All These Raw Food Recalls..

[Neo_23]

Can we talk about all of these raw food recalls happening in the past 2 months? I think there have been about 15 of them so far in 2018, most are based on random testing conducted by state departments of agriculture. The most recent one hits home because I am feeding Radcat every day and I genuinely believed it to be the best pet food on the market. I'm not saying that this recall necessarily changes my mind, but it sucks seeing a food that you feed your cat every day and think is healthy in a negative light.

What are people's thoughts about the recalls? A part of me is a bit critical and believes that the FDA is directly targeting raw pet food companies and that if dry food was being randomly tested to the same extent we would see just as many, if not more, recalls. But another part of me wonders if we should be concerned with feeding our pets raw food?

I'm also confused because many of these companies claim to test their batches before releasing them to the public.

I'm just hoping to have an open discussion...

Edit: Sorry... I could have sworn I posted this in the raw sub-forum. At least I meant to.

 

[duckpond]

I think, personally, that Raw will always be more likely to test positive for bacterial contamination, such as salmonella, and Listeria, that type of thing. Just like human food is. Im sure they test, but the contamination may not show up strong enough when released, but then multiplies after, just my guess.

Kibble and wet are more problematic in other ways, such as ingredients we don't want, or high carbs, but things that don't cause them to get recalled. Although they do sometimes.

I was feeding my cat Stella and chewy when they had their Listeria recall a few years ago, my batch was included. I knew she had thrown up a few times after eating, so i had quit feeding it to her. The others never would touch it anyway. I felt so guilty afterwards. But she was fine. I still think Stella and chewy are a good brand but i cant feed it again. I know it can happen with any brand, but somehow it seemed personal when it was the food i was feeding.

 

[cheesycats]

Honestly I think it goes hand in hand which the level of trustworthiness pet food companies have. Seems like every company raw or kibble wise likes to cut corners however they possibly can to save money. It happens to the best of them. I mean take blue buffalo for example. That company back when it was first founded was thought to be some of the best quality foods for cats and dogs and now some decade or two later they have finally sold out after a gross display of negligence with all the recalls they’ve been having. I think the majority of foods that go under these recalls are just miss handled in some way.
I think it was Darwin’s I saw an article on who were severely breaking rules in their production factory. Where someone (with the fda I think or some type of agency) even noticed they had let a pallet of food sit out for who knows why or how long and the packaging the food was in had gotten soggy and nasty. So who knows how many times Darwin’s was doing that with who knows how many batches then just sticking it in the freezer and hoping for the best. You never hear this many recalls over raw meats in the human food industry. Yeah there are some but just not as many. There are too many guidelines that have to be followed and heavy penalties if they aren’t. Handling just has to be the biggest issue for me. I just can’t get over it. Someone somewhere is cutting corners or stuff is just being sat out in the open air too long and the proper sanitization isn’t being used with these foods. Whether it’s the company not knowing their stuff or being cheap and not snaitizing stuff enough who knows. But in my opinion making the food yourself. Sourcing the food from trustworthy butchers and handling it correctly will eliminate most if not all problems with raw food diets.

 

[furmonster mom]

This is why I prefer to make my own. But even then, I know I'm not always perfect. Sometimes the meats might sit in the 'fridge for an extra day before I get to making a batch, or sometimes the selection of meat at the store is not always the best, or... or... or...

I don't know what the tolerance margins are for commercial foods, but I expect there to be pathogens ... whether it be raw, wet, or kibble. It just seems unavoidable, especially with the volume in commercial production.

So, I think it's a good thing they are keeping an eye on it. I would simply acknowledge the issue, deal with it appropriately (toss the batch), and move on.

Now, whether the inspections are targeting raw more is another (speculative) matter entirely.

 

[Neo_23]

You never hear this many recalls over raw meats in the human food industry. Yeah there are some but just not as many. There are too many guidelines that have to be followed and heavy penalties if they aren’t. Handling just has to be the biggest issue for me. I just can’t get over it. Someone somewhere is cutting corners or stuff is just being sat out in the open air too long and the proper sanitization isn’t being used with these foods. Whether it’s the company not knowing their stuff or being cheap and not snaitizing stuff enough who knows. But in my opinion making the food yourself. Sourcing the food from trustworthy butchers and handling it correctly will eliminate most if not all problems with raw food diets.

