Frankly, I'm STUNNED. We've had some very successful introductions that took as much as a year to complete, with the cats ending up very content together. Most take WEEKS to accomplish. And I'm sure hearing that stressed you out to no end, making things WORSE for all of you!
Yes, a Mod can do that for you.
Thank you for this! You're awesome.
but I try my best.
Thank you for this thoughtful and thorough reply!!Sure, anytime. You'll really find that when you're on the Cat Site, you're never alone. Someone will always be around to try and help. Sometimes we can't come up with great answers, but because each of us has our own unique experiences, then you're more than likely to find something useful.
I also have to confess that I have never actually worked with any Bengals. (My previous neighbour had a bengal, and he was super smart, acted like a dog, in that he would follow the neighbour in his backyard, and to the front of the house, and would often play fetch with him. Quite amazing to see.
I've only read things about them, in that they are highly intelligent, extremely loyal, extremely playful, and high energy...so I figure they are like regular cats, but with added energy, and might need more playtime and extra mental stimulation.
Yes, definitely...that is one of the goals,...to allow each cat to slowly adjust to how the other cat reacts.
While playing, cats are totally learning about each other, what the other cat likes and does not like, what each prefers as in chase or wrestle, how strong, when to play, and definitely how to respect the other cat's boundaries.
By doing the cat-intros, in a slow process of steps, you’re allowing time for each cat to learn from each other, and also correcting for anything worrisome, through Play (and distraction), Food (distractions and security), Height (enrichment, distraction, safe spaces), Love (affection, enrichment, bonding).
The method that Calicosrspecial uses, and also came up with, called ‘Play, Food, Height, Love’ (mnemonic Play For Her Love) works especially well at the ‘play stage’…since it incorporates all the important useful methods…and breaks them down into understandable ‘behaviour modification tools’ or ‘skills that you use’ to get our cats to co-exist peacefully.
In the Play stage, you're allowing them to interact, so they can learn from each other, ...but you are also observing what happens 'before, during, and afterwards'...so that you only allow 'good interactions' to take place. In this way, you are building on having way more 'positive interactions' and less of the negative ones. (I think calicosrspecial mentions this, as a way of building positives, and continuing on building upon that 'positive foundation'. Distracting when you think it's going towards negative, and trying to end each face-to-face encounter on a positive...then giving treats/praise as a reward.)
When you're introducing cats at a slow pace, ...then you are allowing them to make gradual adjustments...to each other,...and they are also, at the same time...lessening their fear responses.
For instance, you start with the basics of the cat-intros...in using the 5 Senses...starting with Sound, then Scent and Taste.
Scent is huge, ..since cats truly get to know each other through scent. They use Scent to know who the other one is, how they are feeling, fearful or relaxed, health, friendly, adrenaline, pheromones,...all this information our cats get through Scent.
At this time, you're also using Taste(food) to make only positive associations with the other cat.
Cats like Food, so they come to associate all the good feelings and Security around food, with the Scent of the other cat.
After they actually know each other through Scent, then you introduce Sight. (most people do rush this part, because they feel that their cats are ready to meet, and see each other, but sometimes the cats get easily 'startled' by what they see. It's just so new and overwhelming for them, to suddenly see a cat there...so again you take it slow, with gradual sight, and open up the visuals in small steps.
Everything is done in a slow, orderly, and gradual basis,..so that both cats can have time to take in the new information, and adjust.
Touch, of course, is the last sense in cat-intros, where you allow face-to-face meetings, but keep them short, initially…so that the meetings again end on a positive note.
I had to think about this for a bit, since yes, at first it does seem like you are rewarding…but yet you ‘diffused’ and ‘distracted’ …so really you created a different path for them to go towards, and left both cats with good feelings.
Your observations are spot on, in noticing that shouting "no" only makes the situation more tense.
So true about using your ‘tone of voice’ and not shouting to scare the cats.
What I usually do is say ‘hey, hey, hey’ or clap my hands…just to momentarily distract the cats.
(I do like calicos suggesting of using the word "okay"...since it's calming,...but I tend to like using words that I don't normally use at other times, ...just to grab their attention. Though, if I give it more thought, I probably use "hey" at other times, as well.)
If you can get your T to even momentarily distract, and disengage from what he is doing, then you’ll use this technique at other times, where you want to change his behaviour onto something else.
