Cat makes huge deep meow

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Carolina

You are lucky you never had problems with your first cat. It is not because one didn't have a problem that all will not have it. Be ready for the spraying to start. Possible fights, aggression, darting to the door, and other problems.

Now.... May I ask you why exactly are you against neutering cats?

Not that hard to understand really. You're mutilating perfectly healthy organs that will produce a very clear observable change in the natural behavior of the animal, and it doesn't pass the "would you allow a parent to do it to their child" test.

You'd never advise a woman to have a complete hysterectomy for example for birth control, and for males it'd be far less invasive to just do a vasectomy.

Personally, I like the behavior change and I know it improves the human/feline relationship and thus makes for a happier household for all, but thats why I am also not opposed to declawing for the same reason on cats whose destructive behavior can't be controlled by other means. What I find odd though are those that are huge advocates of complete sex organ removal, but crusade against and demonize declaws... its like... wait, what?

 

[addiebee]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

Not that hard to understand really. You're mutilating perfectly healthy organs that will produce a very clear observable change in the natural behavior of the animal, and it doesn't pass the "would you allow a parent to do it to their child" test.

You'd never advise a woman to have a complete hysterectomy for example for birth control, and for males it'd be far less invasive to just do a vasectomy.

Personally, I like the behavior change and I know it improves the human/feline relationship and thus makes for a happier household for all, but thats why I am also not opposed to declawing for the same reason on cats whose destructive behavior can't be controlled by other means. What I find odd though are those that are huge advocates of complete sex organ removal, but crusade against and demonize declaws... its like... wait, what?

First- you have to understand that The Cat Site is pro spay/neuter and anti declaw. It is in the rules when you sign up. So coming here and saying these things is like smacking a hornets nest - unless that is what you intend to do.

Second- the two things are not comparable. It is not just for a harmonious household. Thousands of cats and kittens are destroyed every day in shelters around this country because people didn't get their animals fixed. So PLEASE don't lecture us on here about the removal of sex organs as a means of population control.

Declawing for extreme behavior is just that... extreme. Removing sex organs means no unwanted kittens being stuffed in gas chambers or killed with heart stick... or even the supposely more humane lethal injection. Removing CLAWS on the other hand is mutilation and is done almost always for the CONVENIENCE of the humans involved.

 

[ducman69]

I am anti-declaw (there is no reason for it for the majority of cats with today's available products) and pro-neuter. But I acknowledge the fact that both are removing perfectly healthy parts of a feline's anatomy. There are safer and less extreme alternatives to COMPLETE sex organ removal to control unwanted breeding just as there are for declawing, but the complete spay/neuter results in a more docile animal which benefits the human-feline relationship (just like... yup). If you take a group of a hundred kitties though, there will be a few that just won't take to typical scratching redirection or allow the application of soft-claws or even clipping without earth shaking drama, and the alternative is usually a return to a shelter and most likely euthanasia.

BTW, not sure if you got what I was saying, but a vasectomy is routine for breeders so a male cat can service a female in heat without producing a litter. It is less invasive surgery, and achieves the same population control.

 

[addiebee]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

I am anti-declaw (there is no reason for it for the majority of cats with today's available products) and pro-neuter. But I acknowledge the fact that both are removing perfectly healthy parts of a feline's anatomy. There are safer and less extreme alternatives to COMPLETE sex organ removal to control unwanted breeding just as there are for declawing, but the complete spay/neuter results in a more docile animal which benefits the human-feline relationship (just like... yup). If you take a group of a hundred kitties though, there will be a few that just won't take to typical scratching redirection or allow the application of soft-claws or even clipping without earth shaking drama, and the alternative is usually a return to a shelter and most likely euthanasia.

BTW, not sure if you got what I was saying, but a vasectomy is routine for breeders so a male cat can service a female in heat without producing a litter. It is less invasive surgery, and achieves the same population control.

