All These Raw Food Recalls..

[Neo_23]

It will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Rad Cat is one of those foods I always wanted to afford, but we just can't right now.
It sounds like they're digging into this to see what happened. I'd be upset if I were a consumer but so long as no one has reported an illness (great news!), it's good on the company to step forward and try to figure out what happened and prevent it in the future! =)

A friend of mine (also a raw feeder) that lives a few states east of us and I talked a week or so ago, and we got on the subject of raw feeding, and their supplier (well respected) had an issue with their building that created an "odor" in the food they produced. The food was safe, consumed by the business owners pets, etc. and no one was ill yet the company sent everyone a letter, stating that if they noticed an odor to the food (and were unhappy) they were encouraged to return for a refund/replacement. Super customer service. The food wasn't poisoned, tainted, but they stepped up and wanted to keep their reputation as excellent as it always was even though there was no real danger.

(Then, the conversation went to Hell when we both admitted to not caring about how tripe smells anymore and whether or not a tripe/spleen grind was preferable to a tripe only blend!)

It's definitely one of the pricier food options. I personally decided to start feeding it because my young girl is in the very early stages of kidney disease and I want to feed low phosphorus, high protein foods. There aren't many foods on the market that fit this description and that I feel comfortable with feeding unfortunately. I don't feed only Rad Cat though - I could never afford that.

 

[Neo_23]

They recommend that pregnant women not eat deli meats because it's expected that most deli meats are contaminated with a certain level of listeria. So obviously, for human foods the acceptable listeria level is something more than zero. Did the Rad Cat have a higher level of listeria than that?

Very good point!

So if the USDA allows for some level of contamination in raw meats sold for human consumption and if pet parents have been making raw pet food using human supermarket raw meats for years with very minimal health problems.. then that shows that cats can at least handle the level of contamination that is allowed in human-intended raw meats.

Now, the FDA has a zero-tolerance contamination policy for pet foods, so raw pet food companies have to recall any amount of pathogens found in their foods... even if it's not technically harmful to cats.

 

[EmmiTemmi]

Not to get political or start a debate or fight or whatever, but I feel the same way about raw milk. Raw milk from a clean farm from a healthy cow is a good thing for those who like/tolerate dairy, but I wouldn't touch raw milk from a grocer if you paid me, nor would I touch raw milk from a sick cow or from a cow living in filth. Milk from less-than-stellar operations MUST be sterilized, it's not safe to drink, and I'm starting to feel that way about mass-produced raw pet foods.

Absolutely not. Coming from a food scientist, specializing in the dairy field for my MS, with 3 internships during undergrad in dairy-based companies, small and large, please for the love of God, don't ever consume raw milk. From 'stellar' or 'less-than-stellar' operation, milk will never be safe until pasteurization. Pure organic, grass-fed, free-range, massaged, spoiled cows' milk will contain bacteria that could make you sick or kill you, particularly if you're young/old/pregnant/immunocompromised. Don't even tempt fate, it's not worth it. There is absolutely no benefit to it, and the risks you incur are severe and possibly life-threatening. I don't care how healthy your cow is. It poops, it eats, it lives in an environment with pathogens, it gets mastitis. Pasteurized milk has every single benefit raw does, without the risk of death/illness.

 

[1 bruce 1]

I've heard that lamb/mutton is the least likely to be contaminated. Because sheep are raised on pasture, not sent to feedlots, and the slaughterhouses that process sheep generally aren't as high-volume as the others.

I do like our lamb supplier, even though I was stoked we got a case of lamb hearts awhile back for our dogs and cats....and all but a few turned their noses up. Crazies!
We have a nice supplier of (ground or whole) lamb lung, which seems to be a nice mixture with other things we feed. I opt for it to be ground as it's easier to mix; interestingly enough one of our cats can't handle a lot of raw foods but tolerates some things. His IBD is helped with the addition of tripe to his canned food, and livers and hearts seem to "move things along" when he backs up.
Tonight I fed lamb lung and gave him a teaspoon as an offering with his canned food. Usually he bolts his canned food, then scarfs tripe (he likes it) and hearts and livers are carefully examined, then sometimes ingested. But he SCARFED the lung like he was starving; he's also asthmatic. He loved it and will be getting more of it in the future!