(Last month I watched a youtube video from 'Helpful Vancouver Vet'...called 'Cat names that get your cat's attention', where he uses ‘high pitched’ sounds to get his cat’s attention. It was funny, in the sense that he alters the names of his cats…to end in the ‘eeee’ sound, but also useful, because his cat ‘Lancelot’, who he calls ‘Lancy’ actually turns and listens to him, each time he says his name.)
Perhaps you can try using such a ‘nickname’ for your cat T, and end his name that way…just to see what he does. If he listens or not.
Sure, gently pushing him away is fine. If you do it repetitively enough, T should get the message.
If you can add a 3rd litter box, to another area, then that may be useful, too.
Doesn’t have to be a real litter box, even something like a clear plastic, high sided tote box would work.
That way H would never be prevented from having access to one.
(1000 square feet is kind of big for a flat. Here in Canada, my one friend is in a 400 square ft flat, with one cat, and another one is in an 800 square ft flat, but no cats.)
I’d give each Play session a good 10 minutes of real active play.
If you can get in 1 hour to 1.5 hours per day, that would be really, really good.
Just divide the hour into 10 minute sessions,…say two ten minute sessions in the morning, two in late afternoon, and two in evening. Or really however you’d like to break it down, but try to be consistent and plan for some sort of routine.
Playing with T will be the key, here.
Since you'll have to expend his energy, and get him motivated to Play with you, ...try doing a rotation of toys.
I know that you said that T does not seem interested in any of the ones he used to play with,... but sometimes cats do get bored with their original toys...but then get to playing with them again. Sometimes they don't like the new toys, until the toy starts to smell different, or more like the home.
You don't have to spend that much money on toys, but having a good wand toy, or kickaroo, or something the cats can fetch is very useful. Ping pong balls, scrunched up paper...are all toys that appeal to most cats.
Be creative, and make your own toys,...or an obstacle course...simply by using empty boxes, and arranging them in your home so that the cats can get in and out of, explore, and run around in. Tunnels are very popular.
So what about making some homemade cat puzzles. (pretty much all these ideas are from other members)
Homemade Puzzles - Food Puzzles for Cats
(the above link was provided by Furballsmom and also Hellenww.)
(I just did a "search" for 'cat food puzzles'....in the upper right hand corner...and you get many threads that mention them.)
Or how about: How To Choose The Best Toy For Your Cat – Cat Articles
Amazon.co.uk | Cat Toys
Amazon.co.uk | Interactive Toys for Cats
So I take it that it's a one bedroom flat, with doors on the bedroom and bathroom?
Do you own the flat, or do you rent...in other words...are you allowed to put holes in the walls, and put up some cat shelving?
If not, could you create 'zones' in your place by using dividers?
Perhaps the 'netting' is really not a great idea, since your T would likely just climb it, and hang on it, and climb some more.
Maybe an actual room divider, like the one mentioned by FeebysOwner, where wire mesh shelving is used, and attached with zip ties. Post #2 of this thread: Featured - Door blockade for cats getting to know each other
How to Build a Free-Standing Cat, Dog, or Pet Gate Cheaply, Without Tools
Uhhh...that so called animal behaviorist sounded like the worst. It's probably best just to forget her, and her terrible advice. (It usually takes me about a week to forget the garbage that people say, but I am getting better, in lowering it down to 3 days now.) I have to take my own advice and breathe and relax, too.
I did watch the videos, and I do see what you are referring to.
T wants to play with H, but she is just much smaller, and T does not understand that she does not want him to pounce, surprise, or play rough. As H grows larger, she will also begin to become more assertive, and hopefully teach T some further manners.
Female cats are usually not shy with teaching other cats about what they want.
T actually does limit his pouncing and playing,..so that is really good to see.
And good to see that H does not run far away or immediately want to retaliate.
The thing I would suggest, but I'm just not sure how you can implement it...is that H really needs to have a 'safe room' or 'safe zone' ...safe place, ...where she can run to, and not be bothered by T...at times.
Your bathroom is huge...(I can probably live in there, mine is like 5ft by 7ft, or 6ft by 9ft, yours looks a lot larger), but I'm not sure if it is the proper place for both T and H to play in, right now together, during the cat-intros.
My reasoning is that H needs to feel protected and safe, security,..to build her confidence...so she also needs a space where she can relax and not be bothered by T.
That is why I was hoping that may be you could divide your place into some 'zones' where the cats will still feel a part of the action, but also separate. It's just something to think about, which may help in the cat-intros.
I did read that bengal cats love water,...so I'm not sure if your T does or not?
If you have a bathtub, then giving T access to it, ...might help him have another venue of play, ....if you are okay with him splashing about in the tub, for a while.