Docile??? Then you need to come to my household for a while. While my boys don't "fight" like intact males do over females and territory... they are plenty feisty. Most people are not going to bother with a vasectomy for their cats. Breeders I understand .... however, it's easier and more failsafe to remove the testicles. It's less involved for cats than dogs, where the entire scrotal sac is removed. And what is so bad about making a cat more compatible with a household? It's better than putting the animal outside to fend for itself, kill birds, get hit by a car, become a coyote snack or end up in a high kill shelter because it is spraying.

Frankly, I'm "spayed" and glad I did it. It was medically necessary. And I can assure you I am not DOCILE!!!

 

[Willowy]

I've always said that if I was 100% sure that I would never have kids, and I could get my insurance to pay for it, I'd have myself "spayed". Saves the trouble of everything, and I constantly worry about ovarian cancer. It would be nice not to have to worry about that. So I'm completely in favor of spaying female pets, of all species. Female hormones are nothing special, just annoying.

Though I suppose men can't relate. . . I don't think very many men would volunteer to be "neutered"!

I do think neutering has benefits for male cats, beyond making them more agreeable housepets. I've never met a contented tomcat--they're always prowling, fighting (and constantly scratched up and abcessed), wandering, howling, restless, etc. They just don't seem happy. On the other hand, I do prefer an intact male dog. I will probably have my next male dog vasectomized instead of neutered. The benefits of castration are completely dependent on species.

But, like I said, if that's the choice someone makes to live with an intact animal, they have to accept all the behaviors that go with those hormones, even the bad ones. No fair punishing or getting rid of the pet because YOU made the choice.

 

[sherry526]

Taken from ASPCA website:

http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/spayneuter
Top 10 Reasons to Spay or Neuter Your Pet

Whether youâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]ve recently adopted a pet or youâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]re considering it, one of the most important health decisions youâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]ll make is to spay or neuter your cat or dog. Spaying—removing the ovaries and uterus of a female pet—is a veterinary procedure that requires minimal hospitalization and offers lifelong health benefits. Neutering—removing the testicles of your male dog or cat—will vastly improve your petâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]s behavior and keep him close to home.

Many states and counties have established low-cost spay/neuter programs that make surgery easily affordable and accessible. To find a low-cost program near you, search our Low-Cost Spay/Neuter Provider Database. If you're in New York City, the ASPCA mobile spay/neuter clinic offers free or low-cost spay/neuter surgery for financially needy dog and cat owners with proof of public assistance. Please contact our hotline at (877) SPAY-NYC for a listing of dates and locations in all five boroughs.

Not convinced yet? Check out our handy—and persuasive—list of the top 10 reasons to spay or neuter your pet!

1. Your female pet will live a longer, healthier life.
Spaying helps prevent uterine infections and breast cancer, which is fatal in about 50 percent of dogs and 90 percent of cats. Spaying your pet before her first heat offers the best protection from these diseases.

2. Neutering provides major health benefits for your male.
Besides preventing unwanted litters, neutering your male companion prevents testicular cancer, if done before six months of age.

3. Your spayed female won't go into heat.
While cycles can vary, female felines usually go into heat four to five days every three weeks during breeding season. In an effort to advertise for mates, they'll yowl and urinate more frequently—sometimes all over the house!

4. Your male dog won't want to roam away from home.
An intact male will do just about anything to find a mate! That includes digging his way under the fence and making like Houdini to escape from the house. And once he's free to roam, he risks injury in traffic and fights with other males.

5. Your neutered male will be much better behaved.
Neutered cats and dogs focus their attention on their human families. On the other hand, unneutered dogs and cats may mark their territory by spraying strong-smelling urine all over the house. Many aggression problems can be avoided by early neutering.

6. Spaying or neutering will NOT make your pet fat.
Donâ€[emoji]8482[/emoji]t use that old excuse! Lack of exercise and overfeeding will cause your pet to pack on the extra pounds—not neutering. Your pet will remain fit and trim as long as you continue to provide exercise and monitor food intake.

7. It is highly cost-effective.
The cost of your pet's spay/neuter surgery is a lot less than the cost of having and caring for a litter. It also beats the cost of treatment when your unneutered tom escapes and gets into fights with the neighborhood stray!

