Cat and kitten intro took a wrong turn, I don’t know what to do now

[KelseyCat]

I posted about 10 days ago about an issue that happened during the introduction of my new kitten Oke (4.5 mo) and my resident cat Eko (4 yrs). With the help from all of you here (thank you!) it was determined to be redirected aggression, which makes sense except there was no other aggressor at the time, I’m assuming it was scent based or Eko is just associating an area of the house with seeing cats outside. To summarize, both cats have time together supervised and are getting along pretty well. Eko snapped and attacked Oke twice in the same location several days apart, acting like he was a stranger. You can find the thread here: Possible PTSD during introductions

Anyway, since those first 2 attacks we no longer allow the cats to be together in the dining room where it happened and we keep the patio door closed so there’s no reminder for Eko. We kept them separated for a few days until we had positive interactions on either side of the baby gate and then only allowed them in the same room when Eko was up high and sleepy so he could observe. Now we are able to get them both playing together. Everything will be going perfectly, until it isn’t. We’ve had 3 more attacks and I’m not sure where to go from here.

When Oke first comes out, they are both excited to see each other and pretty much immediately start wrestling. Eko is very vocal with lots of meowing and growling but his body language says he playing and he doesn’t try to get away, even instigating the play when Oke gives him a break. In the last few days Eko has finally gotten confident enough to play with the interactive toys when Oke is around. The problem is that poor Oke now seems traumatized and the second Eko makes a sudden move to play Oke gets very scared, hissing, ears flat, arched back, full body puff. He doesn’t realize that Eko is playing (it happened when Eko jumped down from the table to play with Oke when he turned his back, and when Eko pounced on a toy).

If this was all, I could handle it and work on building Oke’s confidence back up, but when Eko sees that defensive position and hears the little baby hiss, he sees red and a full fight breaks out. Luckily, Oke doesn’t fight back but he has taken some pretty hard hits before we can get something between them. Then he looks at me like I’m a stranger when I get him back to his safe room. I’m really worried about what would happen if Oke tried to fight back, I’m worried he’s going to get seriously hurt.

Does anyone have any suggestions about where to go from here? They really do enjoy playing together (a couple hours after their fight last night they we playing through the bars of the gate with zero negativity) but I don’t know how to desensitize Oke to Eko’s movements and not get startled. I can’t keep letting him get beat up when Eko snaps. And I want him to be confident and not always on guard. But I also don’t want him spending his entire kittenhood in a separate room. Should we go back to full separation for a longer period of time? Should we talk to the vet about Eko’s outbursts, maybe it’s time for medication? Is it time to consider hiring a behaviorist?

 

[Furballsmom]

Hi!
Can you try Cat Music for Oke? Or a calming product - here are a couple sites to look at;

Only Natural Pet (online retailer) has a calming product called Just Relax Calming spray with essential oil (catnip oil).

There's this one, be sure and scroll all the way down the page;
www.bachflower.com

 

[KelseyCat]

Thank you for the suggestions! We’ve been doing the calming music for Eko on days when he’s on edge (we’ve had a lot of storms lately) and had some playing during their interaction yesterday when the fight happened. What volume is best for the music? I keep worrying it’s too loud because their hearing is so good but then I don’t know if it’s loud enough to drown out sudden noises. I also left my husband in charge of the music yesterday so I don’t know which one he chose.

We were using Jackson Galaxy’s Stress Stopper and ran out about a week before the first fight. I waited to order because it says it’s for short term stresses, I ordered more right after the first fight and used Bach’s in the interim and it didn’t make as much difference as the JG. But I haven’t tried it on the ear, only on the food so maybe that would work better.

We just got some of the Composure treats as recommended on here and the plan was to use them for Eko but today we gave each of them one an hour before their scheduled interaction, they are separated today but Oke’s out in the house while Eko is away and they played at the gate for a bit but they were both more nervous than usual. I’m hoping the composure treats will help in the long term. I’ll definitely check out that calming spray. Does is have the same effects as normal catnip? Eko gets a little extra feisty with catnip lol.

 

[ArtNJ]

Adult cats almost never attack kittens with intent to injure. After all if Eko had really wanted to hurt Oke, it would have taken just a few seconds right? Sometimes the adults are like "OK, THATS ENOUGH YOU LITTLE *&^!" and go after the kitten to teach it manners. I think that might be what is going on here -- a mistaken reaction to Oke's fear-related hissing to be sure, but not a genuine intent to fight/injure.

I'm not too worried about your situation now, because kittens are super adaptible, and I think Oke will eventually get over the fear.