 

[Neo_23]

Just curious -- is there any particular meat that you would say is the "safest" in terms of having less chance of being contaminated? I always figured that feeding the proteins that companies use HPP with (usually chicken and turkey) would be the safest.

EmmiTemmi What is your perspective on this?

 

[1 bruce 1]

It's definitely one of the pricier food options. I personally decided to start feeding it because my young girl is in the very early stages of kidney disease and I want to feed low phosphorus, high protein foods. There aren't many foods on the market that fit this description and that I feel comfortable with feeding unfortunately. I don't feed only Rad Cat though - I could never afford that.

So sorry you've got a youngster dealing with early signs of CKD!! =(
One of our pups showed signs of higher than normal kidney levels after he was very sick, and we fed low phos. foods and his levels improved.
I think it's pretty awesome you've recognized the signs and chose to be proactive!

 

[1 bruce 1]

Absolutely not. Coming from a food scientist, specializing in the dairy field for my MS, with 3 internships during undergrad in dairy-based companies, small and large, please for the love of God, don't ever consume raw milk. From 'stellar' or 'less-than-stellar' operation, milk will never be safe until pasteurization. Pure organic, grass-fed, free-range, massaged, spoiled cows' milk will contain bacteria that could make you sick or kill you, particularly if you're young/old/pregnant/immunocompromised. Don't even tempt fate, it's not worth it. There is absolutely no benefit to it, and the risks you incur are severe and possibly life-threatening. I don't care how healthy your cow is. It poops, it eats, it lives in an environment with pathogens, it gets mastitis. Pasteurized milk has every single benefit raw does, without the risk of death/illness.

I'm curious, how have I consumed raw milk for decades without being sick/falling ill/dying?

 

[Neo_23]

So sorry you've got a youngster dealing with early signs of CKD!! =(
One of our pups showed signs of higher than normal kidney levels after he was very sick, and we fed low phos. foods and his levels improved.
I think it's pretty awesome you've recognized the signs and chose to be proactive!

Thanks, it definitely sucks but we're lucky we noticed it early. Her blood test was actually normal besides her high phosphorus level and her urinalysis showed dilute urine with small amounts of protein, so we're hoping we can get control of the issue before it gets worse.

 

[EmmiTemmi]

EmmiTemmi What is your perspective on this?

Safest meats? Well, other than being cooked (for human consumption), for animal consumption I wouldn't recommend any certain animal over another, because while I've taken several meat science classes, they focus mostly on a few livestock breeds. But, I would highly suggest the freshest whole cuts of meat you can get (processed properly to USDA standards). Whole meat in any healthy animal should be, for the most part, as 'safe' as you can get. My meat science classes always taught that whole muscle meat interior was as sterile as you could get, in regards to meat safety. Handling during slaughter also plays a factor, although USDA inspected facilities have strict policies they must adhere to in regards to carcass inspection and cleansing the carcass with acids/singeing/other sanitizing agents (I may have had to humbly bow out of a lamb slaughter lab day...).

But in regards to your previous posts, I do believe you're correct in stating that USDA (which control the meat industry standards) has very different policies than the FDA (One of my professors during undergrad would go on and on about the differences, if only I had paid more attention!). And personally, from what I've read about cat digestive systems (mostly in blogger-type articles, not many scientific ones, admittedly) the cat digestive system can handle more bacteria than the human one. So I'm with you in feeling that the system is rigged against raw. And I don't feel like I've read enough articles about cat systems in particular to recommend one meat over another, or what bacterial level is acceptable.

But for the purposes of the zero tolerance policy, in regards to humans who make contact with raw pet food, I understand where the recalls are coming from. People in the YOPI groups can become very ill through exposure to bacteria, and if the FDA wants to recall certain products, I get that. I'm very healthy, so none of the bacteria in the recalls would likely affect me, but if there's a possibility of it hurting someone else, I don't think I'd take the chance.

And then there's HPP (High Pressure Processing/Pasteurization). A fellow grad student is actually utilizing this in his research! Really interesting stuff, and if done right, should eliminate/inactivate most bacteria. I'd agree with previous posts that if the products had undergone HPP they must have either been mishandled prior to being obtained by the customer, or the HPP settings weren't set correctly to ensure proper bacterial inactivation.

