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Clostridium And S. Boulardii

Discussion in 'Cat Health' started by katsen, Jul 10, 2018.

  1. katsen

    katsen Thread Starter TCS Member Kitten

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    Jul 5, 2018
    Hi there, first time poster, long time lurker.

    Have a 1 year old boy that’s been having various degrees of soft stools for about 6 months. He got tested twice for regular parasites and both tests came back negative. I recently did a PCR test though that came back positive for Clostridium Perfringens, at about 800,000/g.

    Before doing the PCR test, my vet gave me a week’s worth of Metronidazole to try out, but it did nothing at all on him. When the results came in, she said we could try Amoxicillin instead for two weeks OR do nothing at all and wait until the bacteria clears by itself... She said that since he seemed to be Metronidazole-resistant, the Amoxicillin might not work on him either. She didn’t suggest anything else.

    I literally read all the threads and articles written about C. Perf and antibiotics (what a headache) and it seems that the results vary from: the diarrhea clears up only when the cat is on the meds but then comes back as soon as the meds are over, or, it doesn’t do much at all. After reading about S. Boulardii and its good results though, I decided to try out Renew Life BoulardiiMAX with 10 billion CFUs. The reason I chose this brand is that it only contains 1 ingredient and that is S. Boulardii, nothing else. I see a lot of people refer Nutricology, but I don’t know how I feel about it containing Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose (a corn derivative?), Microcrystalline Cellulose (toxic in mammals?), Silicon Dioxide (contributes to urolithiasis?) and Stearic Acid (made from cottonseed which has a high content of pesticide residue that can damage the liver?) - all inactive ingredients that seem to be better off avoided. The brand AOR contains Sodium Stearyl Fumarate (a corn derivative?). The brand Sisu contains Magnesium Fumarate as well as Microcrystalline Cellulose. And the much-liked Jarrow & MOS not only has Maltodextrin, but also Vitamin C (contributes to the formation of stones in the urinary tract?), Magnesium Fumarate and Silicon Dioxide. Hence, Renew Life seemed like a cleaner choice to me. I just don’t know if I want to risk adding anything else to the mix that might potentially cause harm to him down the road.

    But since the capsules are 10 billion CFUs, I give him half of that for the whole day, so 5 billion CFUs in actuality. I split that in two, so I give him a 1/4 in the morning and a 1/4 in the evening (2.5 billion each time basically). Tomorrow will be week that I started the treatment - I see a tiny bit of improvement but not much (sometimes the stools are very nice clean logs, sometimes they're quite soft-serve). I know I should give it to him for a whole month, so I'll wait patiently.

    A few questions for now:

    - Is this dosage OK, or should I try to find a brand that actually contains 5 billions CFUs instead so that he gets a "larger" amount of powder at each feed? What happens if I give him the 10 billion CFUs?

    - My vet said that the C. Perf could sometimes be a secondary infection due to an IBD for instance. Would I be able to determine that the cause is indeed more of an inflammatory/digestive/food issue IF he doesn’t get better after a month? Or could it be a question of trial and error until I find the right brand and right dosage for him? The vet put him on ZD for now.

    I have two hypotheses as to where he could've gotten the bacteria from. One is from a potentially bad batch of canned food he turned his nose to, but then nibbled on it anyway for a few minutes. And the other is from when he got neutered at the ASPCA, who knows. It started right after that.

    Anyway, thanks in advance! :hellocomputer:
     

  2. Furballsmom

    Furballsmom TCS Member Top Cat

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    Jan 9, 2018
    Colorado USA
    Hi! Welcome!!
    I'm sorry your post didn't receive a reply before this...

    I don't have specific experience with this and can't speak to it directly, but would you be interested in talking with a different vet? In reading through your post, it feels to me like you've been left hanging by your current vet to a degree...