It's really interesting that you mention this because I have read in multiple places that there are actually stricter regulations on bacteria in raw pet food than human raw food. Someone correct me if I'm wrong (I'm not American) but human food is controlled by the USDA? whereas raw pet food is controlled by the FDA. The USDA allows some level of bacterial contamination in raw foods sold for human consumption, but the FDA has a strict zero tolerance policy on bacteria in raw pet food. This kind of makes sense given that raw human food is intended to be cooked. But, this, coupled with the fact that many raw food companies add a "kill" (HPP) step and test their products before release almost makes me feel like raw pet food should be safer than raw human food.

 

[Neo_23]

Here's Dr. Jean Dodd's view on the subject of raw human vs. pet foods and control.

"As I mentioned in the previous post, the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) regulates meat processed for human consumption, whereas the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Center for Veterinary Medicine regulates meat processed for the pet food industry. This is an important distinction, as the FDA and USDA maintain different tolerances for pathogens allowed in meat products.

Any food that is adulterated (i.e. – contaminated) is illegal to sell under Title 21, Section 500.35 of the FDA’s Food, Drug and Cosmetic Act, which states in pertinent part:

“ …salmonella contamination of…animal feeds… must be regarded as an adulterant…” Title 21 makes it clear that, according to law, the FDA has a zero-tolerance pathogen policy for all commercial pet foods – including raw foods.

The USDA does not employ the same zero-tolerance pathogen policy for foods purchased at your local grocery store for human consumption. So, why don’t people become ill from grocery store meat more often? The answer is likely because the meat most people eat is cooked, thereby killing the pathogens.

When you feed this same meat to your pet in a raw state, no safeguard has been taken to ensure destruction of harmful organisms. If you are feeding a healthy pet, it is unlikely she will suffer any ill effects. However, the likelihood of human contact with potentially harmful pathogens may be increased compared with exposure to commercial raw diets manufactured using HPP. Pets with compromised immune systems may also be at higher risk of succumbing to illness related to these pathogens."

Full blog entry is at this link.

 

[cheesycats]

I’m not 100% sure of the ins and outs of how human and pet food regulations differ however if what you say is accurate it furthers my point. If raw food companies are suppose to be doing these disinfection methods to make the food safer and it’s still having so many issues then something is getting glossed over somewhere.

 

[Neo_23]

I’m not 100% sure of the ins and outs of how human and pet food regulations differ however if what you say is accurate it furthers my point. If raw food companies are suppose to be doing these disinfection methods to make the food safer and it’s still having so many issues then something is getting glossed over somewhere.

True, or perhaps we are missing something that happened at the time from when the food was dispatched to the retail store, purchased by the individuals at the department of agriculture and sent to the lab for testing.

 

[1 bruce 1]

Can we talk about all of these raw food recalls happening in the past 2 months? I think there have been about 15 of them so far in 2018, most are based on random testing conducted by state departments of agriculture. The most recent one hits home because I am feeding Radcat every day and I genuinely believed it to be the best pet food on the market. I'm not saying that this recall necessarily changes my mind, but it sucks seeing a food that you feed your cat every day and think is healthy in a negative light.

What are people's thoughts about the recalls? A part of me is a bit critical and believes that the FDA is directly targeting raw pet food companies and that if dry food was being randomly tested to the same extent we would see just as many, if not more, recalls. But another part of me wonders if we should be concerned with feeding our pets raw food?

I'm also confused because many of these companies claim to test their batches before releasing them to the public.

I'm just hoping to have an open discussion...

Edit: Sorry... I could have sworn I posted this in the raw sub-forum. At least I meant to.

I had the same thought as you on the critical targeting...this seems a little weird.
I'm not saying it's impossible but...definitely weird.
With that said, I take note of any food I'm feeding being recalled for possible salmonella, but I don't usually freak unless I'm feeding this food to an immuno-compromised pet, a sick pet, or a pet with serious digestive issues that are difficult to control. I'm 100% positive that if I tested the lamb that my dogs got tonight, it would be positive for salmonella...