Keep in mind, I am new to the pet food side of things. My education/research focuses on human foods.

 

[EmmiTemmi]

I'm curious, how have I consumed raw milk for decades without being sick/falling ill/dying?

Raw milk poses the most risk for young and immunocompromised people, but can also affect other YOPI group members, as well as the general public. I'm assuming you're not in the 'young' group. " At least one child younger than 5 was involved in 59% of the raw milk outbreaks reported to CDC from 2007 through 2012. Children aged 1 to 4 years accounted for 38% of Salmonella illnesses in these outbreaks and 28% of illnesses caused by Shiga toxin-producing E. coli, which can cause kidney failure and death."

Raw Milk Questions and Answers

It's just not a risk worth taking, for no nutritional benefit. None of my professors in food science have ever advocated it. None of the diary farmers I've met during internships have ever advocated for it. People can get sick, and people can die. Promoting raw milk is akin to promoting anti-vaxxers in food scientists' minds.

 

[Neo_23]

Safest meats? Well, other than being cooked (for human consumption), for animal consumption I wouldn't recommend any certain animal over another, because while I've taken several meat science classes, they focus mostly on a few livestock breeds. But, I would highly suggest the freshest whole cuts of meat you can get (processed properly to USDA standards). Whole meat in any healthy animal should be, for the most part, as 'safe' as you can get. My meat science classes always taught that whole muscle meat interior was as sterile as you could get, in regards to meat safety. Handling during slaughter also plays a factor, although USDA inspected facilities have strict policies they must adhere to in regards to carcass inspection and cleansing the carcass with acids/singeing/other sanitizing agents (I may have had to humbly bow out of a lamb slaughter lab day...).

But in regards to your previous posts, I do believe you're correct in stating that USDA (which control the meat industry standards) has very different policies than the FDA (One of my professors during undergrad would go on and on about the differences, if only I had paid more attention!). And personally, from what I've read about cat digestive systems (mostly in blogger-type articles, not many scientific ones, admittedly) the cat digestive system can handle more bacteria than the human one. So I'm with you in feeling that the system is rigged against raw. And I don't feel like I've read enough articles about cat systems in particular to recommend one meat over another, or what bacterial level is acceptable.

But for the purposes of the zero tolerance policy, in regards to humans who make contact with raw pet food, I understand where the recalls are coming from. People in the YOPI groups can become very ill through exposure to bacteria, and if the FDA wants to recall certain products, I get that. I'm very healthy, so none of the bacteria in the recalls would likely affect me, but if there's a possibility of it hurting someone else, I don't think I'd take the chance.

And then there's HPP (High Pressure Processing/Pasteurization). A fellow grad student is actually utilizing this in his research! Really interesting stuff, and if done right, should eliminate/inactivate most bacteria. I'd agree with previous posts that if the products had undergone HPP they must have either been mishandled prior to being obtained by the customer, or the HPP settings weren't set correctly to ensure proper bacterial inactivation.

Keep in mind, I am new to the pet food side of things. My education/research focuses on human foods.

Thanks for the info. That's really great to hear about HPP. I guess if anyone is worried about raw meat contamination it would be good to try and purchase commercial pet foods that go through HPP processing from a trusted company.

It does say on Rad Cat's website that they use whole meats. I have always trusted this company up until now and they are being quite transparent about the recall so I guess there's no reason to suddenly stop trusting them at this point. Plus the fact that one of the recalls was for a batch that was released long ago... I'm sure many cats have already ate it and turned out fine. So the level of contamination probably wasn't that bad.

 

[sophie1]

The differences between USDA and FDA tolerance for bacteria in raw meat is interesting. I suspect that the problem with FDA's bacteria testing is that most strains of salmonella, listeria etc are harmless and commonly present. The testing doesn't discriminate between those and the dangerous strains. I'm not sure you can conclude that detections are indicative of poor food handling practices (though it's possible of course).