(Ooops....looks like I am a few posts behind...so I have some catching up to do, and video watching, too.
Thank you for this. I am naturally an anxious person so it's hard for me... I just want them to be happy! But I'm trying my very best to be calmer with themI have never had a bengal but this doesn’t sound like a bengal problem to me. Please try to relax. Get calm, have a beer or glass of wine first, mediate, whatever you need to do ....then let them be together.
My first thought was dominance with biting/pinning down. I would caution you to not rescue her unless necessary because you don’t want her to learn she can scream and you will fight her battles. Cats are smart & I think bengals are smarter (& cats are masters at training their humans with whatever manipulation is necessary to get their way!)
Can play and are harness outside time (at least for the boy) before they play together with supervision?
Can you give her a box or cave which has such a small entrance & exit that he can not fit into but (but she can.) I also think looking at my cat from hell shows on how they catify can help her avoid them. I know bengals love to climb so all the cat shelves you can give them (& you can alway add more later to.)
Part of it may be her personality or gender. She may want to desperately play with him ...,,, just not so rough & where she wins!
A very secure escape proof screen or a lattice secured in front of your window can let you safely leave the window open with a window perch or cat tree. Throw in a few (or many) bird feeders plus a water fountain (or bird bath) all by/under a tree or bushes and you have cat heaven.
One thing my hyper punk taught me was outside time ‘hunting’ was like Ritalin for cats. Giving my insanely hyper terror 1-3 hours of outside time kept him from jumping on his brother and biting him right between the shoulder blades! (If he got bored he used his brother as prey!) My Mom has 20-40 finches that call her yard home & my twerp loves visiting Nanna’s So he can watch all the birds (instead of the 10 my 2 feeders attract .) Their torture sis Canfield harness free because she never even tries to escape.
I have seen bengals calm down after they have to learn a no agility course (you keep changing it every week so you challenge them. Dante taught me that if you don’t tire their minds, no amount of play will tire them out! An hour a day of outside time kept him from going insane!!!
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Another great reply, thank you so much!Tree 1 video: If you slow down the video, you see T try to sniff H's tail. H does not like this. Hisses, but T is also in the process of either hissing, and then swatting at H. (0.01 mark)
Tree 2 video: T wants to play, but H is frightened of him. She notices that he is focused on her at the 0.05 mark.
She waits for his next move. He pounces...but she is prepared for it.
And, at the 0.13 mark she paws at his paw.
Amazing, ...she is one tough cat.
She is trying to teach him to play gentler.
Yes, T is definitely being too rough with his play.
He is treating H like a toy.
Preferably a stuffed animal one, which you can use as a 'substitute' for him to be able to pounce on, kick, and chew.
- Would you be able to buy him a 'stuffed toy'...which is the same size as H?
- Tie a string around it, and make the toy move, like an animal would.
- Watch what happens, and try to get T to pounce on it, and engage with the stuffed toy.
Just make sure the stuffed toy is 'cat friendly', meaning no plastic parts that he can swallow, no loose labels or strings, and no stuffing that is dangerous for cats.
(I'd probably buy a few, ...and see which ones he likes.)
T should be stopping his rough behaviour, but since he is treating H like a toy, ...for some reason he is disregarding her squeals and growls, ...or misinterpreting them as ordinary play sounds.
- When T gets into this "laser focused type of play" and he focuses his attention onto H, ...try using a towel, to interrupt his 'line-of-sight'...and then see how he reacts.
I don't think he understands his own strength, here, or that he is much larger and stronger than H.
But T does Disengage, and he does Listen, and he also does not pursue...so he is not trying to hurt her.
It almost seems like he just wants her to fight back, ...so that he could have a fun wrestle...not thinking that she does not want to.
What is fantastic, is that H is super tough, and does not fear him, in the sense that she does not run out of the room.
She is gaining confidence, but does need to be helped...when he plays too rough.
The reason you have to intervene, ...is to give T the message that rough play like this...is not allowed in the home.
You can tell that he understands, you, by the way he disengages, and looks around.
- Playing with him, individually, to draw off the energy he has, will help to calm him down in his playtime with H.
Again, here, T is wanting to engage H in play.
He's like using the tactics of 'observing then wanting to ambush'.
I don't think that T knows that he is big, in comparison to H.
And yeah, that's kind of intimidating, to see a face like that peering around a corner.
What could have happened is that during the 'recovery period' for H,...she still may have felt a bit sore, and then if T attempted to play with her...and she felt some soreness, this could have turned her off playing with him, altogether.