I hope not, but if you are going to have problems, it would be later in life. I did have an older cat that would growl at a one year old that just wanted to play. When growled at, the one year old "saw red" and it all changed for him, he went from wanting to play to wanting to fight for real, and I had bite wounds twice. Cats that react poorly to being growled at are a real thing. However, it seems quite rare and I think its premature to think you'll have this problem later as I did.

Good luck!

 

[KelseyCat]

Adult cats almost never attack kittens with intent to injure. After all if Eko had really wanted to hurt Oke, it would have taken just a few seconds right? Sometimes the adults are like "OK, THATS ENOUGH YOU LITTLE *&^!" and go after the kitten to teach it manners. I think that might be what is going on here -- a mistaken reaction to Oke's fear-related hissing to be sure, but not a genuine intent to fight/injure.

I'm not too worried about your situation now, because kittens are super adaptible, and I think Oke will eventually get over the fear.

I hope not, but if you are going to have problems, it would be later in life. I did have an older cat that would growl at a one year old that just wanted to play. When growled at, the one year old "saw red" and it all changed for him, he went from wanting to play to wanting to fight for real, and I had bite wounds twice. Cats that react poorly to being growled at are a real thing. However, it seems quite rare and I think its premature to think you'll have this problem later as I did.

Good luck!

I sure hope you’re right. He is very aggressive during these times and it’s definitely different than when they’re wrestling and he’s getting annoyed. But Oke hasn’t gotten hurt, at least I haven’t found any marks on him (the first fight he had a small scratch on his face) but it’s all claws and no teeth. I think Eko is trying to scare him off but Oke is still unsure of the space and doesn’t know where to go to get away. The times he has run, Eko chases and they end up under a couch. The time it takes for each of them to decompress afterward is less each time, especially for Eko but Oke is so much more timid now and I feel bad. Do you think we just continue with supervised playtime and separate if/when the fighting starts?

 

[ArtNJ]

I sure hope you’re right. He is very aggressive during these times and it’s definitely different than when they’re wrestling and he’s getting annoyed. But Oke hasn’t gotten hurt, at least I haven’t found any marks on him (the first fight he had a small scratch on his face) but it’s all claws and no teeth. I think Eko is trying to scare him off but Oke is still unsure of the space and doesn’t know where to go to get away. The times he has run, Eko chases and they end up under a couch. The time it takes for each of them to decompress afterward is less each time, especially for Eko but Oke is so much more timid now and I feel bad. Do you think we just continue with supervised playtime and separate if/when the fighting starts?

Thats what I would do. Also, see if you can watch for signs that Eko is getting overwhelmed, moody, withdrawn, or whatnot. If they have had some time together and a positive experience, nothing wrong with calling it a bit early to "lock in" the positive experience. I mean, I'm not a fan of 5 minute sessions, don't think they do anything. But if you have a positive half hour or longer and sense that Eko might have had enough, then sure, why not call it?

 

[cat nap]

In the last few days Eko has finally gotten confident enough to play with the interactive toys when Oke is around. The problem is that poor Oke now seems traumatized and the second Eko makes a sudden move to play Oke gets very scared, hissing, ears flat, arched back, full body puff. He doesn’t realize that Eko is playing (it happened when Eko jumped down from the table to play with Oke when he turned his back, and when Eko pounced on a toy).

If this was all, I could handle it and work on building Oke’s confidence back up, but when Eko sees that defensive position and hears the little baby hiss, he sees red and a full fight breaks out. Luckily, Oke doesn’t fight back but he has taken some pretty hard hits before we can get something between them. Then he looks at me like I’m a stranger when I get him back to his safe room. I’m really worried about what would happen if Oke tried to fight back, I’m worried he’s going to get seriously hurt.

Hi K KelseyCat ...this actually still sounds like Play.
Granted, very rough play, but still play.
Even in play, young kittens at age 4.5 months, will still do the 'posturing' with fur up, halloween cat puff out, side ways hops, hisses, and even growls, too. Then tackles, tumbles, swats, swipes.

As long as both cats manage to separate,...and then come back together, later,...you should be okay.
Also, as long as Eko...lets up on the younger and smaller kitten, and does not cause him to yowl, cry out too loudly, or not let him get back up...meaning that he is not playing too aggressively with him.

When something like this happens, then wrap Eko in a towel, or blanket, ...and place him in a 'time out' room...for about 5 minutes...or 10 minutes until he calms down...and gets out of his 'playfully aggressive mode'.