8. Spaying and neutering your pet is good for the community.
Stray animals pose a real problem in many parts of the country. They can prey on wildlife, cause car accidents, damage the local fauna and frighten children. Spaying and neutering packs a powerful punch in reducing the number of animals on the streets.

9. Your pet doesn't need to have a litter for your children to learn about the miracle of birth.
Letting your pet produce offspring you have no intention of keeping is not a good lesson for your children—especially when so many unwanted animals end up in shelters. There are tons of books and videos available to teach your children about birth in a more responsible way.

10. Spaying and neutering helps fight pet overpopulation.
Every year, millions of cats and dogs of all ages and breeds are euthanized or suffer as strays. These high numbers are the result of unplanned litters that could have been prevented by spaying or neutering.
(end of website quote)

So, it isn't just to help the stray and overpopulation problem. You can google "spay/neuter cats" and many websites pop up to explain the same message.

To compare it to the reasoning or effects of human hysterectomies and vasectomies, or comparing it to a "would a parent do this to their child" test is ridiculous. As much as people consider their pets as their children, and I am one of them, they are animals with their own biological needs. Those types of comparisons are apples to oranges.

Spay and neuter your pets. Breeders aside, it is the responsible thing to do as pet owners, for your pet's health and well being as well as for the bigger picture, i.e. the rest of the human/animal kingdom that is earth.

 

[jazzythecat]

As many experienced members have already pointed out, your cat needs to be neutered. It is simply crying out that it needs to go outside and... well, you know. PLEASE, PLEASE get your cat neutered!

Jackz, Jazzy & Ginga.

 

[kylew]

Originally Posted by Carolina

Here is what he is saying: PLEEEEAAAAAASSSEEEEE LET ME OUT OF HEEEEEERRREEEEE I NEEEEEDDDD TO GET LAAAAAAIDDDD!

LOL!

 

[strange_wings]

Originally Posted by Willowy

I've always said that if I was 100% sure that I would never have kids, and I could get my insurance to pay for it, I'd have myself "spayed".

I know I would if I could get my insurance to pay for it. As it is I'll have to wait a couple more years until I could get a doctor to agree to it.

Maybe I skimmed by and missed this. But has anyone pointed out that one side effect of a male cat being unneutered and frustrated is a possible increase in aggression? And that that aggression can be directed at any animal or human in the home if the cat is distressed enough?
If he's not neutered has he even been kept up to date on his rabies vaccination? What happens if he bites and ends up quarantined for it? It's unlikely, with this cat not being a breeding stud, that it would be allowed back with the owner unneutered.

 

[dusty's mom]

He is trying to say that he wants to go out and have sex with a female in heat!

But to allow him that "pleasure" puts his health and his life at risk, not to mention the unwanted unadoptable kittens that are killed each year because pet owners are unwilling to do the healthy thing and have their animals spayed and neutered!

You might consider volunteering your spare time at a local shelter so you can see and learn first hand the cruelty of unaltered pets.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by Sherry526

1. Your female pet will live a longer, healthier life.
Spaying helps prevent uterine infections and breast cancer, which is fatal in about 50 percent of dogs and 90 percent of cats. Spaying your pet before her first heat offers the best protection from these diseases.

2. Neutering provides major health benefits for your male.
Besides preventing unwanted litters, neutering your male companion prevents testicular cancer, if done before six months of age.

To compare it to the reasoning or effects of human hysterectomies and vasectomies, or comparing it to a "would a parent do this to their child" test is ridiculous. As much as people consider their pets as their children, and I am one of them, they are animals with their own biological needs. Those types of comparisons are apples to oranges.

I completely agree that spay/neutering is a good idea, and no animals are NOT humans, but do a google search on declaws. There is no shortage of people comparing it to cutting off a human's fingers. Same story with biological needs that can be addressed through surgery.

But again we have to be honest, the "major health benefits" is a completely bogus claim.