The idea that meat for human consumption doesn't require such strict controls because cooking renders it safe is kinda silly when you think about it. People don't run their kitchens like biohazard labs. They undercook meat, use the same utensils for different foods at the same time, don't sanitize work surfaces or dishes, taste foods in the process of being cooked...let me count the ways there could be exposures. Not to mention that raw meat dishes in homes & restaurants are not that uncommon: sushi, sashimi, steak tartare, Lebanese kibbe, egg nog, etc. I would imagine that a testing program for human food like that being conducted by the FDA on pet food would have similar findings: many positive test results, but no corresponding food-borne illness.

Not saying commercial vendors should stop HPP or testing. Having low-bacteria commercial foods is important for cats being transitioned to raw, because they're not used to the bacterial loads - kind of like when you visit a foreign country and drink the water, which doesn't bother local residents but gives you Montezuma's revenge. Using fresh, homemade foods for my cats works fine since they're used to raw. I even think that bacteria in my fresh homemade foods may be important for cat health - and possibly even helpful for me, who knows.

 

[lisahe]

First off, Neo_23 , thank you for starting this thread. This is such a difficult -- and thus necessary -- topic for any of us who feed raw food and the questions you ask are just right. It's great to read all these thoughtful posts. And I had no idea that EmmiTemmi is a food scientist, so special thanks for eliciting that information, too!

My mother is a dietitian, so I grew up with lots of food safety guidelines! This is the big reason that I, like @furmonster mom, feel so imperfect in my handling of meat for cat food. Despite my food safety training early on in life, I can say that, like sophie1 , I do not run my kitchen like a biohazard lab! This is a big reason why I only make cooked homemade: I don't trust myself to use the meat quickly enough. And I hate wondering if I wash everything thoroughly enough. (I refuse to use bleach in the kitchen because of the other side of the proverbial coin: not wanting to help superbugs develop.) I also don't trust what I buy, largely because I'm just not sure how the meat was handled and stored. I used to work at a supermarket company so have a fair bit of confidence but I also wonder about all the chances for lapses from the farm to my kitchen counter... there are enough recalls of food for humans that this gives me pause. And then (bonus story!) I also remember going to dinner at a Japanese restaurant with a pathologist and his wife: his wife and my husband ordered sushi but the pathologist and I ordered cooked food. He said he would never, ever eat sushi, the same advice my mother gave me years before! (Not that it matters: I just don't like sushi or raw fish anyway.)

What puzzles me most about this Rad Cat recall is that they're using HPP on their poultry foods and they say HPP kills listeria. (I looked up their announcements about HPP: RC apparently started using it in 2016.) This all makes me wonder about the trust issues that @cheesycats mentions. Did something go wrong with HPPing? I also wonder why they don't mention listeria testing on their site, in the "test and hold" description. With so much attention on listeria, I would think they'd want to add listeria testing to that program. "Test and hold" and HPP are two big reasons I've always trusted Rad Cat but this all makes me wonder.

In the end, though, everything comes down to the question of how do you feed a cat? I feel like a lot of the challenges are the same as they are for feeding myself: minimizing risks as best I can and recognizing/accepting the risks I'm willing to take. Raw foods, including Rad Cat, are still on the menu but I have to admit that I do like to let food sit in the freezer or on the shelf for a while before feeding, as @1bruce1 mentioned, as a just in case! I'd already been thinking, on and off, about making more cooked homemade food so maybe this will be another reason to do it.

 

[Neo_23]

What puzzles me most about this Rad Cat recall is that they're using HPP on their poultry foods and they say HPP kills listeria. (I looked up their announcements about HPP: RC apparently started using it in 2016.) This all makes me wonder about the trust issues that @cheesycats mentions. Did something go wrong with HPPing? I also wonder why they don't mention listeria testing on their site, in the "test and hold" description. With so much attention on listeria, I would think they'd want to add listeria testing to that program. "Test and hold" and HPP are two big reasons I've always trusted Rad Cat but this all makes me wonder.

I noticed that too. Their website doesn’t state they test for Listeria before release. You know, it just may be a good thing for raw consumers that the FDA is being tough on these companies because it keeps them on their toes and may ensure that their products are even safer.

