have a distributor in Malaysia and if I can find out where the lady is located, I can see the nearest pet shop/clinic that stocks the KMR.   I know she has ordered some KMR already and that is perhaps already on its way.  I can send her some KMR Powder from Hong Kong but that may take quite a few days depending on where she is located.

Thank You & Best Regards,

Mirinda

 

[catwoman707]

@catwoman707,

Thank you! Honestly, I take that as a great compliment coming from you!

Hopefully they won't be that difficult at three weeks, but for now they seem to be doing much better than before!

I took their weights this morning and I'm pretty surprised!

Their current weights are,

Big Tabby-- 123g

Big Black-- 120g

Small Tabby-- 129g

Small Black-- 111g

Black and white- 109g

Honestly, I'm shocked..... I thought my scale might be off, but I tested a bunch of different items on it and it's showing the correct weight for each of them. I have this "Isn't this too good to be true?" feeling seeing as they were in such horrible condition before and then suddenly they all gained 8-18 grams??? Is that even possible??? It's freaking weird, it's like the diarrhea and weight loss never happened and they're all back to eating normally. I don't even have to force-feed any of them anymore.

There IS one concern, however, and it's that Big Tabby doesn't seem to be urinating, and I've noticed a little discoloration of the skin around some of the kitten's bums. They're not dirty --I've already checked-- but the skin seems darker. Also none of them seem to have pooped since Saturday. I'm planning on taking them to the vet again just to be safe, but he's not open for another hour and a half, since it's only 10AM here and he opens shop at 11:30AM.

I'm a little worried I'm being really overprotective of them, and he might get annoyed with how often I bring them for checkups over everything, but I need to pass by there to get more packages of formula anyway.

Weights are looking better at least, this is always heading in a positive direction!! Keep it up!

Also great to know they are all back to eating on their own, yaay for that!!

It's okay if they haven't pooped, if they didn't have alot going in just before saturday then it gets behind a bit. Not a biggie, I have solutions for that too!! haha!

Let them do their thing and see how it goes is all.

What makes you say he is not urinating? How long? This would be highly unusual for a baby their age, unless dehydrated.

Remember, so I don't forget about saying this later, but when you get kmr, be sure to gradually switch them, over about a day and a half or so. Make up the kmr and the once currently using and do a 50/50 mix.

How are you keeping them warm btw?

What is the temps there during the day and at night?

 

[dustytiger]

@Reba,

Omg, this is wonderful! Thank you so much!  Hopefully there might turn out to be somewhere close I can get some KMR.

@catwoman707,

I had a bit of a scare because Big Tabby didn't urinate after two of his meals, but then when I fed them then started to stimulate them just before I took them to the vet it suddenly urinated...

I told the vet what happened and he examined him, but said that it was probably fine and concluded that maybe one of the siblings that's been suckling on the others might be to blame, suckling on him and making him urinate before  I got to him. It's kind of a line-up, you see. I feed all of them, then I stimulate all of them and I keep a checklist so I don't mix up anything or feed a kitten twice. I usually go alphabetically, so the vet said that maybe when I put him back into the tub, he'd get stimulated to pee before I picked him up when it was time to stimulate all of them.

For warmth I have two hot water bottles placed in a sort of wide V at one side of the tub, leaving the other side of the tub fairly empty, just in case one of the kittens is too hot and wants to move away.

It's monsoon season now, so the temperature isn't as hot as it usually is. During the day it's about 85-90°F during the day and about 75-80°F at night. I reheat the bottles every time I feed them, however, so their temperature is never changing too much.

 

[catwoman707]

Sounds great to me!! Heating/temp is good, pee is not an issue, his thinking is same as mine, it's usually that he peed without your help and you didn't notice basically.

As soon as you can, check weights again and let's see how things are from ystrdy

 

[keyes]

Honestly, I'm hooked on this thread right now.  It's like how the babies doing and are they gaining weight and any new problems popping up? It's totally a need to know for me.  Still sending all my best to you DustyTiger.

 

[anne with cats]

Got another new thread starting. Lady trying to get stray/feral and 6  N/B kittens in house because it's cold.

 

[dustytiger]

@catwoman707,

Yes! Things finally seem to be properly on track! Thank you for all your support through all this!

I took their weights this morning and their current weights are,

Big Tabby-- 123g

Big Black-- 120g

Small Tabby-- 135g

Small Black-- 119g

Black and white- 115g

They all seem to be showing increases in their weight except for Big Black, who's stayed pretty much the same as compared to last time when he was 120g. Just a single gram's difference...

I want to say that he doesn't seem sick, but honestly I don't quite know where he's concerned. He's always been on the quiet side, and he doesn't meow properly (he makes small squeaks and whimper-ish noises instead) so it's a little difficult to tell where he's concerned. The vet examined him thoroughly and said that there are some cats who don't meow like others, and that he appears to be one of them. He eats well, and he's peeing and pooing as well. He even walks around, tries to climb out of the tub and his eyes are open.

