Bottomless Pit

[peaches08]

Thanks LDG! They don't seem to have any deficiencies but I wanted to be sure that my crew is getting at least the bare minimum.

I forgot to add that I've shared crab legs with them a few times. Here on the coast I can get them fairly cheap compared to the main land, but they are still a rare treat.

 

[ldg]

Wow, now THAT is sharing. :lol3: I love crab too much to share any with the cats - it's a rare treat for me!

...Actually, they love crab and shrimp so much, we don't share, or any time we have it they cry for days - and weeks, sometimes. In fact, we don't even eat shrimp any more (even if we could afford it). When Tuxie was so very sick and anemic with his autoimmune disease, we fed him shrimp to get him eating. When he started eating cat food on his own, we stopped the shrimp - and he cried for MONTHS - months! We decided not to have shrimp after that. We thought, after a few years had gone by, that it would be OK. Nope. It started up another few months of crying for shrimp. !!!!!!

 

[mschauer]

It seems like the answer is no, you don't need to be concerned. The information Carolina sent up in the links in the post I just posted indicate that adult cats have a very low requirement for vitamin D, especially if the Ca ratio is adequate.

 

I think it is worth emphasizing that it is *adult* cats Laurie is referring to. And the study conclusions were dependent on knowing what the Ca ratio of the diets were:

Rickets has been produced in kittens fed purified diets lacking vitamin D. More severe rickets was produced by a diet containing 1% of calcium and 1% of phosphorus than by

one containing 2% of calcium and 0.65% of phosphorus. Cats which survive the acute rickets present during their rapid-growing period later develop a spontaneous healing

of their rickets, indicating a low vitamin D requirement in young adult cats.

BTW - That study which was conducted in 1957 and anyone who bemoans the lack of recent research in cat nutrition should read it . It's very sad.

 

[peaches08]

Well, they get the part that most don't eat...the meat closest to the body of the crab. :lol3: Otherwise one advantage in living on the coast is I can occasionally pick up snow crab legs for $5/lb. That's the cost of stew beef here.

 

[ldg]

I'd be feeding them crab too at that price!

 

[ldg]

It seems like the answer is no, you don't need to be concerned. The information Carolina sent up in the links in the post I just posted indicate that adult cats have a very low requirement for vitamin D, especially if the Ca ratio is adequate.

I think it is worth emphasizing that it is *adult* cats Laurie is referring to. And the study conclusions were dependent on knowing what the Ca ratio of the diets were:

Rickets has been produced in kittens fed purified diets lacking vitamin D. More severe rickets was produced by a diet containing 1% of calcium and 1% of phosphorus than by one containing 2% of calcium and 0.65% of phosphorus. Cats which survive the acute rickets present during their rapid-growing period later develop a spontaneous healing of their rickets, indicating a low vitamin D requirement in young adult cats.

BTW - That study which was conducted in 1957 and anyone who bemoans the lack of recent research in cat nutrition should read it . It's very sad.

Yes, thanks Medora, for clarifying.

And yes, it's very sad reading. I provided a warning.

 

[mschauer]

Oh, sorry for the duplicate warning. I overlooked yours!

 

[ldg]

It's an almost daily part of my routine to pick the clothes up off the floor and put them back in the bottom drawers of my dresser because the kitties have opened the drawers and pulled them out.

People look at me like I'm crazy when I offer to take their purse and put it in my closed bedroom. No joke, Mason will go through it. He is excellent with those polydactyl thumbs of his. It is literally 15 seconds or less and you will find the back half of my cat sticking out of your purse. He's not looking to eat anything...he's just nosey and looking for a new toy that you may be hiding in there. Friends laugh about my bad brown tabby, "are you sure you don't have a raccoon?" Good point! I used to fend off dumber raccoons when I had a farm!

Thank goodness Gideon can't get into the dresser in the bedroom.....it's heavy pine with weird handles that he can't get ahold of.  It's the only safe place n the house.  All the treats and the freeze dried food is stored in my underwear drawer to keep him out of it....lol.

OMG I missed these! I REALLY don't mean to laugh at your pain! Well - maybe I do. :lol3: Wow - I guess we have really boring cats!

...and I'm sorry, but that is just hysterical that you keep his treats in your underwear drawer, HarleyDiva. I think of liver and chicken scented undies! :anon:

 

[ldg]

Oh, sorry for the duplicate warning. I overlooked yours!

:lol3: yeah, well, as usual I wrote a book. I'm sure it was easy to overlook.

 

[mschauer]

Oh, sorry for the duplicate warning. I overlooked yours!

yeah, well, as usual I wrote a book.

I'm sure it was easy to overlook.

And, also as usual, a very good book it is!

 

[peaches08]

OMG I missed these! I REALLY don't mean to laugh at your pain! Well - maybe I do. :lol3: Wow - I guess we have really boring cats!

...and I'm sorry, but that is just hysterical that you keep his treats in your underwear drawer, HarleyDiva. I think of liver and chicken scented undies! :anon:

There's not a more strange feeling than going to the bathroom and Mason opens the door (round doorknob) and walks in on ya.

Looking up that story now. Phone is being obnoxious.

 

[ldg]

You go to the bathroom with the door closed?

 

[peaches08]

You go to the bathroom with the door closed?

I try to! :lol3:

 

[harleydiva]

OMG I missed these!

I REALLY don't mean to laugh at your pain! Well - maybe I do.

Wow - I guess we have really boring cats!

...and I'm sorry, but that is just hysterical that you keep his treats in your underwear drawer, HarleyDiva. I think of liver and chicken scented undies!