    Listed side effects of Boulardii seem to indicate using caution (--in people) where there is a weakened immune system and where antibiotics are being administered. Just a note, I'm not a vet but personally I'm with you, as clean a product as possible and I'd probably stick with the Renew...I can't suggest anything about increasing the dosage.

    However, is there anything you can pin down on the days that he has good poop? Can you start a log of everything he does and eats, or doesn't, on a daily basis (as best you can)?

    well, a food issue, maybe - some cats have troubles with dry food after a while. You indicated you're feeding canned. Manufacturers change recipes fairly frequently which can cause stomach problems, usually taken care of with a brand change. If you've been feeding the same brand all along since this problem began, and it clears up with the vet's food, then you could possibly point at the food.

    Digestive - sensitivies/allergies, maybe, this requires time and food ingredient testing with him, to see if a food without carrageenen, for instance, or without menadione/Vitamin K3, settles his stomach, et al.

    IBD is a whole other thing.

    By the way, you could also add a teaspoon of pumpkin to his food. The fiber can help.
     
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  3. Furballsmom

    Furballsmom TCS Member Top Cat

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    Jan 9, 2018
    Colorado USA
    Oh by the way - if you aren't already, use only ceramic dishes and bowls for his food and water, and filter his water. I prefer the faucet-end filters (like pur - Costco has the filters for less) - those remove a lot more contaminants than the charcoal filters in cat water fountains.
     
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  4. white shadow

    white shadow TCS Member Top Cat

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    Hi katsen and welcome to the forum !

    The two TCS references I use for Clostridium Perfringens are:
    and, the two 'resident experts' on the topic (IMO) are the authors of those threads.

    I have no experience with either CP nor SB............

    But, we can try and see if, perhaps, either/both of the authors of those threads might just be able to help you.

    So, @carolina and/or @ldg.............thoughts on these two questions ?
    .
     
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  5. Tobermorey

    Tobermorey TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Dec 13, 2017
    Oregon
    katsen and Furballsmom purraised this.

  6. Tobermorey

    Tobermorey TCS Member Alpha Cat

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    Dec 13, 2017
    Oregon
    :yeah:
    @white shadow beat me to it and gave even more info. Is this site great or what!
     
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  7. katsen

    katsen Thread Starter TCS Member Kitten

    7
    2
    Jul 5, 2018
    Thanks so much for your input everyone, much appreciated!

    I’ve been keeping a poop log, yes :crazy:

    It’s hard to pin down anything because he eats the same thing each day, three times a day. The only other thing I can say is that he is veryyyyyyyy stressed when people come over, which isn’t that often but still. So, stress might play a part in the stool variations, who knows, even though I try my best to do stress reduction and environmental enrichment constantly around the house.

    Regarding food: he eats canned food only. He hasn’t been eating the same brand since this problem began, no. I’ve tried multiple limited ingredient diets (mostly Merrick and Weruva) since I thought this problem was related to a digestive issue before getting the PCR results back, but the results were always pretty much the same which each brand he ate, which makes me think that the C. Perf is really what’s causing the diarrhea after all and not so much the type of food he is eating. I do add pumpkin to his food a couple of times a week.

    My plan is to try out the S. Boulardii before starting to find him yet another brand of food to try out, as I think switching around food like this might cause upset too? I read that C. Perf has cycles of reoccurrence each two to four weeks, so it’s gonna be super hard to tell whether the S. Boulardii is working or whether the bacteria is just in remission… Frustrating.

    I guess I wanted to see whether anyone on here has had definitive results within a month to rule out that it’s food related :crossfingers:

    And as for the vet, well, she didn’t seem to have a whole lot of experience dealing with C. Perf, but then again, all vets I’ve ever tried out in my life have always just been pro-medication only and know very little about 'alternative' medicine. So I’m not real hopeful that any other vet will have better suggestions aside from "try the Amoxicillin and see"…
     
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  8. Furballsmom

    Furballsmom TCS Member Top Cat

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    Colorado USA
    Say, do you have a university with a veterinary department that you can speak with?
     

