I finally got around to messing with Pet Diet Designer and discovered that according to the program, following Alnutrin directions leaves the recipe low in all micronutrients. Do I panic? Do I not panic? Is one of them wrong?
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Alnutrin And Pet Diet Designer
- Thread starter sabrinah
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- #2
I did just now notice that Alnutrin is only formulated to meet AAFCO standards while PDD uses NRC standards. The question still stands though. To panic or not to panic?
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What is Pet Diet Designer? Did you compare Alnutrin with one of the recipes at catnutrition.org?
No, do not panic. It is a blatantly untrue statement to say that using Alnutrin as per manufacturer instructions will result in a nutrient deficient diet.
Can you provide more information about where you have seen the claim? You say "according to the program". What does that mean? Does the program allow you to use Alnutrin as a recipe ingredient?
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AAFCO recommendations are based on NRC recommendations. I say based because the AAFCO starts with the NRC recommendations and makes adjustments for various reasons. One of those reasons is that the NRC research is aggregated and published very infrequently. There was a 20 year gap between the last two publications, the last being in 2006. The AAFCO makes use of more current research when available.
For example, the NRC recommends a much higher iodine content than the AAFCO. Both the AAFCO and the FEDIAF ( European equivalent of the AAFCO which also utilizes the NRC publication ) have determined that the NRC recommendation is excessive and use a lower amount.
But even when the 2006 NRC recommendations are used, using Alnutrin will not result in a food deficient in all micro-nutrients.
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- #6
The program lets you add in whatever you want as long as you have the nutrient profile and the weight. Since it uses the USDA database, things like Alnutrin have to be added in. I added in Alnutrin using the information on the back of the package and made a recipe following Alnutrin direction. The program shows the amount of microminerals, macronutrients, vitamins, proteins, etc. and whether or not it meets NRC requirements. You can even choose between the recommended allowance (RA) and the minimum requirement (MR). It somehow doesn't even meet the recommended allowance of protein, even though it's literally all meat, but it does meet the minimum requirement for protein.
I have the nutrient profile for Alnutrin as provided by the manufacturer (knowwhatyoufeed). I have used it in my own recipe analyzer and I assure it does meet NRC recommendations for the nutrients you show.
What did you enter for the recipe other than Alnutrin and how much Alnutrin did you add?
Also, can you post a picture of the back of the Alnutrin package? I want to see how they specify the nutrient profile.
As you point out, that the program claims the food doesn't even meet protein recommendations pretty clearly shows something is wrong. Alnutrin, and all supplement mixes, provide very little protein. The vast majority of it comes from the meat you add.
I actually have Pet Diet Designer. I found it very difficult to use. I got frustrated with it pretty quickly. My own program is far easier to use so I didn't have any motivation to keep trying to figure out how to use PDD. I may make an other crack it though.
What did you enter for the recipe other than Alnutrin and how much Alnutrin did you add?
Also, can you post a picture of the back of the Alnutrin package? I want to see how they specify the nutrient profile.
As you point out, that the program claims the food doesn't even meet protein recommendations pretty clearly shows something is wrong. Alnutrin, and all supplement mixes, provide very little protein. The vast majority of it comes from the meat you add.
I actually have Pet Diet Designer. I found it very difficult to use. I got frustrated with it pretty quickly. My own program is far easier to use so I didn't have any motivation to keep trying to figure out how to use PDD. I may make an other crack it though.
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- #8
I added what Alnutrin calls for. Chicken, liver, water, Alnutrin. The program provides protein for the entire recipe, not the supplement itself. All I did was put the Alnutrin directions for the small 1 pound batch on their website (1 lb chicken, 6.7 g Alnutrin, 0.8oz liver, 0.5 cup water) into a spreadsheet and scale it down. I tested it out at both 3 oz (what I feed since raw is only half the diet) and 6 oz but both were lacking in nutrients. I also double checked the data for Alnutrin to make sure all the values were right.
I'm looking at PDD and I really can't agree that it is easy to use. The user interface is probably the worst I've ever seen.
I haven't yet found how to add Alnutrin. I do have a question for you though. The Alnutrin image you posted shows nutrient values per 1g of Alnutrin. Typically, nutrient information is entered as amounts per 100g. Does PDD specify that nutrients be entered as an amount per 100g? If so, did you multiple the amounts on the label by 100 before entering them into PDD?
I haven't yet found how to add Alnutrin. I do have a question for you though. The Alnutrin image you posted shows nutrient values per 1g of Alnutrin. Typically, nutrient information is entered as amounts per 100g. Does PDD specify that nutrients be entered as an amount per 100g? If so, did you multiple the amounts on the label by 100 before entering them into PDD?
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- #10
You add things using the food wizard. When you add you choose the amount the nutrient profile is based on (so 1g for Alnutrin) then when you save it it's automatically converted to 100g.
The website says the update will have a whole new interface. There's actually going to be 4 versions. When I first started using it I spent hours just trying to put the 4 ingredients for the Alnutrin recipe in there, but since I got the hang of it it only takes a couple minutes.
The website says the update will have a whole new interface. There's actually going to be 4 versions. When I first started using it I spent hours just trying to put the 4 ingredients for the Alnutrin recipe in there, but since I got the hang of it it only takes a couple minutes.