If Eko is too hyper, and it's dangerous for you to hold him in the towel...then just use a big piece of cardboard...to place between the cat and kitten, and usher or move Eko towards the place you want him to go.
The cardboard ...also breaks his line of sight, towards the kitten, and causes Distraction, too.
Some people use large pillows, or bed sheet.

Having a lot of boxes, chairs, and other places to escape to ...and hide behind...helps to allow the kitten to escape.
Creating a sort of obstacle course for them to play around, helps too.

If you find that it's a lot easier to just pick up the kitten Oke, then that's okay, too.
Since you're still stopping the rough play, and taking him away.
But I would rather put Eko in his own room, since he sounds like he has to calm down, and learn to play less intensely....if he is actually 'attacking' ...and not just playing.

Does anyone have any suggestions about where to go from here? They really do enjoy playing together (a couple hours after their fight last night they we playing through the bars of the gate with zero negativity) but I don’t know how to desensitize Oke to Eko’s movements and not get startled. I can’t keep letting him get beat up when Eko snaps. And I want him to be confident and not always on guard. But I also don’t want him spending his entire kittenhood in a separate room. Should we go back to full separation for a longer period of time? Should we talk to the vet about Eko’s outbursts, maybe it’s time for medication? Is it time to consider hiring a behaviorist?

Could you post a few videos,...so we could comment on them...and actually see what is going on?
Seeing videos of the cats really helps in understanding the size differences, too.

Here's some info on how to do that:
How To Upload And Add Videos To Your Posts – TheCatSite Articles
Mostly people just host their videos onto youtube, or gify...and just 'embed them' ...(the 'three little dots' beside the smiley icon....where you get a drop down mentu that says 'insert media')....into their posts.
I think you may be able to upload directly, but it's fairly small, at 25MB, ...and has to be in mp4 format....I think.
Reduce Video File Size Online, Make Video Smaller (MP4, AVI, MOV, MPEG) | VideoSmaller
(I'm actually not too sure of all the steps involved.)

Even photos help, but for me, videos help more.
How To Add A Picture To Your Forum Post – TheCatSite Articles

Take your time, with this all.
If you do have some extra time, then I'd suggest watching this specific youtube video,
called "Introducing Bengal cat to a new kitten for first time" by the "The Cat Behaviour Channel"
He actually rushes the intros, a bit too fast, but it's still good to see the kitten and cat interactions.
Tell me what you think, if it looks similar to your cats.

 

[KelseyCat]

Hi K KelseyCat ...this actually still sounds like Play.
Granted, very rough play, but still play.
Even in play, young kittens at age 4.5 months, will still do the 'posturing' with fur up, halloween cat puff out, side ways hops, hisses, and even growls, too. Then tackles, tumbles, swats, swipes.

As long as both cats manage to separate,...and then come back together, later,...you should be okay.
Also, as long as Eko...lets up on the younger and smaller kitten, and does not cause him to yowl, cry out too loudly, or not let him get back up...meaning that he is not playing too aggressively with him.

When something like this happens, then wrap Eko in a towel, or blanket, ...and place him in a 'time out' room...for about 5 minutes...or 10 minutes until he calms down...and gets out of his 'playfully aggressive mode'.

If Eko is too hyper, and it's dangerous for you to hold him in the towel...then just use a big piece of cardboard...to place between the cat and kitten, and usher or move Eko towards the place you want him to go.
The cardboard ...also breaks his line of sight, towards the kitten, and causes Distraction, too.
Some people use large pillows, or bed sheet.

Having a lot of boxes, chairs, and other places to escape to ...and hide behind...helps to allow the kitten to escape.
Creating a sort of obstacle course for them to play around, helps too.

If you find that it's a lot easier to just pick up the kitten Oke, then that's okay, too.
Since you're still stopping the rough play, and taking him away.
But I would rather put Eko in his own room, since he sounds like he has to calm down, and learn to play less intensely....if he is actually 'attacking' ...and not just playing.

Could you post a few videos,...so we could comment on them...and actually see what is going on?
Seeing videos of the cats really helps in understanding the size differences, too.

Here's some info on how to do that:
How To Upload And Add Videos To Your Posts – TheCatSite Articles
Mostly people just host their videos onto youtube, or gify...and just 'embed them' ...(the 'three little dots' beside the smiley icon....where you get a drop down mentu that says 'insert media')....into their posts.
I think you may be able to upload directly, but it's fairly small, at 25MB, ...and has to be in mp4 format....I think.
Reduce Video File Size Online, Make Video Smaller (MP4, AVI, MOV, MPEG) | VideoSmaller
(I'm actually not too sure of all the steps involved.)

