Bottomless Pit

[ldg]

Rabbit meat doesn't contain enough taurine, remember?

That's not correct. It does.

But it goes to show how grinding, storage, or bacteria can affect the nutritional content of food. They're not sure what the problem was.

For those that don't know, a UC Davis study was conducted with the intent to analyze impact of raw diets on IBD. I don't know what genius decided that just ONE protein should be fed, but they wanted to develop a "gold standard" raw diet. They fed ONLY whole ground rabbit. One of the cats died of a taurine deficiency!

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline health_Glasgow.pdf

How could a wild type diet result in taurine deficiency? The raw rabbit diet we fed contained the minimal requirement of taurine and was therefore not considered deficient for a highly digestible diet. However, the amount of taurine available to the cat in a diet depends on a number of factors, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, and what other ingredients are present in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed (Backus et al., 1998) (Park et al, 1999). It is also possible that bacteria in the carcass of the ground rabbits or in the intestine of the cats broke down some of the taurine. Neither of these circumstances would be detrimental to diets containing excess levels of taurine, but would be detrimental if the diet was borderline deficient. Vitamin E levels in our raw rabbit diet were low and this can cause the meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground (Lambert et al., 2001).

I've always had the impression that you could feed exactly just 80/10/5/5 and that was complete. Some people recommend other supplements, sure, but they were only suggestions. I remember when I started at this forum/another cat forum that plenty of times it was recommended 80/10/5/5 only. It was only in the past year or less that sardines or eggs were more strongly recommended.

I've never seen anywhere that recommends just 80/10/5/5 without eggs or sardines. The 80/10/5/5 diet provides no vitamin D. Many people when casually discussing raw diets talk about just 80/10/5/5 not needing supplements - but when questioned further on the topic state that they don't consider eggs or sardines "supplements," simply part of the balanced prey model raw diet.

I read through Dr Pierson's recipes and didn't see liver anywhere.

http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#The_Recipe

3 pounds of poultry thigh meat/bones/skin

or

2.25 lbs of whole carcass ground rabbit + 0.75 lbs of boneless chicken or turkey meat/skin/fat (see reasons above):

1 cup water (or, preferably, more if your cat will eat it with more water)

2 eggs - use the yolk raw but lightly cook the white

5000 mg fish oil (a good source of essential fatty acids - note that this is increased from the original amount of 2,000 mg - if your cat does not like fish, it is ok to use only 2,000 mg) Do NOT use cod liver oil!

400 IU (268 mg) Vitamin E (powdered E in capsules is the easiest to use)

50 mg Vitamin B-complex (capsules or tablets)

2,000 mg taurine (use powdered - either in capsules or loose)

3/4 tsp Morton Lite salt with iodine when using chicken but not when using rabbit (contains potassium and sodium - make sure that it contains iodine - see below for further explanation.)

For people living outside of the United States who cannot source Morton Lite Salt with iodine, use 1/2 tsp of regular salt (sodium chloride) with iodine.

Liver - If using ground rabbit (which includes liver) from wholefoods4pets.com, do not add additional liver. If using chicken legs, thighs or a whole chicken carcass minus the organs, add 4 ounces of chicken livers per 3 lb of meat/bones/skin.

Ingredients/recipe continued....

 

[ldg]

Just for the record, even though I feed primarily a (mostly) boneless version of prey model raw, because of the nutritional factors in factory farmed meat (which is what I can mostly afford), the issues of storage, freezing, dethawing, refreezing, etc., I provide a homemade supplement that includes taurine, vitamin E, manganese, iodine, and a B-complex. I also provide 500mg of either salmon oil or krill oil daily. (I also feed egg yolks and sardines, and they get additional choline from the egg yolk lecithin I provide for hairball control).

Further, farmed rabbits - farmed anything - will not have the same nutrient profile as an animal in the wild. I see many people mentioning that rabbit is a very lean meat. That's true of wild rabbit, but not at all true of farmed rabbit.

 

[minka]

That's not correct. It does.