 

[1 bruce 1]

If HPP is being done correctly but problems still arise, IMO there's either a serious storage problem in transit/storage or the meat used is from filthy sources. (Again, JMO!)
Not to get political or start a debate or fight or whatever, but I feel the same way about raw milk. Raw milk from a clean farm from a healthy cow is a good thing for those who like/tolerate dairy, but I wouldn't touch raw milk from a grocer if you paid me, nor would I touch raw milk from a sick cow or from a cow living in filth. Milk from less-than-stellar operations MUST be sterilized, it's not safe to drink, and I'm starting to feel that way about mass-produced raw pet foods. If the operation is large, in high demand, and corners must be cut/numbers must be increased to meet demands, stuff will get missed...
Please don't murder me, JMO.

 

[Neo_23]

If HPP is being done correctly but problems still arise, IMO there's either a serious storage problem in transit/storage or the meat used is from filthy sources. (Again, JMO!)
Not to get political or start a debate or fight or whatever, but I feel the same way about raw milk. Raw milk from a clean farm from a healthy cow is a good thing for those who like/tolerate dairy, but I wouldn't touch raw milk from a grocer if you paid me, nor would I touch raw milk from a sick cow or from a cow living in filth. Milk from less-than-stellar operations MUST be sterilized, it's not safe to drink, and I'm starting to feel that way about mass-produced raw pet foods. If the operation is large, in high demand, and corners must be cut/numbers must be increased to meet demands, stuff will get missed...
Please don't murder me, JMO.

Fair enough.. do we know how effective HPP is? Is it supposed to kill 100% of pathogens?

Radcat is supposed to use only organically farmed meats, they are one of the most expensive raw foods partly because of how they source their meat. They're supposed to be a very reputable company.

On their website they state: "Rad Cat has always sought to produce products made from animals that have been humanely-raised and that are raised eating foods that are as natural as possible."

Of course, this isn't a guarantee that all of their meats come from reputable sources, only that they try. Oh, and they also make the claim that their food is human-grade.

 

[1 bruce 1]

Fair enough.. do we know how effective HPP is? Is it supposed to kill 100% of pathogens?

Radcat is supposed to use only organically farmed meats, they are one of the most expensive raw foods partly because of how they source their meat. They're supposed to be a very reputable company.

On their website they state: "Rad Cat has always sought to produce products made from animals that have been humanely-raised and that are raised eating foods that are as natural as possible."

Of course, this isn't a guarantee that all of their meats come from reputable sources, only that they try. Oh, and they also make the claim that their food is human-grade and human-edible (if cooked, obviously).

On HPP effectiveness....I don't know! =(
I don't currently feed HPP meats, but I have in the past and the only issue I had was that the particular grind I was using was too bone heavy for the pets I was using it for, and needed bulked out. (Affordable boneless chicken as a bulk out was met with a "sigh...FINE" but not-so-affordable rabbit meat was met with "THANKS!!! LOVE YOU! ", sigh...brats, LOL
Do places like Rad Cat do their own packing? If the meat came to them contaminated, is it their fault or the fault of the meat supplier, or did the salmonella grow from poor handling in transit or poor handling (freezers at the wrong temperatures, etc.) at the distributor? I didn't read Rad Cat's recall for myself, so these questions aren't rhetorical...yet, it seems there's little to no "good" answers.
Then again, it would be easy for a company with a good reputation to gloss over this and ignore it and pretend nothing is wrong. Part of me is totally cynical but part of me wonders if a company in business for "X" number of years that experiences one problem should be blamed for being "bad" or accepted that sometimes **** happens? I'm not sure.

 

[Neo_23]

On HPP effectiveness....I don't know! =(
I don't currently feed HPP meats, but I have in the past and the only issue I had was that the particular grind I was using was too bone heavy for the pets I was using it for, and needed bulked out. (Affordable boneless chicken as a bulk out was met with a "sigh...FINE" but not-so-affordable rabbit meat was met with "THANKS!!! LOVE YOU! ", sigh...brats, LOL
Do places like Rad Cat do their own packing? If the meat came to them contaminated, is it their fault or the fault of the meat supplier, or did the salmonella grow from poor handling in transit or poor handling (freezers at the wrong temperatures, etc.) at the distributor? I didn't read Rad Cat's recall for myself, so these questions aren't rhetorical...yet, it seems there's little to no "good" answers.
Then again, it would be easy for a company with a good reputation to gloss over this and ignore it and pretend nothing is wrong. Part of me is totally cynical but part of me wonders if a company in business for "X" number of years that experiences one problem should be blamed for being "bad" or accepted that sometimes **** happens? I'm not sure.