Even photos help, but for me, videos help more.
How To Add A Picture To Your Forum Post – TheCatSite Articles

Take your time, with this all.
If you do have some extra time, then I'd suggest watching this specific youtube video,
called "Introducing Bengal cat to a new kitten for first time" by the "The Cat Behaviour Channel"
He actually rushes the intros, a bit too fast, but it's still good to see the kitten and cat interactions.
Tell me what you think, if it looks similar to your cats.

I hope that it’s play, but Eko does not react the same way he does when they’re wrestling. He has acted like this before when a stranger cat came up to the patio door, same noises, ears flat, full puff and he charged the door and smacked it as hard as he could. The only difference then was that he peed out of fear and we have yet to find pee after these incidences (although I do smell an odd odor when I grab Oke to get him away).

The video of the bengal cat is exactly how they look when they’re playing but the “attacks” keep happening when they aren’t currently interacting. Eko will puff up and charge from across the room doing a low yowl while smacking Oke who has gone full body Halloween with wide eyes and frozen in place. Oke also starts yowling and continues after I pick him up to get him away. He doesn’t un-puff or retract any nails for at least 5 minutes after he’s back in his safe room. During that time he has to climb to get off the ground and almost circles me like he doesn’t know who I am. Eko will follow me while I carry him away, still puffed and growling and charging to block my path. My husband will shoo him away and get snapped at and yowled at. He tried to stop Eko with his hands the first time and ended up bleeding. Eko paces, still puffed, around the house for about 5 minutes then settles but still paces to check every room like he’s trying to make sure he’s gone. Both cats have done the playful puff (with me, not each other) and it’s definitely not as puff

I was thinking about setting up a camera when we have them together because it happens so fast and scares me so much I’m not going to take time to get my phone out.

I would like to do the time out for Eko but he is almost 16lbs and we would get hurt if we physically removed him. For reference, Oke is 4.5 months old but he is almost 9lbs already (there must be some giant tomcats running around my community because his mom was small/average size but the kittens are HUGE).

We have blankets and tote lids out to break up the fights but they always get away from us so fast. And once we block Eko he gets more upset and runs around it or jumps up on something to get past it and back to hitting Oke. We’re making the basement living room into a more controlled environment so we can try to stop things before they start. I just hope Oke isn’t going to be afraid of Eko forever. When they play we get so excited that Eko finally has a friend but now we’re not sure they’ll ever be friends.

 

[KelseyCat]

Thats what I would do. Also, see if you can watch for signs that Eko is getting overwhelmed, moody, withdrawn, or whatnot. If they have had some time together and a positive experience, nothing wrong with calling it a bit early to "lock in" the positive experience. I mean, I'm not a fan of 5 minute sessions, don't think they do anything. But if you have a positive half hour or longer and sense that Eko might have had enough, then sure, why not call it?

That’s a good idea, I’m hoping we can end it on a positive more often. Sometimes we do, they don’t fight every time they’re together. We’re definitely watching body language and probably stepping in too often because sometimes Eko is hard to read. But I was thinking about setting a camera up so we can watch the playback and see if there’s something we missed. This last fight, I noticed Oke got scared before Eko did and as I moved over to pick him up and prevent the fight, my movement got Eko’s attention and he charged right past me. It just happens so fast.

 

[cat nap]

My husband will shoo him away and get snapped at and yowled at. He tried to stop Eko with his hands the first time and ended up bleeding. Eko paces, still puffed, around the house for about 5 minutes then settles but still paces to check every room like he’s trying to make sure he’s gone. Both cats have done the playful puff (with me, not each other) and it’s definitely not as puff

It sounds like Eko goes into full on 'fight' mode...with his 'fight or flight'...kicking in, and his adrenaline rushing.

Could you try doing some 'clicker training' with Eko.
There are some really good videos, on youtube for that.
Just to see if he could focus, and calm down with treats.
Check out Post #53 of this thread: Introducing Cats (4 months in)
The member posts a helpful video on clicker training.

Also, make sure to tire out Eko...before any face to face interactions...with a lot of 'cat wand toy' Play.
This way, he won't be so full of energy, or go 'full on towards' the kitten Oke.

I was thinking about setting up a camera when we have them together because it happens so fast and scares me so much I’m not going to take time to get my phone out.

Setting up a camera sounds like an excellent idea.

I would like to do the time out for Eko but he is almost 16lbs and we would get hurt if we physically removed him. For reference, Oke is 4.5 months old but he is almost 9lbs already (there must be some giant tomcats running around my community because his mom was small/average size but the kittens are HUGE).