But it goes to show how grinding, storage, or bacteria can affect the nutritional content of food. They're not sure what the problem was.

For those that don't know, a UC Davis study was conducted with the intent to analyze impact of raw diets on IBD. I don't know what genius decided that just ONE protein should be fed, but they wanted to develop a "gold standard" raw diet. They fed ONLY whole ground rabbit. One of the cats died of a taurine deficiency!

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline health_Glasgow.pdf

How could a wild type diet result in taurine deficiency? The raw rabbit diet we fed contained the minimal requirement of taurine and was therefore not considered deficient for a highly digestible diet. However, the amount of taurine available to the cat in a diet depends on a number of factors, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, and what other ingredients are present in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed (Backus et al., 1998) (Park et al, 1999). It is also possible that bacteria in the carcass of the ground rabbits or in the intestine of the cats broke down some of the taurine. Neither of these circumstances would be detrimental to diets containing excess levels of taurine, but would be detrimental if the diet was borderline deficient. Vitamin E levels in our raw rabbit diet were low and this can cause the meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground (Lambert et al., 2001).

To me that only confirms that rabbit does not contain enough taurine. They *thought* it had enough, but because it was not straight from the field and onto the plate, it did not end up containing enough because for whatever reason rabbit has less taurine than other animals. Feeding a rotation would fix that issue because the other animals would make up for it.
I'm pretty sure there is even a chart somewhere that compares the nutrient levels of a bunch of different small animals. I think it was posted here previously to show the protein/fat/bone/carb levels.

I've never seen anywhere that recommends just 80/10/5/5 without eggs or sardines. The 80/10/5/5 diet provides no vitamin D. Many people when casually discussing raw diets talk about just 80/10/5/5 not needing supplements - but when questioned further on the topic state that they don't consider eggs or sardines "supplements," simply part of the balanced prey model raw diet.

If I have time (because it would be a pain) I can go through super old threads and find examples of people suggesting the 80/1/5/5 by itself. Believe me, that was the only reason why I started considering a raw diet for Grim because I thought 'oh, this makes sense. If you feed what they eat in the wild they don't need any supplements, so it must be more healthful.'

I read through Dr Pierson's recipes and didn't see liver anywhere.

http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood#The_Recipe

3 pounds of poultry thigh meat/bones/skin

or

2.25 lbs of whole carcass ground rabbit + 0.75 lbs of boneless chicken or turkey meat/skin/fat (see reasons above):

1 cup water (or, preferably, more if your cat will eat it with more water)

2 eggs - use the yolk raw but lightly cook the white

5000 mg fish oil (a good source of essential fatty acids - note that this is increased from the original amount of 2,000 mg - if your cat does not like fish, it is ok to use only 2,000 mg) Do NOT use cod liver oil!

400 IU (268 mg) Vitamin E (powdered E in capsules is the easiest to use)

50 mg Vitamin B-complex (capsules or tablets)

2,000 mg taurine (use powdered - either in capsules or loose)

3/4 tsp Morton Lite salt with iodine when using chicken but not when using rabbit (contains potassium and sodium - make sure that it contains iodine - see below for further explanation.)

For people living outside of the United States who cannot source Morton Lite Salt with iodine, use 1/2 tsp of regular salt (sodium chloride) with iodine.

Liver - If using ground rabbit (which includes liver) from wholefoods4pets.com, do not add additional liver. If using chicken legs, thighs or a whole chicken carcass minus the organs, add 4 ounces of chicken livers per 3 lb of meat/bones/skin.

Ingredients/recipe continued....

Oh, hmm, I must have been tired. I had looked at the Whole Food Pets website and didn't see liver listed, but I guess it's because they forgot to include a comma in their list.

 

[ldg]

To me that only confirms that rabbit does not contain enough taurine. They *thought* it had enough, but because it was not straight from the field and onto the plate, it did not end up containing enough because for whatever reason rabbit has less taurine than other animals. Feeding a rotation would fix that issue because the other animals would make up for it.