Hmmmm....maybe that's why people look at me funny and just back away slowly.

 

[harleydiva]

Question re: Vit D and eggs:  My guys will not eat raw eggs or egg yolks.  They are getting Vit D in the Alnutrin....do I need to worry about giving them more?  If I do, can I mix raw eggs into their ground mixes when I prepare them?

 

[ldg]

The Alnutrin is meant to balance the meat/bone/organ mixes, and does, as you say, include vitamin D! (And it's in an egg yolk base). :nod: Should be more than sufficient, especially if you're feeding the whole ground mixes - which you are, right? So they're getting ALL the organs, not just liver or kidney. That's part of the reason I include the HT whole ground animal in my cats' diet.

AND if you provide any oily fish, like sardines - or supplement with salmon oil or something - that also provides vitamin D (in addition to the omega 3s).

So any or all of those and you're good!

 

[ldg]

FYI, I do mix egg yolks into the HT ground mixes. I do it primarily for the choline in the yolks, because I give my cats wild salmon oil. But again - the alnutrin is an egg yolk base, and the HT mixes are whole animal. :nod:

If my cats weren't older (my youngest is now 6 or 7 years old) and if most of them hadn't been eating basically kibble for 8 years, I may not be as anal about supplementing some of the things I do. But I have older - and in several cases - already health compromised kitties. I have a cancer survivor that was given 4 weeks to live when it was discovered. He is now 14 months into remission. (KNOCK WOOD). I have an FIV+ kitty. I have a kitty with an autoimmune disease that causes anemia, and I have a kitty with high blood pressure, arthritis, asthma, and who lost her hearing and an eye to herpes. And I'm pretty anal about stuff to begin with. :lol3:

 

[harleydiva]

Thanks LDG.....my guys are only 9,10, and 11 months old.  They were switched to premium grain free canned foods when I brought them home.  For the first few months, they also got a cup of dry grain free split between them each day, but I got rid of the dry after I started researching nutrition.  They were switched to raw back in December.  They were young enough that the transition took only 3 days.  "The Pit" has been the only one with picky episodes.....but right now he is doing pretty well if I crumble freeze dried on top of the proteins he isn't crazy about.  They didn't like freze dried initially, but love it now.  (I just spent $40 on 2 large bags, so watch them decide they don't like it now)  I do add wild salmon oil most days, with a weekly water packed, no salt sardine.

I have been feeding whole animal grinds from MPC, but am trying some products from a local coop for next month.  I know the rabbit is whole animal, but not sure about the other stuff, which is from Blue Ridge Beef.  I will have to add some organs to the quail, venison and turkey mixes, as they don't include them.....will probably be liver this month, as I haven't found a souce of other organs in resasonable amounts.  I just got in some S&C freeze dried cat mixes yesterday.....will rotate lunches between that and unsupplementd heaet & gizzards or meat strips as we talked about before.

 

[ldg]

Thanks LDG.....my guys are only 9,10, and 11 months old.  They were switched to premium grain free canned foods when I brought them home.  For the first few months, they also got a cup of dry grain free split between them each day, but I got rid of the dry after I started researching nutrition.  They were switched to raw back in December.  They were young enough that the transition took only 3 days.  "The Pit" has been the only one with picky episodes.....but right now he is doing pretty well if I crumble freeze dried on top of the proteins he isn't crazy about.  

That is just so awesome! I have trouble feeling guilty for having just trusted the vet, especially since I believe one of my cats may not have had the problems he did if they'd been fed raw most of their lives. BUT.... as Auntie Crazy says, guilt does no good, and we don't know what we don't know. And as I say to people - we're supposed to be able to trust our vets. Who knew that most know so little about nutrition? We learn and move on, right?

(I just spent $40 on 2 large bags, so watch them decide they don't like it now)

And THIS is when I "knock wood."

th_15_10_2.gif

• ldg
• Mar 30, 2013

...And when I don't have some wood handy, I knock my head.

I do add wild salmon oil most days, with a weekly water packed, no salt sardine.

I have been feeding whole animal grinds from MPC, but am trying some products from a local coop for next month.  I know the rabbit is whole animal, but not sure about the other stuff, which is from Blue Ridge Beef.  I will have to add some organs to the quail, venison and turkey mixes, as they don't include them.....will probably be liver this month, as I haven't found a souce of other organs in resasonable amounts.  I just got in some S&C freeze dried cat mixes yesterday.....will rotate lunches between that and unsupplementd heaet & gizzards or meat strips as we talked about before.

Just FYI, MPC sells all kinds of interesting things - tripe, beef kidney, ground beef pancreas (my cats LOVE this - it's fatty, which is part of why I think they like it so much) - they sell chunks of spleen... if you want to rotate sources of liver, they have pork liver, lamb liver... wow - they even have lamb spleen and hearts! Wow - when we get paid on our next consulting contract, I may order a bunch of organs from them. :lol3:

 

[harleydiva]

I skipped MPC this month to try some stuff from the Raw Paws coop....I expect that I will be getting stuff from both sources after this.  Both offer items that the other does not, or there is a significant price difference on some items.  I'm feeling lucky to have both these options with fairly local pickup.  Delivery fee is a whole lot less than shipping.  Raw Paws has ground whole rabbit in 5# bags for $2.95 a pound.....since my guys love rabbit, I'm sure I will keep getting this if I like the quality.  I also like the availability of quail and venison from Raw Paws.  My frenchie boy absolutely adored quail....hopefully the cats will like it too.  I'll go back and check out the organ options at MPC....I didn't really pay much attention since I was getting whole ground product from them and didn't have to worry about the organs.