All good questions -- according to Rad Cat, they had tested the batches and they had been cleared before being provided to distributors. They are currently investigating how the contamination could have occurred.

It seems like they have a pretty comprehensive safety and quality program, they also use ozone technology.

Rad Cat Raw Cat Food Portland Oregon

They state:
All poultry arrives at our plant sealed in plastic bags. These bags are rinsed with ozonated water, which will kill any pathogens on the outside of the bags. We use ozonated water throughout our manufacturing process on our equipment and all food contact surfaces. Ozone is a very reliable intervention step for pathogen reduction/elimination and is a completely natural process.

Our products are still produced by hand. Even though we incorporate some larger equipment, our experienced employees (some who have been with us for many years) still do much of the processing by hand. As our production is not automated, our employees visually inspect and monitor the temperature of the product through every stage of the production process.

 

[1 bruce 1]

Just checked the RC recall...
Listeria (not good) but no illness reported (good), recall was voluntary (good) but the product was distributed 3+ months ago (not good as most of this has probably been fed) but then again if it was fed and no one was harmed (good), but why only now test food that's been on the shelves after 3 months (not good?!), etc. etc. etc.

I read once from a dog person that they were concerned about recalls...so they kept a 9-12 months supply of food (fed in order that it was bought), and kept ahead and regularly replenished that food supply, because they felt that if a recall happened the food would probably (hopefully) be sitting there, un-opened and un-fed, on a shelf, and not sitting half-used.
Storage wise this might be an issue (especially if you have a lot of cats, a lot of dogs, a lot of both, or have pets on different diets), not to mention cost prohibitive at first, but every time a recall happens, this persons advice goes through my head.

 

[Willowy]

If any company uses commercially-raised meats, it's to be expected that it'll have some contamination, especially poultry. Poultry-raising is a filthy business. They put the chicks in a barn and then don't clean the barn the entire 8-12 weeks (chickens are slaughtered at 8 weeks, turkeys at 12 weeks). So ick. Feedlots and hog confinements aren't so great either.

I just watched one of my cats eat a mouse he caught. I don't know where that mouse has been. Although it probably didn't have salmonella. . .. But e. coli? Sure, every animal has e. coli in their intestines. I think cats are generally equipped to handle that kind of thing.

They recommend that pregnant women not eat deli meats because it's expected that most deli meats are contaminated with a certain level of listeria. So obviously, for human foods the acceptable listeria level is something more than zero. Did the Rad Cat have a higher level of listeria than that?

 

[Neo_23]

Just checked the RC recall...
Listeria (not good) but no illness reported (good), recall was voluntary (good) but the product was distributed 3+ months ago (not good as most of this has probably been fed) but then again if it was fed and no one was harmed (good), but why only now test food that's been on the shelves after 3 months (not good?!), etc. etc. etc.

I read once from a dog person that they were concerned about recalls...so they kept a 9-12 months supply of food (fed in order that it was bought), and kept ahead and regularly replenished that food supply, because they felt that if a recall happened the food would probably (hopefully) be sitting there, un-opened and un-fed, on a shelf, and not sitting half-used.
Storage wise this might be an issue (especially if you have a lot of cats, a lot of dogs, a lot of both, or have pets on different diets), not to mention cost prohibitive at first, but every time a recall happens, this persons advice goes through my head.

Several of the raw food recalls have been for products released on the market over a year ago.

I completely agree with you and W Willowy that some level of contamination is to be expected with raw food. The point is that cats can handle it, their digestive systems are bulit to deal with it. That's why there are raw food diets for cats and not humans.

I think it would be more informative to know the level of contamination in the food. And if we actually had more research on the level of pathogens that a cat's stomach can handle then we could actually decide whether the level found in the food is to be considered "dangerous."

 

[Neo_23]

If any company uses commercially-raised meats, it's to be expected that it'll have some contamination, especially poultry. Poultry-raising is a filthy business. They put the chicks in a barn and then don't clean the barn the entire 8-12 weeks (chickens are slaughtered at 8 weeks, turkeys at 12 weeks). So ick. Feedlots and hog confinements aren't so great either.