But to say "Rabbit is different from other meats though. For some reason, it doesn't quite have all the nutrients a cat needs all on its own" is, IMO, a far cry from saying ground, frozen rabbit may not have enough taurine. (Though even that isn't actually accurate: the postulation is that it was low in vitamin E, not taurine):
.

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ccah/local-assets/pdfs/Role_of_diet_feline health_Glasgow.pdf

How could a wild type diet result in taurine deficiency? The raw rabbit diet we fed contained the minimal requirement of taurine and was therefore not considered deficient for a highly digestible diet. However, the amount of taurine available to the cat in a diet depends on a number of factors, such as the amount of protein, the quality of the protein, whether the diet is cooked or raw, and what other ingredients are present in the diet that might increase the amount of taurine needed (Backus et al., 1998) (Park et al, 1999). It is also possible that bacteria in the carcass of the ground rabbits or in the intestine of the cats broke down some of the taurine. Neither of these circumstances would be detrimental to diets containing excess levels of taurine, but would be detrimental if the diet was borderline deficient. Vitamin E levels in our raw rabbit diet were low and this can cause the meat to lose taurine as it is processed and ground (Lambert et al., 2001).

.

I'm pretty sure there is even a chart somewhere that compares the nutrient levels of a bunch of different small animals. I think it was posted here previously to show the protein/fat/bone/carb levels.

There's this: http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/zoo/WholePreyFinal02May29.pdf

summarized at Rodentpro: http://www.rodentpro.com/qpage_articles_03.asp

Tissue percentages of organs, bone, and "rest of animal" of rat, mouse, and rabbit: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/up...ge-of-some-Common-Prey-of-the-Cat-06-2002.pdf

And this chart of the macronutrient content of various proteins I put together:

Macronutrient Content of Proteins w wild rabbit.JP

• ldg
• Mar 23, 2013

I can't compare amounts of taurine, because the USDA doesn't track taurine, and I don't know of any resource that provides amounts of taurine in comparison (that includes rabbit).

If I have time (because it would be a pain) I can go through super old threads and find examples of people suggesting the 80/1/5/5 by itself. Believe me, that was the only reason why I started considering a raw diet for Grim because I thought 'oh, this makes sense. If you feed what they eat in the wild they don't need any supplements, so it must be more healthful.'

OK, but what's the point of digging up old threads where people say this? I believe they exist, I'm sure people say that. But are they right? That's the question.

Again, prey model raw is not whole animal. :dk: I don't know where the vitamin D comes from in a wild cat's diet - some organs, maybe; perhaps the skin of their prey? Maybe they eat bird eggs.

But this is the vitamin D profile of select items for which the USDA has information. You can do a quick google yourself, of course, it's quite easy to confirm that vitamin D is not prevalent in meat-based sources other than fish/fish oils and eggs. In fact, it's not prevalent in much - which is why it's added to so many things we eat. Milk is "fortified" with vitamin D.

Vitamin D.JPG

• ldg
• Mar 23, 2013

IMO, many raw feeders say a balanced raw diet that follows 80/10/5/5 doesn't need to be supplemented. The key there is "balanced," and they mean "balanced" to include some type of oily fish like sardines and eggs.

 

[Willowy]

Can cats synthesize vitamin D from sun exposure like most animals? That would explain why housecats would need supplementation and outdoor cats wouldn't. . .

ETA: Well, Google is my friend . I guess they don't, although there's a lot of weird ideas out there. Apparently they get it "from their diet", although what part of the diet isn't mentioned. Beef liver has about 40 IU per 3 oz. An egg yolk has about 40 IU. 1.75 oz of sardines has about 250 IU. NRC says cats have a minimum need of 227.3 IU per pound of food. If an adult cat eats 4 oz a day (just for easy math :tongue2, he'd need, at minimum, 56.8 IU a day. Even one egg yolk a day wouldn't give enough of it. So where do wild cats get enough vitamin D? I don't know! :dk: Unless they live somewhere with a good sardine supply :lol3:.