Wow, that is kind of big, mostly for the kitten at that age.
But that is also good, since Oke,...even though twice as light,...could still manage to 'hold his own' with his big brother...hopefully.
Depending on how "full on Eko decides to run at smaller Oke"...and if he knocks him down, or turns, and tags him, and then runs off.
(I guess there are some huge tomcats around, your community, then. )

We have blankets and tote lids out to break up the fights but they always get away from us so fast. And once we block Eko he gets more upset and runs around it or jumps up on something to get past it and back to hitting Oke. We’re making the basement living room into a more controlled environment so we can try to stop things before they start. I just hope Oke isn’t going to be afraid of Eko forever. When they play we get so excited that Eko finally has a friend but now we’re not sure they’ll ever be friends.

I think they will be friends.
I also think the advice that ArtNJ gave you....of trying to always end the interactions ...on a positive ...is extremely helpful.

.....Also, see if you can watch for signs that Eko is getting overwhelmed, moody, withdrawn, or whatnot. If they have had some time together and a positive experience, nothing wrong with calling it a bit early to "lock in" the positive experience....

If you can ...end them on a positive...then it will build up Confidence in Oke.
And also prevent Eko...from taking it too far with his smaller (for now) sized brother.

 

[KelseyCat]

It sounds like Eko goes into full on 'fight' mode...with his 'fight or flight'...kicking in, and his adrenaline rushing.

Could you try doing some 'clicker training' with Eko.
There are some really good videos, on youtube for that.
Just to see if he could focus, and calm down with treats.
Check out Post #53 of this thread: Introducing Cats (4 months in)
The member posts a helpful video on clicker training.

Also, make sure to tire out Eko...before any face to face interactions...with a lot of 'cat wand toy' Play.
This way, he won't be so full of energy, or go 'full on towards' the kitten Oke.

Setting up a camera sounds like an excellent idea.

Wow, that is kind of big, mostly for the kitten at that age.
But that is also good, since Oke,...even though twice as light,...could still manage to 'hold his own' with his big brother...hopefully.
Depending on how "full on Eko decides to run at smaller Oke"...and if he knocks him down, or turns, and tags him, and then runs off.
(I guess there are some huge tomcats around, your community, then. )

I think they will be friends.
I also think the advice that ArtNJ gave you....of trying to always end the interactions ...on a positive ...is extremely helpful.

If you can ...end them on a positive...then it will build up Confidence in Oke.
And also prevent Eko...from taking it too far with his smaller (for now) sized brother.

I really appreciate all your help and input, I’m just feeling lost and guilty. I wanted to take the intro super slow so we could potentially avoid these kinds of problems and now it doesn’t seem like it mattered and we could’ve had them together when Oke was smaller and less intimidating.

But I think the clicker training might be worth trying. Eko has a hard time with treats after having 6 teeth extracted in January. But we have some lickable tube treats that we haven’t tried since the beginning when he was too nervous to eat anything, I think he’d go for it now (except he’s on a diet so he’ll have to lose a few calories from his dinner). He already knows how to sit and give his paw but I’m not sure he can focus when Oke is out.

He is is really surprising me with this level of aggression because he’s never been a fighter, he tries to act tough and growl at the UPS truck but always ends up hiding under the couch. He’s always been a hider.

We are finally able to step up the playtime which I hope is helping. Something clicked in the past couple of weeks and he has a lot more energy and wants to play all the time. It seems like he’s excited about Oke being around, but it might also be the warmer, sunnier weather. He has little interest in wand toys but we have a whole setup we made with this “stick under the blanket” game that he goes crazy over. And his ripple rug.

And yes, Oke is some kind of monster kitten. He was over 2lbs at 6 weeks, 2.6 at 8 weeks when we adopted him and has gained about a pound every 2 weeks since. If I didn’t know his backstory I’d think the rescue has his age wrong but he was found as a newborn (with mom and litter mates). And he can hold his own but he seems more confused than anything because his buddy all of a sudden changes. I’m glad he’s not fighting back because I feel like that would result in injuries.

I’ll keep you posted as we make some progress, it just feels so unpredictable.

 

[Furballsmom]

To answer your question about the spray, you might not want to use it if catnip causes more hyper behavior.

 

[KelseyCat]

To answer your question about the spray, you might not want to use it if catnip causes more hyper behavior.

Thanks! I’ve been testing regular catnip with each of them separately to see if they would mellow out after the initial craziness but their reactions were a bit inconsistent lol. We had a really good play session today, the combo of composure treats, JG stress stopper and the calming music on YouTube worked great. And we were able to end on a positive!