Out of 100,000K cats for example, how many non-neutered males would develop testicular cancer in their regular life span?

How many testicular cancer feline patients are treated annually in the United States?

Thats right, there is likely no real data to back that up, and the risk is so infinitesimally small that its very misleading to make the statement.

Again, I am completely for it, but I really believe that people are often so invested in a particular view point that they (perhaps unknowingly) distort the truth and don't question "facts" that support their conclusion.

My dad doesn't like Obama for example, so he just blindly accepted claims that Obama was a foreigner HAHAHAAHAH! I didn't vote for the guy either, but its like, dad cmon now, lol!

Just playing devil's advocate to keep ourselves honest.

 

[otto]

How many testicular cancer feline patients are treated annually in the United States?

One is too many, when it is so easily prevented. Neutering does provide health benefits to cats, both physical and mental/emotional.

The difference between a human hysterectomy or a male vasectomy is humans have free choice. Humans don't, in general, go out and fight and mate with every in-estrus female they smell.

Cats on the other hand operate on instinct. Their hormones are designed to make them want to mate, to procreate the species. They have no choice. Their body says do this (mate with the female), so they do it. Their body says fight the other male for the female, so they fight. If they aren't allowed to do it, they become frustrated, and may become aggressive, and may spray.

And frankly, I don't know how anyone can live in a house with an intact male cat. It's got to be one of the worst stinks there is.

And actually declawing a cat (amputation of the first toe digit) is more like cutting off a human's toes and heels both, not fingers, because cats walk on their toes and when they are removed the cat becomes crippled.

And like with humans and cats, there are no health benefits to the human for cutting off his toes and heels, and no health benefit to a cat. Just a lazy human.

 

[Willowy]

And I will argue that even if neutering has no health benefits (just for argument's sake), it is still more justifiable than de-clawing because living in a house covered in tomcat pee isn't healthy. Whereas de-clawing prevents what? Some snags in your furniture, maybe, when the cat is young and untrained? Plus most cats grow out of naughty scratching behavior, or can be trained out of it, but spraying usually gets worse with age and can't be trained out. I don't think it's comparable at all.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by otto

One is too many, when it is so easily prevented.

If you remove ANY organ, you remove the possibility of that organ becoming cancerous. Sorry, but I'm not having my daughter's breasts removed as a child "for her health", thats a silly argument in and of itself.

Originally Posted by otto

And frankly, I don't know how anyone can live in a house with an intact male cat. It's got to be one of the worst stinks there is.

Amen to that. I agree entirely, and again this is reminding me of my conversations with my dad about the president. We both agree he sucks, but I try to restrict myself to only the verifiable strong arguments, heh. Avoiding spraying and aggressive behavior or going into heat is a strong 100% verifiable argument. Eliminating cancer risk in an organ by removing it is not, unless one can demonstrate its a statistically significant risk in the first place to justify the more aggressive surgery over other birth control options. Thats all I'm sayin.

Originally Posted by otto

And actually declawing a cat (amputation of the first toe digit) is more like cutting off a human's toes and heels both, not fingers, because cats walk on their toes and when they are removed the cat becomes crippled.

As we agreed, cats are not human, they are cats. And not to start an argument, as I was just trying to make a point, but cats don't walk on their claws, they walk on the fleshy pad affixed to the digit behind the bone that retracts and secures the claw. To say that a cat is crippled and can't walk when declawed is the type of false exaggeration I am talking about though. The fact is just that its typically unnecessary surgery that has risks, concerns for a cat that escapes the home, and so on and so should be avoided when possible.

Originally Posted by otto

And like with humans and cats, there are no health benefits to the human for cutting off his toes and heels, and no health benefit to a cat. Just a lazy human.

What health benefit can you demonstrate to complete sex organ removal? Is there evidence that the health concerns in humans with low testosterone levels doesn't apply to felines? Where are the actual collected statistics and studies? And what is the justification based solely on that for removing tissue BEFORE it has shown any signs of being cancerous? What scientific long-term studies have their been on tomcats vs neutered indoor-only felines?