ETA (again): I guess kidney is a decent source, too. So if they eat the whole animal, the kidney and liver together add up to enough, maybe?

 

[auntie crazy]

The taurine levels in a whole ground rabbit carcass - the only rabbit taurine data I have - are about twice the levels of whole chicken breast meat and about a third the levels of an entire non-ground chicken carcass (Taurine Concentrations in Animal Feed Ingredients; Cooking Influences Taurine Content); which is to say, rabbit is a very healthy addition to a cat's diet but - like any other meat - should never make up the sole protein source of said diet.

Ground diets contain supplements because the act of grinding the food degrades the nutrient content, and (IMO) because they appeal to folks who want precise recipes with precise measurements and who are, for a variety of reasons, uncomfortable with the notion that a diet that balances ingredients without attempting to track individual nutrients - aka, a PMR 80/10/5/5 diet - will provide our carnivorous friends with everything they need to thrive.

As a PMR feeder, I do not offer my cats eggs or crickets because I believe they contain anything critical to a balanced diet, I offer them because they up the variety component of my cats' diet, and variety is critical to providing adequate nutrition. And the only reason I consider the Omega 3 content of sardines important is to counter the unnatural O6:O3 balance of today's factory-farmed meat animals. Where I able to source naturally-raised meat animals, I would not be feeding any fish at all.

- - - - - - -

As previously stated, I tend not to worry about specific nutrients (heck, science hasn't even identified all the nutrients present in animal tissues, never mind which nutrients cats need or in what combinations they are utilized), but for those reading this who are alarmed by this Vitamin D "issue", please note that almost all Vitamin D is stored in fatty tissues such as adipose, liver, kidneys, lungs, aorta and heart. If you're feeding liver and kidney as per the PMR guideline (5% of each) and throwing a heart meal in there once or twice a week, I submit you can be confident you're providing perfectly adequate amounts of this vitamin.

- - - - - - -

Cats are by nature curious, and we all know how wonderfully well they play the "can't make up my mind" role, so I don't see anything unusual with this kitty's behavior. The only thing I would change would be to increase the variety of foods being offered. The more accustomed to variety your cat becomes and the more variety he is offered, the less likely he will be to turn his nose up at any given meal. Prior to switching to raw, my cats were fed 21 different flavors of canned foods; they never ate the same meal in any given 7-day period. Today, they don't receive any raw meal more than twice a week, and they very rarely decline to eat. (When they do, I either just let them skip the meal, or use Whole Life's freeze-dried chicken to tempt the kitty.)

AC

 

[cat person]

<snipped> So where do wild cats get enough vitamin D? I don't know!

Unless they live somewhere with a good sardine supply

.

ETA (again): I guess kidney is a decent source, too. So if they eat the whole animal, the kidney and liver together add up to enough, maybe?<snipped>

Yes, kidneys, are one of the of the organs, with vitamin D. This is why, I fed my exotics and hybrids, as well as, my domestics, whole prey items. If, I remember correctly, exotic and hybrid cats, do not need, a real lot of vitamin D.

Now, as far as, the rabbit issue. I am going to give, anyone, that is interested my

, that, is based on nothing but my personal experience. So, please, keep that in mind

. My pure male African Serval, ate, about three whole rabbits a week. I breed my own prey items. So, I know, what type/breed of rabbit, that, he was consuming. I used Netherlands Dwarf rabbits, as well as, Cottontail rabbits, that, where breed with/to the Netherlands Dwarf rabbits. To make the cross, I am still feeding to this day

. The Netherlands/Cottontail Rabbit cross, are what I fed to my F1 Bengal and F3 Savannah, when, they where both alive. I NEVER had any problem, with the cats eating them

. I feed the same rabbits, to my DSH's and they seem fine as well

.

 

[ldg]

The taurine levels in a whole ground rabbit carcass - the only rabbit taurine data I have - are about twice the levels of whole chicken breast meat and about a third the levels of an entire non-ground chicken carcass (Taurine Concentrations in Animal Feed Ingredients; Cooking Influences Taurine Content); which is to say, rabbit is a very healthy addition to a cat's diet but - like any other meat - should never make up the sole protein source of said diet.