 

[cat nap]

I really appreciate all your help and input, I’m just feeling lost and guilty. I wanted to take the intro super slow so we could potentially avoid these kinds of problems and now it doesn’t seem like it mattered and we could’ve had them together when Oke was smaller and less intimidating.

Hi K KelseyCat ...we all feel lost and a lot of stress around cat intros, kitten intros, cat to dog intros, cat to puppy.
I think it's kind of the normal feelings we get,...unless (like I mentioned on another thread)...you're an actual robot.
Then I'd get worried. (joking.)

I think you're doing everything correctly so I don't think you have anything to feel guilty about.
Eko sounds like he is just a bit of more sensitive or a bit of a 'reactive cat'...and maybe he's more into 'guarding his territory'...especially since you mentioned that UPS truck incident.
(He reminds me of a 'guard dog' ...but in cat form. maybe.)

I think it's good that you took the cat intros slow, since Oke was a big kitten, anyhow,....maybe Eko sees him more as a 'cat'...versus a kitten....so he tends to be a bit more 'vigilant' and 'dominating'...in this regard.
Dominance does play a role in setting up home hierarchies in cats....though sometimes the roles get reversed, too.
And sometimes, it's a give and take...in how the cats act...depending on the day.

But I think the clicker training might be worth trying. Eko has a hard time with treats after having 6 teeth extracted in January. But we have some lickable tube treats that we haven’t tried since the beginning when he was too nervous to eat anything, I think he’d go for it now (except he’s on a diet so he’ll have to lose a few calories from his dinner). He already knows how to sit and give his paw but I’m not sure he can focus when Oke is out.

I've never tried clicker training yet, so I'm kind of impressed that Eko can already sit and give his paw. That's awesome.
I've seen it done, with people online, using long spoons, with wet cat food...but yes, you would have to take into consideration...the daily calories that the cats are given. That's a good point.
I don't think I would do the clicker training when Oke is out...it would be way too tempting, and distracting.

He is is really surprising me with this level of aggression because he’s never been a fighter, he tries to act tough and growl at the UPS truck but always ends up hiding under the couch. He’s always been a hider.

Could you tell me more about growling at the UPS truck? (not laughing at your cat, just visualizing a cat growling at mailman, or delivery person,...and then running to hide.)
I mean, is the truck driver delivering packages to your door? Walking right up to your door?
Or does he hear the truck pull up, or air brakes, or something?

It sounds quite interesting, as your mention, on your other thread...of having to 'disconnect the doorbell??'
Was the sound of the door bell very loud and scary? (I have a very old musical one, and can change the tunes...but I'm not sure...if my cats run and hide, probably. I'll have to notice that next time.)

He has little interest in wand toys but we have a whole setup we made with this “stick under the blanket” game that he goes crazy over. And his ripple rug.

I don't have a ripple rug, but I do know what they look like.
So are your cats really into this ripple rug...and how does it work.
Do they pounce on it? hide in it?
(I don't get how it works)

 

[KelseyCat]

I've never tried clicker training yet, so I'm kind of impressed that Eko can already sit and give his paw. That's awesome.
I've seen it done, with people online, using long spoons, with wet cat food...but yes, you would have to take into consideration...the daily calories that the cats are given. That's a good point.
I don't think I would do the clicker training when Oke is out...it would be way too tempting, and distracting.

We got clickers in hopes of training and/or using them as a distraction with Eko and our previous cat (he was the instigator then) but never ended up using them because the noise was just too abrupt for Eko. My husband always had dogs before we moved in together so he trained Eko the same way, say command, show him the task, give the treat, repeat a million times. So he taught him to sit and give his paw before he could have a treat, except he never liked treats so we used cat grass (he is a super weird cat). His vet wanted him off the cat grass for a bit to test if it was making him get sick so he doesn’t do his tricks much anymore but I was thinking of reintroducing the grass and see how he does, it really is his favorite thing ever. The older cat (who has since passed) even learned to give her paw just from watching him, it was crazy. I never made her do it because she hated her feet touched but she saw him do it and started doing it too. They’re such strange creatures, I can’t help but love them.

Could you tell me more about growling at the UPS truck? (not laughing at your cat, just visualizing a cat growling at mailman, or delivery person,...and then running to hide.)
I mean, is the truck driver delivering packages to your door? Walking right up to your door?
Or does he hear the truck pull up, or air brakes, or something?

It sounds quite interesting, as your mention, on your other thread...of having to 'disconnect the doorbell??'
Was the sound of the door bell very loud and scary? (I have a very old musical one, and can change the tunes...but I'm not sure...if my cats run and hide, probably. I'll have to notice that next time.)