(The spay operation cuts into the outer skin layer, then the subcutaneous fat layer, and then the abdominal muscle,...so healing from that would take some time.)
(I know with myself, just having a simple laparoscopic procedure, where only 3 small holes are made, that the pain lasted for one month afterwards. It only hurt when getting up from sitting or getting up from bed. I thought it would be like a 'paper cut'. Nope. Oh, well. Live and learn. Though I do know our cats are much tougher, and hide pain so well, so who knows the level of pain that cats can tolerate.)
What Calicosrpsecial said is true, though. We'd only just be guessing as to why H stopped playing, and enjoying the running.
Better to focus on what's happening 'today'...and improve on where we can.
I also don't thing that T is being a bully.
And that the chasing will return to the back and forth, that you saw earlier...but it might be different, in that you won't know who started it, but as long as it ends with both cats mutually going their separate ways, then it will be okay.
What I'm not sure about...is whether T... has fully accepted H into his territory.
You mentioned that T does not like it when H sits on 'his cat tree'. That he gets upset.
And that he also pushes H away from toys, or the scratch pad.
So maybe T is still not 100% accepting of H, being in his space, yet.
It's hard to tell which part has to do with... fully accepting the 'new cat' and 'sharing his humans' with her, his space, his stuff, ...and which part is T just wanting to play with H.
If T is still a bit jealous of H, and not getting equal time with his humans, then he could be feeling a bit unsettled, too.
We will know more, once you set up a routine for Playing with T, and see how he responds.
Hey, just thought I’d give you a update on how things have been going.
Hi! Sorry for the radio silence. I wanted to give it a few weeks to see how they get on. Thank you so much for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Honestly the reassurance means a lot to me!
I hope you're keeping well and safe.
No need to be sorry. Totally understand.Hi! Sorry for the radio silence. I wanted to give it a few weeks to see how they get on. Thank you so much for your detailed and thoughtful reply. Honestly the reassurance means a lot to me!
So we have been getting a bit better. In lockdown obviously I have a lot of time to be around / play with the cats. T is getting better at playing with toys and I now seem to be able to distract him if he looks like he's going to pounce on her. We have also got into more of a routine now so that they know it's playtime. If I'm in the room with both H and T, T tends to know to leave H alone. However, he will still try and pounce on her if I'm in a different room and I still have to respond to her howling whenever he grabs her. Luckily he seems to react to my voice in telling him to get off her. Also if she escapes by jumping on something high he will leave her alone. She also tends to bounce back almost immediately, so I assume it hasn't bothered her too much?
T still chases H I'd say 90% of the time. The other 10% H will try and chase him or go up to him and then run away. I'm wondering if H likes to be chased? She seems to run away from him in a playful way - tail up, sort of bunny hopping her way down the hall. I sometimes worry that T is chasing her too much and that it's not reciprocal - how can I tell that she enjoys being chased? Should it be more 50 / 50?
Playtime is definitely difficult in that T tends to dominate the scene and go for the toy before H can and she tends to stand back or be bit wary of him. I know play separately is important- but it's virtually impossible to play with the separately. If I'm with one cat, the other one will want to be there.
H loves to escape T by hiding under the sofa. I've been worried about this as I don't want her to be scared under there, but whenever I go to fetch her from behind it she tries to paw me in a playful way as though it's a game? Is it better to leave her under there and let her come out in her own time? I don't like the thought she might feel like she can't come out because of T but also don't know if it's part of her game?
Also another question. We are still keeping them separate at night and when we go out (which obviously isn't much at the moment), but I wanted to ask when do you know when it's okay to leave them together? I really don't want to keep them separate when things go back to normal after her having all this freedom, but I also don't want her to get injured or scared.
Thank you again for your excellent help
"T is getting better at playing with toys and I now seem to be able to distract him if he looks like he's going to pounce on her. We have also got into more of a routine now so that they know it's playtime. If I'm in the room with both H and T, T tends to know to leave H alone." - THIS is FANTASTIC!!! Tells me T is all about play with her. No intent of hurting her.
No need to be sorry. Totally understand.
"However, he will still try and pounce on her if I'm in a different room and I still have to respond to her howling whenever he grabs her. Luckily he seems to react to my voice in telling him to get off her. Also if she escapes by jumping on something high he will leave her alone. " - Yes, this is how cats will be. Brats. BUT he responds to your voice AND when she goes high he leaves her be. That is really positive. Just keep building her confidence as the more confident she is the less rough play he will do (of course they still will play).