Thanks for the link!
.

Ground diets contain supplements because the act of grinding the food degrades the nutrient content, and (IMO) because they appeal to folks who want precise recipes with precise measurements and who are, for a variety of reasons, uncomfortable with the notion that a diet that balances ingredients without attempting to track individual nutrients - aka, a PMR 80/10/5/5 diet - will provide our carnivorous friends with everything they need to thrive.

As a PMR feeder, I do not offer my cats eggs or crickets because I believe they contain anything critical to a balanced diet, I offer them because they up the variety component of my cats' diet, and variety is critical to providing adequate nutrition. And the only reason I consider the Omega 3 content of sardines important is to counter the unnatural O6:O3 balance of today's factory-farmed meat animals. Where I able to source naturally-raised meat animals, I would not be feeding any fish at all.

.

...and this brings us back around to discussion we've had before (meaning both AC and I, and generally threads in the forum). While certainly variety is critical to the 80/10/5/5 guidelines, I think many simply do not factor in that the nutritional profile of factory farmed meat (and how it's handled before it gets to us) - which, IMO, only somewhat resembles a cat's natural prey - and the issue is not limited to the omega balance.

The information that vitamin D is stored in the adipose tissues, liver, kidneys, lungs, aorta and heart comes from Small Animal Clinical Nutrition, the section on "Metabolism" in the discussion of vitamin D. Yet in the same book, on the next page, in the "Sources" of vitamin D section, it states fish, beef, and liver.

But this conflicts with the USDA Database Nutrient info, as I've already illustrated in the table I posted above. Chicken liver as tested by the USDA, contains, on average, no vitamin D. Zero. This must be an issue of factory farming - the chickens are inside, not exposed to sunlight, and obviously not fed a diet that contains much vitamin D. Enough to mature them - but not enough for there to be any in the chicken liver our cats eat. :dk:

(And the amount of vitamin D fed chickens directly affects the amount of vitamin D in egg yolks: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/10552771/?i=3&from=/17267210/related)

Beef liver and kidney, on the other hand, do contain quite a bit (see the table I posted earlier).

I personally think that given the nature of factory farming, it's irresponsible to communicate that 80/10/5/5 prey model raw provides all a cat needs without qualifiers of any kind. In an ideal world, perhaps. But that's not where we're living. I believe the qualifiers are too many. IF you provide naturally raised, naturally finished beef/lamb/goat/pork (because a label "grass fed" does NOT mean grass finished - many are pastured, then sent to a feed lot, and the resulting nutritional and fat profile is NOT that of a completely naturally grass-fed animal); and IF you provide pastured chickens fed a natural diet of bugs, grubs, and grasses; and IF you provide pastured rabbits allowed to graze on a wide variety of live greens.... then perhaps just 80/10/5/5 is sufficient. But that is not the meat that most people can source.

I believe cats are not as fragile nutritionally as the pet food industry and the AAFCO would have us believe. But I also believe our factory farming methods do not result in diet components in a prey MODEL diet that are necessarily complete for our cats as is. This is an article about sourcing magnesium for people, but the section "Where Do Foods Containing Magnesium Come From? …From Soil Containing Magnesium" highlights the problem as re: vegetable farming. It cites a 2004 study by Davis et al. http://www.ancient-minerals.com/magnesium-sources/dietary/#decline

It is well known among experts that the quality of our crops is decreasing. In 2004, the Journal of the American College of Nutrition released a study which compared nutrient content of crops at that time with 1950 levels. Declines were found as high as 40%. (11)

Dr. Donald Davis, lead researcher for the study, offers one explanation for the dramatic declines:

During those 50 years, there have been intensive efforts to breed new varieties that have greater yield, or resistance to pests, or adaptability to different climates. But the dominant effort is for higher yields. Emerging evidence suggests that when you select for yield, crops grow bigger and faster, but they don’t necessarily have the ability to make or uptake nutrients at the same, faster rate.” (12)

.