I don’t know when his skiddishness started, we found him at 6 months when we lived in Nebraska (in a house) then moved to Kansas (an apartment but larger than the house at least) a year later and that’s when I noticed it more, I don’t remember it happening in the old house. Our apartment had windows almost down to the floor so he could look out all day. We were at a corner so he could look straight down the main street and could see any traffic coming in the apartment complex. He kept growling and I would run over and look and not see anything until I finally figured out that the UPS truck was around the corner and several buildings down. If he stopped out front and came towards the door he was growl and run and hide. He would react the same to fedex or Amazon if they came up but not just driving by. I didn’t realize until we moved into our new house last year (permanently this time, I don’t want him to have to move again) that UPS honks when they arrive so he knew they were coming. I think maybe the dark truck looks like a giant animal but who knows. He growls at anyone coming too close to the door. He really is a guard cat.

The doorbell has just always bothered him, in the apartment we had maintenance or pest control doing mandatory visits almost once a month so when he heard the doorbell he thought a stranger was coming in. And we couldn’t do anything about it other than take the day off work to make sure he felt as safe as possible. He’s the same way if someone knocks but disconnecting the doorbell has stopped about 90% of the noise from deliveries (we order a lot online) so now he’s not under the couch several days a week. We’ve been in the new house a year and not a single person besides the two of us has been inside this house, and he’s still scared if someone comes to the door. He doesn’t growl at the mail lady anymore but will if it’s a different person that walks through the yard. We even got new smoke detectors that give a verbal warning before the regular alarm so you can silence it if it’s from cooking or something but he’s still terrified of that.

don't have a ripple rug, but I do know what they look like.
So are your cats really into this ripple rug...and how does it work.
Do they pounce on it? hide in it?
(I don't get how it works)

He’s too big to go inside the ripple rug. Ha ha ha! But we figured out that he likes prey that hides and peeks out of openings. So we put an old blanket down on the floor and put the wand toy stick end under the blanket and make it “peek out and run back in” and he stalks and pounces and slides across the blanket. It was the first game we ever really got him to play. So we got the ripple rug thinking it would work for a similar game. He likes it, not as much a the blanket but the variety helps keep him active. Oke loves going in it and popping out so hopefully they’ll play together with it, unless Oke keeps growing like this then we’ll need to make our own jumbo version. I should get a video of his blanket game, sometimes people think their cats don’t like to play but sometimes you just have to figure out what makes them tick.

Thank you for the encouragement and for letting me ramble on about how weird of a cat Eko is. We did have a great interaction with both kitties today so hopefully we’re on the right track!

 

[Furballsmom]

Oh wow! I had no idea there are smoke alarms like that--both Poppycat and I absolutely hate the noise so thank you for that tip

 

[KelseyCat]

Oh wow! I had no idea there are smoke alarms like that--both Poppycat and I absolutely hate the noise so thank you for that tip

They’re the Google Nest ones, not cheap but we figured it was worth it. Of course he’s still scared of it and we always set it off when we’re cooking.

 

[Julesbiscuits]

K KelseyCat Hey I was just wondering how your situation turned out? I'm concerned we may have a similar situation on our hands.

 

[Alldara]

K KelseyCat If catnip makes him more hyper the best way to use it is to give it a few hours before an interaction, help him run his energy out and then have the intro session. (For cats that it calms you give it just before or during the session).

It would be best if you could build some confidence with Eko in the dining room solo. Some new enrichment or play sessions there.

If you play with both cats, and then have them interact, do they still play? Do they get to the point of resting in the same room?

A trick I've used formerly if a hard surface block is too much for the cat is using a blanket or towel. You dont have to hold the cat, just don't use if stairs nearby.

I've found Feliway Multicat formula really helpful. Also ensuring that there are many spaces to go through, around and under.

 

[KelseyCat]

K KelseyCat Hey I was just wondering how your situation turned out? I'm concerned we may have a similar situation on our hands.

Julesbiscuits I'm so sorry I haven't had a chance to reply sooner. The month of March is the only time during the year when my work schedule completely takes over my life. I wanted to make sure I had time to give you a thoughtful reply. But I just read through your thread and I see you ended up taking the younger cat back to the rescue. I'm sure that was a hard decision, but you have to do what's best for your current cat and your family.
I can't imagine going through what we went through with our boys with a baby on top of everything. I was only working here and there (from home) and my husband works from home and we literally had nothing else going on in our lives LOL. I don't think we could've managed a difficult cat intro if we couldn't dedicate all the time we could. It sounds like you made the right choice and Jonesey will find the perfect place where he has another young cat to be crazy with. One of our saving graces was that our kitten was pretty chill, he had his moments of crazy zoomies but he chilled a lot and did ok with the confinement.