Just curious -- is there any particular meat that you would say is the "safest" in terms of having less chance of being contaminated? I always figured that feeding the proteins that companies use HPP with (usually chicken and turkey) would be the safest.

 

[1 bruce 1]

All good questions -- according to Rad Cat, they had tested the batches and they had been cleared before being provided to distributors. They are currently investigating how the contamination could have occurred.

It seems like they have a pretty comprehensive safety and quality program, they also use ozone technology.

Rad Cat Raw Cat Food Portland Oregon

They state:
All poultry arrives at our plant sealed in plastic bags. These bags are rinsed with ozonated water, which will kill any pathogens on the outside of the bags. We use ozonated water throughout our manufacturing process on our equipment and all food contact surfaces. Ozone is a very reliable intervention step for pathogen reduction/elimination and is a completely natural process.

Our products are still produced by hand. Even though we incorporate some larger equipment, our experienced employees (some who have been with us for many years) still do much of the processing by hand. As our production is not automated, our employees visually inspect and monitor the temperature of the product through every stage of the production process.

It will be interesting to see what comes of this.
Rad Cat is one of those foods I always wanted to afford, but we just can't right now.
It sounds like they're digging into this to see what happened. I'd be upset if I were a consumer but so long as no one has reported an illness (great news!), it's good on the company to step forward and try to figure out what happened and prevent it in the future! =)

A friend of mine (also a raw feeder) that lives a few states east of us and I talked a week or so ago, and we got on the subject of raw feeding, and their supplier (well respected) had an issue with their building that created an "odor" in the food they produced. The food was safe, consumed by the business owners pets, etc. and no one was ill yet the company sent everyone a letter, stating that if they noticed an odor to the food (and were unhappy) they were encouraged to return for a refund/replacement. Super customer service. The food wasn't poisoned, tainted, but they stepped up and wanted to keep their reputation as excellent as it always was even though there was no real danger.

(Then, the conversation went to Hell when we both admitted to not caring about how tripe smells anymore and whether or not a tripe/spleen grind was preferable to a tripe only blend!)

 

[Willowy]

I've heard that lamb/mutton is the least likely to be contaminated. Because sheep are raised on pasture, not sent to feedlots, and the slaughterhouses that process sheep generally aren't as high-volume as the others.

 

[1 bruce 1]

If any company uses commercially-raised meats, it's to be expected that it'll have some contamination, especially poultry. Poultry-raising is a filthy business. They put the chicks in a barn and then don't clean the barn the entire 8-12 weeks (chickens are slaughtered at 8 weeks, turkeys at 12 weeks). So ick. Feedlots and hog confinements aren't so great either.

I just watched one of my cats eat a mouse he caught. I don't know where that mouse has been. Although it probably didn't have salmonella. . .. But e. coli? Sure, every animal has e. coli in their intestines. I think cats are generally equipped to handle that kind of thing.

They recommend that pregnant women not eat deli meats because it's expected that most deli meats are contaminated with a certain level of listeria. So obviously, for human foods the acceptable listeria level is something more than zero. Did the Rad Cat have a higher level of listeria than that?

This is the ethical thing, because chicks (to me) are some of the cutest things and chickens are extremely intelligent and social creatures. It bugs me that they're treated so unfairly in so many commercial operations, but on the same note, when the demand for the meat (for human OR pet consumption) is so high, can something be done?
I was lucky enough to watch a batch of chicks raised as backyard pets, only for their eggs, and their hierarchy and intelligence is scary-awesome.
I figure if something is slaughtered at 8-12 weeks....don't they at least deserve humane treatment? You're right--poultry raising is filthy business. =( And baby chicks are almost (*ALMOST*) as cute as kittens in their mannerisms, movements, and play. (I'm not a PETA member or animal rights activist, but I do believe in animal welfare and I do believe that welfare should extend to food animals...)
I won't even go there with the treatments of pork. It's terrible =(
I didn't know that about deli meats. That's kind of gross, and disturbing!

My cats eat mice they catch, or at least usually. I've found heads, tails, and one of my girls caught a mouse, ate half of it, said "meh, I'm full, LOL someone else will clean it up" and abandoned this half-eaten mouse at our bedroom door. Do you have any idea what it's like to oversleep, wake up with a start, leap out of bed, throw open the door and step on a dead mouse that's only physically "there" from the shoulders up? It's not a good start to the day