It follows reason that the same is true for the production of meat, I would think.


I have been unable to determine how much vitamin D is in any organs other than beef liver or kidney - or how much is in heart of any kind... but meat of any animal is a poor source, despite the fat content. So how much fat (adipose tissue) would need to be fed? Most of it is trimmed before it even gets to the supermarket for further trimming. Who feeding kidney is providing those globs of fat that come with it? :dk: When eating a mouse, a cat eats that fat surrounding most organs, not just the organs... I'm going to stop trimming as much of that fat around the heart, and I'll start giving some of that kidney fat, but...

I supplement with egg yolks, sardines, and salmon oil because while I feed my cats a diet that comes in its natural format - raw - I don't believe that in following the 80/10/5/5 guideline with supermarket meat that I am providing them a natural diet nutritionally.

FYI, if anyone's interested, here is where adipose tissue is located in a mouse: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adipose_tissue#Mice

And here is information that indicates the difference between farmed and wild as it relates to vitamin D levels in salmon (interesting for those of us that do use salmon oil; also, IMO, another research piece indicative of the difference between our factory farmed meats and wild meats): http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/17267210/

 

[harleydiva]

Lots of information to absorb here.....thanks.

I am ordering some ground meat/bone mixes from the local coop.  If I add 1.5 ounces beef or chicken iiver per pound when I mix with supplements (Alnutrin meat/bone) and package for the freezer.....will that be okay??  The mixes include turkey, quail, and venison.  The rabbit already has organs, as well as their "kitten mix" which is as follows:

Ground Beef, Ground Chicken, Ground Beef Heart,  Ground Beef Liver, Ground Chicken bone, Ground Whole Egg

 

[mschauer]

I personally think that given the nature of factory farming, it's irresponsible to communicate that 80/10/5/5 prey model raw provides all a cat needs without qualifiers of any kind. In an ideal world, perhaps.

The very fact that some users of the 80-10-5-5 method insist that varying the proteins is "essential" is an acknowledgment that the method can result in deficiencies. The only difference between that approach and the "recipe" approach is that with the recipe approach we aren't satisfied at just assuming that randomly varying the diet ingredients is all that is needed in fill in any nutrient deficiencies and take a more rigorous approach to identifying and rectifying the deficiencies.

 

[harleydiva]

Is it okay to rotate proteins "over time"?  For example, my guys have eaten chicken and turkey since they started on raw, along with rabbit, duck a bit of pork and beef, as well as green tripe.  They adore rabbit....so they get it about every third meal.....maybe more often for the next couple of weeks until my next order comes.  They have never turned down rabbit.....but they do seem to be a bit "tired" of the chicken or turkey....I usually have to crumble some S&C freeze dried to get them to eat it lately.  The freeze dried is another example....when I got it a couple of months ago, they wouldn't touch it, either dry or reconstituted....now they think it is wonderful.  I am ordering a beef/heart/chicken/liver/egg "kitten mix" this time, as well as quail and venison.  Is it okay to skip the chicken and turkey for a month, and then re-introduce it next month?  Or does the variety in proteins need to be a constant thing?

 

[ldg]

Lots of information to absorb here.....thanks.

I am ordering some ground meat/bone mixes from the local coop.  If I add 1.5 ounces beef or chicken iiver per pound when I mix with supplements (Alnutrin meat/bone) and package for the freezer.....will that be okay??  The mixes include turkey, quail, and venison.  The rabbit already has organs, as well as their "kitten mix" which is as follows:

Ground Beef, Ground Chicken, Ground Beef Heart,  Ground Beef Liver, Ground Chicken bone, Ground Whole Egg

I'm sorry - how much meat, bone, and organ is already in there?