But to answer your question, (and for anyone else who stumbles on this thread, which I started writing out an update for like a year ago but life got in the way) we got lucky. Our boys are best buds but honestly, we got lucky and I think most cats in a similar situation would end up tolerating each other and coexisting separately (in the best case scenario). I never expected my boys to be so happy together. Never did I think they would curl up and sleep together or happily play, chase and wrestle like they do. We got lucky.
If I had to give one piece of overall advice to anyone: be flexible. Just because so-and-so or some expert says "this is the best way to do cat introductions" doesn't mean it always works. I took all the advice from JG's book and videos, I tried out every suggestion I was given here and not everything worked for my boys the way it does for other cats. We constantly reevaluated everything we were doing and changing things to see if that was the key. We thought the cat music was helping, but really it made Eko more on-edge because he couldn't hear his surroundings as well. I thought the Feliway was causing problems (Eko kept getting a runny eye) but within 3 hours of unplugging it, we had aggression. The big key was to NEVER let another fight happen, at least as much as we could avoid. We ended up with a full on "feral cat chase" three times, after that we learned every possible trigger, every slight ear movement and we separated before anything happened. And we worked to build Oke's confidence back up because he was fearful for the first time ever. We kept them in a tight, controlled environment (our basement living room with every under blocked off, blinds closed, two humans and 100% focus on body language. We wanted to play with them (like everything says to) but everytime we tried, someone moved too quickly and spooked the other cat. So we just let them explore. We continued keeping Oke confined for 4 months after their last fight and only allowed extremely supervised encounters that entire time (luckily we only had one escape and Oke ran into an empty bedroom and the door was closed). After we saw Eko relaxing and not being so on-edge, we started letting them interact in different areas of the house, the very last place being the dining room where the initial fight happened. We NEVER opened the patio door again for at least a year and we still don't leave it open often because it stresses Eko out. When we started letting Oke out in the whole house full-time, we alternated one of us sleeping on the couch to supervise overnight in case we had issues. Oke was adopted in January and we never left them alone unsupervised until July. It was a long road.

But in the end, the crazy helicopter cat-parenting paid off. Our boys are actually friends. The downside is Eko never learned how to play with other cats because he grew up outside first and then with our late cranky old-lady-cat and Oke was confined for so long, he didn't learn much either. So they learned from each other and play REALLY rough. I'm scared of ever bringing in another kitten because they play so hard. Over the two years since the very first fight, we had some back slides, there was a while where if anything scared Eko (which is a lot, like fireworks or the neighbor's cat outside or someone doing construction) he would immediately look at Oke as if he was a stranger and that we was the source of the fear. Then we'd have to distract or separate. It's taken a lot of time, but now it rarely happens, we just have to be ready to separate if necessary. Oke has been through a lot, he spent 5 days in the emergency hospital in Jan '22 and then had to be confined until he smelled normal again (but was still confined overnight because of litterbox mishaps) then spent a week in May '22 super sick at home being nursed back to health with constant vet visits. But through all of it, Oke stayed tolerant of Eko even when he was being a pest, so having on cat who is chill, really helps. We still have to be careful after vet trips and always keep them separated for a short time since they smell funny and we're cautious if we know something scary is going to happen (like 4th of July or the Superbowl (we live outside of Kansas City)) but we even had major construction in our house for 4 days and they were scared but not aggressive with each other. Even when I brought in a stray cat to stay in the garage for a couple weeks, they did ok.

I feel like I'm rambling, and Jules, I'm sorry your situation didn't work out, but please don't give up on finding a playmate for Misfit.You'll find the right fit. Eko was bored and lonely before we got Oke and I think if we hadn't, he would be a depressed blob. He loves having a brother and chirps for him all the time trying to get him to wake up and play and licks his head like a baby every chance he gets (which is silly because Oke is HUGE). He was never this active before, and we played all the time, but we're not cats and he needed a cat friend.

I hope anyone who stumbles on this thread finds a little bit of hope with the information I've given. Just be flexible and do your best. But if it's not working, it's not working. If we couldn't put everything in our lives on hold for 8+ months, we wouldn't be where we are today, and not everyone has the luxury of being able to do that. Some cats are just high-anxiety and don't adapt well. Eko showed every sign of being a single cat forever, but the glimpses of happiness between the two cats gave us hope we'd get there eventually.