 

[1 bruce 1]

Raw milk poses the most risk for young and immunocompromised people, but can also affect other YOPI group members, as well as the general public. I'm assuming you're not in the 'young' group. " At least one child younger than 5 was involved in 59% of the raw milk outbreaks reported to CDC from 2007 through 2012. Children aged 1 to 4 years accounted for 38% of Salmonella illnesses in these outbreaks and 28% of illnesses caused by Shiga toxin-producing E. coli, which can cause kidney failure and death."

Raw Milk Questions and Answers

It's just not a risk worth taking, for no nutritional benefit. None of my professors in food science have ever advocated it. None of the diary farmers I've met during internships have ever advocated for it. People can get sick, and people can die. Promoting raw milk is akin to promoting anti-vaxxers in food scientists' minds.

In that case, all food must be boycotted as people have died from tainted meat (remember the beef "mad cow" stuff from the '90's?), and vegetables have been tainted as well as people getting food poisoning from restaurants or their own kitchens.
I could say a lot more, but without hijacking this thread...

As far as the raw thing goes, it's interesting to me that I've heard 50/50 stories from kibble to raw feeders; some say their dogs or cats thrived on the new diet and others said their pet ate it but got horribly ill.
It kind of bites that we can't pinpoint those reactions; did the ones that got sick have bad digestive health, were they immune-compromised without anyone's knowledge, etc?

 

[1 bruce 1]

First off, Neo_23 , thank you for starting this thread. This is such a difficult -- and thus necessary -- topic for any of us who feed raw food and the questions you ask are just right. It's great to read all these thoughtful posts. And I had no idea that EmmiTemmi is a food scientist, so special thanks for eliciting that information, too!

My mother is a dietitian, so I grew up with lots of food safety guidelines! This is the big reason that I, like @furmonster mom, feel so imperfect in my handling of meat for cat food. Despite my food safety training early on in life, I can say that, like sophie1 , I do not run my kitchen like a biohazard lab! This is a big reason why I only make cooked homemade: I don't trust myself to use the meat quickly enough. And I hate wondering if I wash everything thoroughly enough. (I refuse to use bleach in the kitchen because of the other side of the proverbial coin: not wanting to help superbugs develop.) I also don't trust what I buy, largely because I'm just not sure how the meat was handled and stored. I used to work at a supermarket company so have a fair bit of confidence but I also wonder about all the chances for lapses from the farm to my kitchen counter... there are enough recalls of food for humans that this gives me pause. And then (bonus story!) I also remember going to dinner at a Japanese restaurant with a pathologist and his wife: his wife and my husband ordered sushi but the pathologist and I ordered cooked food. He said he would never, ever eat sushi, the same advice my mother gave me years before! (Not that it matters: I just don't like sushi or raw fish anyway.)

What puzzles me most about this Rad Cat recall is that they're using HPP on their poultry foods and they say HPP kills listeria. (I looked up their announcements about HPP: RC apparently started using it in 2016.) This all makes me wonder about the trust issues that @cheesycats mentions. Did something go wrong with HPPing? I also wonder why they don't mention listeria testing on their site, in the "test and hold" description. With so much attention on listeria, I would think they'd want to add listeria testing to that program. "Test and hold" and HPP are two big reasons I've always trusted Rad Cat but this all makes me wonder.

In the end, though, everything comes down to the question of how do you feed a cat? I feel like a lot of the challenges are the same as they are for feeding myself: minimizing risks as best I can and recognizing/accepting the risks I'm willing to take. Raw foods, including Rad Cat, are still on the menu but I have to admit that I do like to let food sit in the freezer or on the shelf for a while before feeding, as @1bruce1 mentioned, as a just in case! I'd already been thinking, on and off, about making more cooked homemade food so maybe this will be another reason to do it.

I like Dr. Pierson's compromise; she lightly cooks/sears meat but leaves the interior pink and raw, or "almost" raw =)
A lot of people IIRC fed cooked diets after the 2007 melamine scare but some of the recipes were (and are) horribly unbalanced to be fed long term, and many abandoned this once the scare wore off.

 

[EmmiTemmi]

In that case, all food must be boycotted as people have died from tainted meat (remember the beef "mad cow" stuff from the '90's?), and vegetables have been tainted as well as people getting food poisoning from restaurants or their own kitchens.