 

[ldg]

Is it okay to rotate proteins "over time"?  For example, my guys have eaten chicken and turkey since they started on raw, along with rabbit, duck a bit of pork and beef, as well as green tripe.  They adore rabbit....so they get it about every third meal.....maybe more often for the next couple of weeks until my next order comes.  They have never turned down rabbit.....but they do seem to be a bit "tired" of the chicken or turkey....I usually have to crumble some S&C freeze dried to get them to eat it lately.  The freeze dried is another example....when I got it a couple of months ago, they wouldn't touch it, either dry or reconstituted....now they think it is wonderful.  I am ordering a beef/heart/chicken/liver/egg "kitten mix" this time, as well as quail and venison.  Is it okay to skip the chicken and turkey for a month, and then re-introduce it next month?  Or does the variety in proteins need to be a constant thing?

I feed on a schedule, and rotate proteins so they don't have the same thing for at least several days. Despite that, sometimes one or two of the cats will seem to get sick of turkey breast or chicken breast or whatever.... so I'll just replace it with something for two weeks - and then they love it again after they haven't had it for a while.

You've got a lot of proteins in there, so I don't see why skipping chicken and turkey for a while would hurt. :dk: The main thing is that you're not feeding just rabbit, or just chicken, (or whatever) for long periods of time.

 

[ldg]

The very fact that some users of the 80-10-5-5 method insist that varying the proteins is "essential" is an 
acknowledgment that the method can result in deficiencies. The only difference between that 
approach and the "recipe" approach is that with the recipe approach we aren't satisfied at just 
assuming that randomly varying the diet ingredients is all that is needed in fill in any nutrient deficiencies and take 
a more rigorous approach to identifying and rectifying the deficiencies.

An interesting observation. The discussion of "to supplement" or "not to supplement" usually comes back to discussion of.... whether or not the nutritional components are viewed individually or not. And while I agree that we don't know what we don't know - and that includes components of nutrition, how everything works together, etc., in the end, it's not just that I don't trust the "prey model" and what is potentially missing from it because of all the parts of a whole animal we don't feed (one of the reasons I include whole ground animal in my cats' diet), it's that I don't trust the inputs, so I prefer to work with what we DO know, and what has been identified as being essential.

 

[harleydiva]

I'm sorry - how much meat, bone, and organ is already in there>

The majority of the mixes are from Blue Ridge Beef ,,,they are proprietary, but I was told the bone and organ amounts are at 10%.  For the meat/bone mixes...90/10.  I have been using MPC, which purport to be at 10-15% bone, and adding in a heart and/or gizzard, or a couple strips of chicken thigh to bring down the bone content.  I have seen no indication of any of the cats having issues with constipation, or any stomach upset from the bone.  They are all under 1 year (9, 10, and 11 months)

These appear to be less bone than I have been feeding, but several of the mixes do not contain organ.  I'm checking to see if adding 1.5 oz beef or chicken liver per pound would balance these mixes out.  I'm also wondering about taking chicken and turkey out of the rotation for a month, since they are currently not enthusiastic about it. They will usually eat it, but I have had to add some freeze dried as a topper lately to entice them.   I would replace this month with additional beef, quail, and a little venison in addition to the rabbit, pork, and duck.  I am very fortunate, in that my guys will try new stuff, and have been that way from the beginning.  

I went to the BRB website....there are quite a few positive testimonials from cat breeders....actually more than for dogs.  A friend has been feeding their stuff (dogs), and says the quality is excellent.  

 

[ldg]

Well, if the meat/bone/organ mixes are 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% liver, if you want to bring the bone percentage down, and your goal is to keep the meat/bone/organ balanced with a lower bone percentage, I'd suggest using kidney instead of liver, as liver is already the only organ in there - though the amounts you're adding are very small, so probably not worth buying kidney for it. :dk:

To bring the bone percent down to 9%, you need to increase each pound of mix by 1.6oz. To keep the organ at 10%, you need to add just 0.2oz (10% of 17.6oz), which is 1.76 ounces - and if it's already 10%, there's 1.6 ounces in each pound), which means the meat portion you need to increase by 1.4oz.