Lets just stick to FACTS thats all I'm saying:
1) cat overpopulation is a VERY serious problem, and its the responsibility of the caretaker to control this, and its not possible to guarantee that a motivated tomcat wouldn't get out.
2) cats with intact sex organs will display instinctive sexual behavior which most would not be able to easily live with.
3) its a routine low-risk and affordable procedure that doesn't cause any serious health issues.

Thats it really.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

As we agreed, cats are not human, they are cats. And not to start an argument, as I was just trying to make a point, but cats don't walk on their claws, they walk on the fleshy pad affixed to the digit behind the bone that retracts and secures the claw. To say that a cat is crippled and can't walk when declawed is the type of false exaggeration I am talking about though. The fact is just that its typically unnecessary surgery that has risks, concerns for a cat that escapes the home, and so on and so should be avoided when possible.

.

You're wrong. Cats walk on their toes. Ever seen a cat print in the snow or mud? Toes.

Don't have time now to address the rest of your rhetoric, got to go to work. Yo could look it all up for yourself I guess.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by otto

You're wrong. Cats walk on their toes. Ever seen a cat print in the snow or mud? Toes.

Don't have time now to address the rest of your rhetoric, got to go to work. Yo could look it all up for yourself I guess.

You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

I said that cats do NOT walk on the retracted last digit which is removed in a declaw procedure. They walk on the fleshy pad attached to the digit behind it. That does NOT mean that routine declawing is a good thing.

Only the P3 bone, the last bone attached to the claw is removed, and this is not the bone that supports the cat's weight walking as it is retracted by tendon for normal locomotion, else the claws would be worn down, snagged, and/or damaged.

 

[otto]

Originally Posted by Ducman69

You are putting words in my mouth that I did not say.

I said that cats do NOT walk on the retracted last digit which is removed in a declaw procedure. They walk on the fleshy pad attached to the digit behind it. That does NOT mean that routine declawing is a good thing.

Only the P3 bone, the last bone attached to the claw is removed, and this is not the bone that supports the cat's weight walking as it is retracted by tendon for normal locomotion, else the claws would be worn down, snagged, and/or damaged.

Yes but the tendons are cut during a declaw. Any amputation is crippling.




Watch your cats walk. You will see how they use their toes.

I understand you say are against declawing. But I disagree with your arguments that it does not maim mutilate and cripple.

 

[ducman69]

Originally Posted by otto

Yes but the tendons are cut during a declaw. Any amputation is crippling.

No, any amputation is not crippling to locomotion. I amputate the tips of my cats claws for example, heh!

I can show you a video of two of my coworker's white cats that were declawed (he got them from a relative already done) and they are far more athletic than his other clawed (and overweight) cats, and yes, they are FAST runners.

Originally Posted by otto

I understand you say are against declawing. But I disagree with your arguments that it does not maim mutilate and cripple.

It absolutely IS mutilation of a completely healthy and natural part of a cat's anatomy.

And that brings us FULL CIRCLE to the reason I made a small comment in the first place: spay and neutering is ALSO removing a completely healthy and natural part of a cat's anatomy. That by definition is mutilation.

 

[otto]

But spaying and neutering benefit the the mental and physical health of the animal. Declawing only cripples. Nail trimming also benefits the health of the animal, and is not amputation.

 

[strange_wings]

When a cat is declawed it changes the way they bare weight due to that tendon damage. They shift it further back onto the paw pad instead of the toe pads. What you see in these cats is an odd flat footed type walk. Shifting that weight back when the cat evolved to walk on it's toe pads changes the stress upon joints and the spine. This leads to earlier degenerative changes in these areas. Just like improper gait does to the human spine.

If the amputation is done improperly you also get regrown bone and claw, sometimes out through the toe pad. Other vets botch it entirely and you end up with a cat that always has painful feet - which can give rise to some negative behaviors.

There are no negative behaviors associated with spay or neutering itself, though potentially there are risks involved as with any procedure that requires anesthesia (including declawing).