In all honesty, I'm a little stumped. Maybe I should increase the amount of food I'm giving him? I've been going by 3.6ml each meal for all of them as the vet suggested and it seems to be working for the rest of them, but maybe I should give him a little more?

@keyes,

Haha, it's been quite a roller-coaster, hasn't it? Though, you do kind of bring up a thought that's been at the back of my mind for a while--Hasn't this been a little too complicated?

Maybe it's because the kittens I've raised in my time were all at least 2 weeks or older, but I don't remember things being this intense when caring for them. It was all very straightforward, no worry and no struggle. I don't know if that means I've just been lucky until now and had easy cases, or if these kittens right now are a special case.

Whichever way, thank you for your support!

@Anne with Cats,

Oh no! I hope things work out for them! With any luck, they'll be rescued and not have any complications like these babies have been. I wish I had advice to offer...

Best of luck to them!

 

[catwoman707]

 
@catwoman707,

Yes! Things finally seem to be properly on track! Thank you for all your support through all this!

I took their weights this morning and their current weights are,

Big Tabby-- 123g

Big Black-- 120g

Small Tabby-- 135g

Small Black-- 119g

Black and white- 115g

They all seem to be showing increases in their weight except for Big Black, who's stayed pretty much the same as compared to last time when he was 120g. Just a single gram's difference...

I want to say that he doesn't seem sick, but honestly I don't quite know where he's concerned. He's always been on the quiet side, and he doesn't meow properly (he makes small squeaks and whimper-ish noises instead) so it's a little difficult to tell where he's concerned. The vet examined him thoroughly and said that there are some cats who don't meow like others, and that he appears to be one of them. He eats well, and he's peeing and pooing as well. He even walks around, tries to climb out of the tub and his eyes are open.

In all honesty, I'm a little stumped. Maybe I should increase the amount of food I'm giving him? I've been going by 3.6ml each meal for all of them as the vet suggested and it seems to be working for the rest of them, but maybe I should give him a little more?

@keyes,

Haha, it's been quite a roller-coaster, hasn't it? Though, you do kind of bring up a thought that's been at the back of my mind for a while--Hasn't this been a little too complicated?

Maybe it's because the kittens I've raised in my time were all at least 2 weeks or older, but I don't remember things being this intense when caring for them. It was all very straightforward, no worry and no struggle. I don't know if that means I've just been lucky until now and had easy cases, or if these kittens right now are a special case.

Whichever way, thank you for your support

Some kittens don't have a meow like most, and I love the squeak chirp sound they make! Too cute. This doesn't indicate anything wrong though.

Despite his being one of the biggest, he is still very tiny and needs to gain every day as the rest do, personally I would try to get more daily gains out of all of them.

At now 2 weeks old there is no reason why they can't gain a good 8+ grams a day, more is of course even better.

I would increase everyone's intake actually.

We tend to worry so much about the smallest/weakest ones, and yet will suddenly have one of the biggest ones head downhill, with no real reason why showing. So he needs to gain everyday as well.

It HAS been a rollercoaster for this litter!! 

I blame it completely on the inability to get kmr, the different things you have had to come up with to feed, that the changes upset their tummies and stopped eating, etc.

Too soon still to know if they will all make it through, you never can tell what little workings are going on inside of their tiny bods, as it takes time to catch up to them and show.

So far so good, another day and they are all still with us!!  Yaay for that!!!  

 

[dustytiger]

His little sounds ARE really cute, ngl! He's also got a different build from the others. I think when he grows up he might actually be quite a massive black cat, which I would love!

I've been calling him by male pronouns, but I honestly don't know any of their genders yet... I can usually tell with adult cats, but it's tougher with kittens. 

How much d'you think I should up their food intake by, though? Should I take it up to maybe 4ml and just slowly raise the amount day by day? Or just stick to something like 4ml?

Because, honestly, it does seem as though they're still hungry when I put them back in the tub after a feeding.

 

[catwoman707]

I'd up it to 5 mls, and increase by 1/2 ml per feeding a day if possible.

Yes we need to know boys or girls

How you can tell is, girls have 2 holes close together, where as boys have much more space in between this, and that !!

Since you have so many, simply compare them to one another and you will be able to tell easily.

 

[keyes]

I was going to suggest the same thing feeding wise.  Except it would have been just saying that try increasing the amount, I'm glad you had an amount for her to try catwoman707.  It's like a big surprise when you find out what they are!!  You be a boy, you be a girl and oh my goodness another little boy and so on and so on.  I love finding out what they are.

 

[reba]

 
.My main concern right now, however, is that I already have an indoor cat and I'm worried she might do something to them.

If you knew then what you know now.  And in the space of 12 days no less!   Awesome, awesome job.