If you want the bone at 8%, you need to increase each pound of mix by 4 ounces. To keep the organ at 10%, you need to add 0.4oz, which means you'd need to add 3.6 ounces of meat.

 

[ldg]

....although a question would be - do they consider heart as an organ? Or when they say "organ is 10%," is that just liver? :dk:

 

[harleydiva]

Well, if the meat/bone/organ mixes are 80% meat, 10% bone, and 10% liver, if you want to bring the bone percentage down, and your goal is to keep the meat/bone/organ balanced with a lower bone percentage, I'd suggest using kidney instead of liver, as liver is already the only organ in there - though the amounts you're adding are very small, so probably not worth buying kidney for it.

To bring the bone percent down to 9%, you need to increase each pound of mix by 1.6oz. To keep the organ at 10%, you need to add just 0.2oz (10% of 17.6oz), which is 1.76 ounces - and if it's already 10%, there's 1.6 ounces in each pound), which means the meat portion you need to increase by 1.4oz.

If you want the bone at 8%, you need to increase each pound of mix by 4 ounces. To keep the organ at 10%, you need to add 0.4oz, which means you'd need to add 3.6 ounces of meat.

So....to get 10% organ into the meat/bone/no organ mixes.......I would add 1.6oz  organ to each pound?  

 

[harleydiva]

Since I'm asking dumb questions....here are a couple more..

What is the difference between "prey model" and "frankenprey"?  

I feed ground with Alnutrin twice a day.  Would like the third meal to be "unground" meat.....like hearts, gizzards, chicken or pork strips.  It sounds like I am messing up the percentages of stuff if I do that?   Or am I making this too hard?

 

[ldg]

So....to get 10% organ into the meat/bone/no organ mixes.......I would add 1.6oz  organ to each pound?  

It really depends on how nit-picky you want to be. :lol3: Adding 1.6 ounces of organ to each pound (which is 16 ounces) brings the total weight to 17.6 ounces - so the bone AND the organ would now be 9% (actually, 9.1%) of the total. If you want organ to be 10%, you'd have to add 1.8 ounces, bringing the total weight to 17.8 ounces. Organ would be 10%, and bone would be 9%. I don't think you need to be THAT precise.... but if it were me, I would add 0.9oz of liver, and 0.9 ounces of kidney.


....and the only dumb questions are those unasked.

Frankenprey is just another way of saying prey model raw - same thing.

No reason you can't balance that third meal. As Auntie Crazy says, variety is so important! In the diet I feed my kitties, they get whole animal ground with bone, a bone-in meal, and eggshell or freeze-dried bone as a calcium source with most of their frankenprey meals.

There's several ways to do it.

A) Don't reduce the bone content as a percent of the mixes, and feed them one meal of plain meat or meat/organ (see below for how much organ and how to balance it over the course of a week).

OR

B) Include a bone-in meal as part of their frankenprey meals once or twice a week

OR

C) Balance the frankenprey meals with an alternate calcium source: eggshell, bonemeal, or freeze dried bone. (I use eggshell and freeze dried bone - calcium hydroxyapatite from NOW foods).


It just takes 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder to balance 1 ounce of meat. I use the Alnutrin Eggshell powder from http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com (or you can just buy the Alnutrin with eggshell powder in it - but you already have the Alnutrin for the ground-with-organ and bone mixes), and these mini-measuring spoons: (The "Smidge" is 1/32 teaspoon).

I don't know how much food your cats are eating, but if they eat, let's say, 6 ounces of food a day, three meals a day, that means each meal is 2 ounces, and you'd be feeding 7 meals a week frankenprey, or 14 ounces a week per cat. 5% liver would be 0.7 ounces per week; same for whatever "other" organ you want to use (or if you don't want to be a stickler about the other organ, you'd need 1.4 ounces of liver). With 2 ounce meals, you could feed 2 meals a week that include some organ: 1.3 ounces of meat, and 0.7 ounces of organ.

When I use eggshell or freeze dried bone as the calcium source, I just sprinkle it on each meal.