Yes, but in this case the illness is easily prevented by pasteurization. Of all fluid milk related food-borne illness outbreaks, 4 out of 5 are from raw milk. Why take that chance?
But like you said, , I'm glad you've found something that works for you.

The differences between USDA and FDA tolerance for bacteria in raw meat is interesting. I suspect that the problem with FDA's bacteria testing is that most strains of salmonella, listeria etc are harmless and commonly present. The testing doesn't discriminate between those and the dangerous strains.

Yeah, I was actually looking into this more today and found that serotype really doesn't matter:

But that's only in pet food. In animal feed they actually have more relaxed rules:

Their reasoning for the difference is "FDA believes regulatory action is warranted in cases involving pet foods contaminated with any Salmonella serotype, due to the heightened human health risk given the high
likelihood of direct human contact with such food." and "FDA believes the likelihood of direct human contact with animal feed is substantially lower than for pet foods."

I understand their intentions behind that. They just want the public to be safe, and there are a lot of people handling pet food every day, including YOPI group individuals. And in the same line of thought, even 'harmless' bacteria present can be indicators of poor handling and the possibility of harmful strains somewhere in the process. Which means it is for the benefit of the greater community to limit even non-pathogenic strains of certain bacteria in pet food. Also, this strict control over the microbial state of pet foods ensures that the companies producing them are working their hardest to produce a well-processed, safely handled food product. Which is a win for pet-parents.

And when I was looking at USDA documents, they allow up to 25% of samples to be salmonella positive in comminuted (ground?) chicken. If raw ground pet food was held to USDA standards for Salmonella, I don't think as many recalls would occur (But USDA assumes the meat in their list is being cooked, I don't know about the meat the judge that is intended for raw consumption). I could only find the data for poultry so far, and only for Salmonella and Campylobacter. If you know where their other meat and bacteria standards are, let me know!

Anyway, I had fun looking this stuff up!

 

[lisahe]

I like Dr. Pierson's compromise; she lightly cooks/sears meat but leaves the interior pink and raw, or "almost" raw =)
A lot of people IIRC fed cooked diets after the 2007 melamine scare but some of the recipes were (and are) horribly unbalanced to be fed long term, and many abandoned this once the scare wore off.

Yes, I like Dr. Pierson's compromise! I made that recipe once (with bone meal instead of bone) and the cats loved it. I've thought about maybe making that again, but since I don't really like dealing with all the individual nutrients, maybe I'll try the partial-cook method with skin-on, bone-out chicken thighs and use the EZComplete supplement. Hmm, a thought!

 

[1 bruce 1]

Yes, I like Dr. Pierson's compromise! I made that recipe once (with bone meal instead of bone) and the cats loved it. I've thought about maybe making that again, but since I don't really like dealing with all the individual nutrients, maybe I'll try the partial-cook method with skin-on, bone-out chicken thighs and use the EZComplete supplement. Hmm, a thought!

Would Alnutrin be a good compromise? I know others here have used it too, as well as EZComplete!

Another option would be keeping a stock pile of meat, either partial cooked or raw in your freezer (assuming space isn't an issue) for any "emergency" food situations. (I always prefer to pre-cook any cooked diets, so it's thaw 'n' serve!)

 

[lisahe]

Would Alnutrin be a good compromise? I know others here have used it too, as well as EZComplete!

Another option would be keeping a stock pile of meat, either partial cooked or raw in your freezer (assuming space isn't an issue) for any "emergency" food situations. (I always prefer to pre-cook any cooked diets, so it's thaw 'n' serve!)

I already use EZComplete but have thought about trying Alnutrin, too, for more variety.

And yes, our freezer also has lots of various kinds of cat foods and meats just waiting! There's raw meat to be cooked for homemade with EZ, portioned-out containers of Rad Cat and Purr, and pre-made cooked EZ meals. I'm definitely into thaw 'n' serve, too! I was very happy with myself last week for amassing a three-week supply in the freezer. Tomorrow's grocery day so if there's anything marked down that the cats like (usually a good bet--there's almost always something with a short expiry date), I'll make more food over the weekend. We really know how to have fun around here!