"She also tends to bounce back almost immediately" - This is most important. We can think what they are thinking but she is telling us she doesn't really feel threatened. Confirmation of our observation and interpretation. GREAT!!!
"T still chases H I'd say 90% of the time. The other 10% H will try and chase him or go up to him and then run away. I'm wondering if H likes to be chased? She seems to run away from him in a playful way - tail up, sort of bunny hopping her way down the hall." - T chasing makes sense. That is how cats play. But again, what is really telling is that H chases or wants to be chased. Sounds like total play to me. Sounds like they have a good understanding of "the game" and the fact H is participating (instigating?) tells me again that she doesn't view him negatively or as a threat. A cat in a scary situation does not act like that.
"I sometimes worry that T is chasing her too much and that it's not reciprocal - how can I tell that she enjoys being chased? Should it be more 50 / 50?" - Oh he probably is chasing too much but he loves it and her. It is a problem when she starts acting differently. You can tell she enjoys it by her encouraging him to play. My cats do this ALL THE TIME. Cats love that kind of play. But it has to be followed up with positive behavior. We don;t want to see changes in behavior (negative). It doesn't have to be 50/50. As long as it is not 100% and negative behavior after it is fine.
"Playtime is definitely difficult in that T tends to dominate the scene and go for the toy before H can and she tends to stand back or be bit wary of him. I know play separately is important- but it's virtually impossible to play with the separately. If I'm with one cat, the other one will want to be there." - Yes, it is difficult often. If it is positive and the cats are doing well and having fun that is fine. And anytime H is not being in a negative situation it is a positive. It sounds good to me.
"H loves to escape T by hiding under the sofa. I've been worried about this as I don't want her to be scared under there, but whenever I go to fetch her from behind it she tries to paw me in a playful way as though it's a game? Is it better to leave her under there and let her come out in her own time? I don't like the thought she might feel like she can't come out because of T but also don't know if it's part of her game?" - If she rebounds quickly then I wouldn't worry about it. I prefer her to go high but it isn't necessary. It could be play (pawing) or a "leave me alone". I would just call her or positively coerce her to come out. Make it positive and on her terms so she thinks she decided to come out. And try to make it positive when she does come out.
"Also another question. We are still keeping them separate at night and when we go out (which obviously isn't much at the moment), but I wanted to ask when do you know when it's okay to leave them together? I really don't want to keep them separate when things go back to normal after her having all this freedom, but I also don't want her to get injured or scared." - This is the tricky part. My guess is when you all are gone they will just sleep. So you could try to keep them separate and see how they behave when you come home. My sense is T doesn't want to hurt H but he is bigger and I would probably like to see H a bit more confident and bigger. Of course, separating them can cause issues. I need to think about this more. We do need to finish off the intro and I honestly think you are 99.9% of the way there. But we need to feel comfortable leaving them together. Hmmmmmmm. Bengals are so energetic so it makes it trickier. Let's think more about this and how comfortable you feel.
Thank you. Let's figure out the last piece. I will say you have done a great job as have the cats.
We are keeping safe (Stay at Home). You stay safe as well.
Let me know how you are feeling about them being together. Most cats will just sleep when their owners are away but Bengals are more energetic. I don't think T would hurt H on purpose but could there be an accident?
Thank you for your reply!
When he does start always feel free to distract with a toy, or words (calm and confident) or a treat. Just to give an alternative and to keep it positive and let T know that it isn't always a chase (though it does seem she likes that).Haha, they are certainly brats! T especially. When I'm in the room I can see him about to test his luck, luckily he is learning.
With building her confidence is that through play, height and love as you suggested? She definitely gets tonnes of love and places to escape. We play with her a lot but like I mentioned before it's hard to do this without T overtaking the play time - any suggestions?
Yes H will instigate a lot of the time. For example if she hears him using his litter she'll run over and wait outside the box only to run away again. T's favourite thing at the moment is to go into the wardrobe and meow. She loves this and will go over and start pawing the wardrobe for him. I still think T takes it too far sometimes. It's like H wants to be chased but doesn't want to be caught
Thank you for your thoughts re keeping them separate. I think we will continue as we are at the moment for a month or so -which is only keeping them separate at night (never in the day anymore as we're always inside!) - and give it a try later on when she's bigger. She's still tiny in comparison to him! I'm also concerned they'll keep me up all night with all the chasing going on! But we will see eventually... I'll keep you updated and thanks again!