I see the Food Wizard but it only has options to add nutrient amounts as per 100 grams of the food or as per a selected common measure.
If you select per 100 grams you need to multiple the amounts on the Alnutrin label by 100.
If you select per 100 grams you need to multiple the amounts on the Alnutrin label by 100.
I added Alnutrin and clicked Save but it doesn't come up when I search for it under Foods. Did I not save it correctly?
How do I add an ingredient to a recipe??? Geez I hate this thing...
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- #14
The PDD Forum and instructional videos are your best friend when trying to figure it out. When you click on the Food Wizard the little white bar at the top has options for "per 100 grams" and "common measure." The common measure lets you do whatever you like.
When you use the food wizard make sure you hit the Enter key on your keyboard after entering every value.
To add an ingredient click on "Food Search" which is found both on the top of the page and as a tiny tab on the left. Search for what you want and click on the little green plus. Plain vitamins aren't in the database (yet) so you have to add those using the Food Wizard. Once you've added all your ingredients they'll be per 100 grams. If you click on the little black triangle next to the units it'll show you the options for that item besides grams. Make sure you hit Enter after you change your values, as that's how you save everything.
When you use the food wizard make sure you hit the Enter key on your keyboard after entering every value.
To add an ingredient click on "Food Search" which is found both on the top of the page and as a tiny tab on the left. Search for what you want and click on the little green plus. Plain vitamins aren't in the database (yet) so you have to add those using the Food Wizard. Once you've added all your ingredients they'll be per 100 grams. If you click on the little black triangle next to the units it'll show you the options for that item besides grams. Make sure you hit Enter after you change your values, as that's how you save everything.
I don't see Food Search on the recipe page nor do I see the tiny tab on the left.
Well, I don't have time to spend hours figuring out how to use PDD. But I have no doubt that the problem you are seeing has something to do with PDD. There is nothing wrong with Alnutrin.
Well, I don't have time to spend hours figuring out how to use PDD. But I have no doubt that the problem you are seeing has something to do with PDD. There is nothing wrong with Alnutrin.
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- #16
If Alnutrin is increased from 1.9g per 6 oz of mix to 3.1g, it's still low on iodine, vitamin K (expected, because Alnutrin doesn't include vitamin K due to the controversy around the supplement), folic acid, and choline. It takes 9.1g to reach the right amount of Iodine. It does say online though that AAFCO requires far less Iodine than NRC. Clearly, I can't stop stressing about it.
I've done a fair amount of reading about the differences between AAFCO and NRC, and some of the nutrient requirements are quite a bit different. That's the only reason I can see why Alnutrin would be so horribly unbalanced on this program. Alnutrin's website does say it only meets AAFCO standards. I put in Pierson's recipe and it exceeded the majority of the requirements, often by over 1000%. In PDDs new versions, the basic home version isn't going to include the ability to switch to AAFCO requirements, but one of the Pro versions will.
I've done a fair amount of reading about the differences between AAFCO and NRC, and some of the nutrient requirements are quite a bit different. That's the only reason I can see why Alnutrin would be so horribly unbalanced on this program. Alnutrin's website does say it only meets AAFCO standards. I put in Pierson's recipe and it exceeded the majority of the requirements, often by over 1000%. In PDDs new versions, the basic home version isn't going to include the ability to switch to AAFCO requirements, but one of the Pro versions will.
Alnutrin showed up in the Foods list after I exited PDD then restarted it. Still can't see how to add an ingredient to a recipe though.
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- #18
Hmmmm....
The way it works for is when I first open the program I select Recipes from the top of the page. I click the green plus to start a new recipe, choose which pet it's for, etc. Once I'm in the annoying page with all the charts and stuff I usually close the bar charts and pie chart so there's less stuff everywhere while I'm adding the ingredients. Does yours look like this (after the annoying stuff is closed)?
The way it works for is when I first open the program I select Recipes from the top of the page. I click the green plus to start a new recipe, choose which pet it's for, etc. Once I'm in the annoying page with all the charts and stuff I usually close the bar charts and pie chart so there's less stuff everywhere while I'm adding the ingredients. Does yours look like this (after the annoying stuff is closed)?
The NRC and AAFCO recommendations actually aren't all that different.
Have you figured out why PDD says your Alnutrin food doesn't meet recommended protein levels? That really can't be true. Our home-made raw foods always far exceed protein recommendations.
Have you figured out why PDD says your Alnutrin food doesn't meet recommended protein levels? That really can't be true. Our home-made raw foods always far exceed protein recommendations.
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- #20
It does for some recipes but it doesn't for others, and it differs depending on the recipe size. It's annoying because even if I fed all raw, my cat wouldn't eat 6 ounces. She would eat maybe 4.5 ounces at most because she's old and she doesn't really move. At 3-4.5 ounces protein is too low. It's adequate at 6 ounces but that would be overfeeding by nearly 100 calories. The program doesn't let you set your own calories requirements for your pets; it sets it based on weight and age range (adult, kitten, lactating). It's not fair that you can choose the activity level for dogs but not for cats. I like to think this is the problem, but there's no way to know until the next update when it should be possible to alter calories.