  9. katsen

    katsen Thread Starter TCS Member Kitten

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    Jul 5, 2018
    Yeah, there's a veterinary faculty, but I'm not sure they do consults. I can check though!
     
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  10. Furballsmom

    Furballsmom TCS Member Top Cat

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    :crossfingers: :redheartpump:
     

  11. katsen

    katsen Thread Starter TCS Member Kitten

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    Jul 5, 2018
    I just read this very informative document called "Probiotics for Cats - Why and Which Ones" that states

    The effective dose in cats ranges from 100 million CFU (very low) to 450 BILLION (very high). The typical recommendation you’ll see here for adult cats is between 10 billion and 40 billion (half these for kittens). But this is why using probiotics can take quite a bit of trial-and-error.

    Here’s the article:

    So if he’s nearly one year’s old, would giving him 10 billion CFUs be considered safe then? I’m guessing that "half for kittens" means that half of 40 billion would be the absolute maximum?
     

  12. katsen

    katsen Thread Starter TCS Member Kitten

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    Jul 5, 2018
    Oops, the url obviously didn't work! Here's the link again:

     

  13. LTS3

    LTS3 TCS Member Top Cat

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    A lot of the "extra" stuff is what makes up the capsule, not in the actual powdered probiotic. You're not giving the capsule to a cat.

    You should start with a low CFU count and work your way up if needed. This avoids possible tummy upset. 5 billion CFU won't cause any issue for most cats. Work your way through a bottle of that and then buy a higher CFU probiotic if you don't see any improvement.

    I use Nexabiotic S. Boulardii for my IBD cat and a separate 50 billion CFU probiotic.
     

  14. katsen

    katsen Thread Starter TCS Member Kitten

    7
    2
    Jul 5, 2018
    I think often times when the extra stuff is part of the capsule, they actually separate the ingredients' list and write "capsule:" to indicate that it's separate from the medical stuff. AOR, for instance, lists S. Boulardii as the main ingredient, but then writes "non-medical ingredients: sodium stearyl fumarate; capsule: hypromellose".

    Anyway, I'll continue using the Renew Life for the time being, which is 10 billion CFUs per capsule, but I only use half of that for the whole day, so 5 billion CFUs in the end. I guess I could wait until next month to up the dosage if needed, but I just wanted to see if someone else on TCS was using a higher dosage.

    @LTS3 the Nexabiotic you posted is 10 billion CFUs per two capsules, so this means each capsule is 5 billion, so this could work. Do you order these online? They don't sell them where I live, and I wonder if the extreme heat could damage the content if the bottle sits in a truck all day long...
     

  15. LTS3

    LTS3 TCS Member Top Cat

    7,648
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    Aug 29, 2014
    USA
    Yes, 5 billion CFU per capsule. I buy the Nexabiotic from Amazon. Shipping temperature sensitive products like probiotics can be iffy during the summer because of unheated delivery trucks, the package sitting in a mailbox in full sun all day, etc.:ohwell: Most people try to stock up during the cooler months.
     
    katsen purraised this.

  16. katsen

    katsen Thread Starter TCS Member Kitten

    7
    2
    Jul 5, 2018
    Yeah, that's what I thought. I'll stock up in the fall then.

    I'll wait and see if anyone else uses a 10 billion dose :rolleyes:

    Just another quick question now regarding cleaning the litter box during the treatment. My vet didn't mention anything about this, but does anyone know how contagious C. Perf is in terms of re-infestation? I did a thorough cleaning of his box (hot water and bleach) the day I started the Boulardii, but I wonder how often I should be doing this from now on. I scoop up twice a day, but is thorough cleaning necessary like it is when treating parasites?
     

  17. Furballsmom

    Furballsmom TCS Member Top Cat

    6,023
    6,670
    Jan 9, 2018
    Colorado USA

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