88% meat, organs and bone; 12% veggies

[irinasak]

I keep coming across this 88% meat, organs and bone; 12% veggies on the mercola site (I hyperlinked one article, I will look for the others if you are interested).

Can you please tell me your opinion on this? As far as I can tell, most of raw feeding recommendations are something like  80% muscle meat + 5% liver + 5% other secreting organ + 10% bone, or at least this is the version I found in most of my readings, so the veggies recommendation intrigue me.

Thanks.

 

[pinkman]

Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats is Based on B.A.R.F. Philosophy

The recipes we include are proportioned as follows:

Dogs – 75% meat, organs and bone; 25% veggies and fruits
Cats – 88% meat, organs and bone; 12% veggies

(http://healthypets.mercola.com/site...-diet-sparks-online-demand-for-wild-game.aspx)

I'm assuming that the 88% meat, organ, and bones along with the 12% veggies is for the B.A.R.F. diet as I quoted there.

That said, I believe that the PMR model (80% muscle, 5% liver, 5% secreting organ, 10% bone) is more suited for a cat's body. I'm not quite sure what kind of vegetation I'd include if I were doing the B.A.R.F. diet - possibly pumpkin for fiber/poop issues but I've had more luck just decreasing the amount of bone to 7%. 

 

[laralove]

I fail to see the point of the veggies. In the wild, the only vegetation a cat gets is from the stomachs of its non-carnivorous prey. I doubt that would come up to 12%.

 

[mschauer]

Dr. Becker's recommendation recognizes that the animal bits and pieces we generally use in making a home-made diet for a cat really can't be considered the equivalent of the whole fresh prey cats have evolved to eat. Not only would a cat's real prey have plant matter in it's stomach it would also have nutrients stored throughout it's tissues that it derived from previous meals; nutrients that our animal bits and pieces may be lacking due to the animal not having been fed *their* natural diet.

Whether or not  it is beneficial to include vegtables in a home-made diet for a cat is a matter of contention among raw feeders.  

 

[ritz]

When I was first feeding Ritz raw (whole prey raw/frankenprey), I followed the 80/10/5/5% proportion exactly. Ritz got constipated on 10% bone, so I adjusted it to around 7% and upped the 80% protein to around 83%.
Ritz poops are firm; if too firm, I add a little fat. I would hesitate to go below 7% in bone.
hat is the extent of my 'tinkering' with the guidelines. In my opinion, I think you start out following the guidelines and then adjust according to the needs of your cat.

 

[poppcorn3girlie]

I would never feed veggies to a cat. Whether or not they get "vegetation" in their diet when they eat whole prey is not the issue, the issue is that chopped up veggies / blanched veggies / vegetable pulp is not the same thing as rumen... At all... The enzymes found in the digestive track of herbivores is only beneficial to those herbivores, not for the carnivore that inevitably eats them.

 

[peaches08]

For cats with certain digestive issues that plain raw or home-cooked doesn't resolve, I can see where some things like rice or squash might help. But the average cat? I don't know. I've read different opinions on whether the cat will eat stomach and intestines of prey they've caught. Great question though!

 

[irinasak]

Thank you all for your replies.

I was under the wrong impression that B.A.R.F. is just the old name of raw, not that is a different kind of diet.

The 12% just seems so much, as it would also probably add up to more fiber and more carbs?

However, it is interesting that my guys always enjoy grass and olives. I know that usually cats eat grass to make themselves vomit, but my guys don't vomit. They just eat like small cows and I sometimes wonder if they lack something (vitamins) that they find in grass. And I've read about olives that they trigger a similar response as catnip does, and they are also fun to toss around, so I doubt that they eat it olives for their nutritional values... (I hope I didn't let the impression that I will serve my cats a salad for dinner, I am just very curious about everything nutrition related).

 

[burm guy]

Yes, this is the recipe I use. Kitties get their organic meat and their blended organic veggies and they seem to be doing very well on the regime. Dr Becker also advises supplying digestive enzymes - so mine get a broad-spectrum human-grade digestive enzyme along with their raw.

 Incidentally, the Dr Becker recipes are analyzed to meet AAFCO compliance, so that was one of the reasons why I started with her recipes.

The amount of veggies to add (if any) is a contentious point for raw feeders - so I hope you find the right fit for you and your cats.

 

[ldg]

Dr. Becker's "Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats" is outside, stored in a box that is under feet of snow. I posted the quote SOMEWHERE in this forum before, but can't find it.

But she clearly states in her book that the fruits and veggies are not only for nutritional purposes, and she also has a suggested range, not a "set" 12%. They are for fiber and as antioxidants for the sedentary lifestyle and exposure to toxins of our indoor-only cats.

 

[mschauer]

Dr. Becker's "Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats" is outside, stored in a box that is under feet of snow. I posted the quote SOMEWHERE in this forum before, but can't find it.

But she clearly states in her book that the fruits and veggies are not only for nutritional purposes, and she also has a suggested range, not a "set" 12%. They are for fiber and as antioxidants for the sedentary lifestyle and exposure to toxins of our indoor-only cats.

Here is a link to that post:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/262183/...pork-veal-protein-fat-balance/30#post_3383080

And the quotes (with some snipping):

From "Dr. Becker's Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats," (C) Natural Pet Productions 2011, third edition, first printing 2011.

P. 13

The balance of our ingredients in our program by volume for ... cats is about 88% meat, organs and bone, and 12% veggies by volume. This volume is slightly different from the ancestral balance...The extra fiber from veggies helps out the intestinal function of our sedentary pets and the high antioxidant levels found in vegetables and fruits are beneficial for detoxification processes, rebuilding and healing. Some animals do better with a little less or a little more in the way of veggies.

P. 16

Carbohydrate in the diet of dogs comes from the intestinal contents of small prey and from grazing and scavenging. Cats also get carbohydrates from the intestinal contents of prey and they graze on grasses.... Cats might average between 5% and 7% (these estimates are by volume, not on a DM basis). The calorie contribution of dietary carbohydrates is very low, but the vitamin, antioxidant, phytonutrient and fiber value is very high. We supply those carbohydrates with vitamin- and mineral-rich vegetables and fruits.

...We use a higher volume of carbohydrate than that of the ancestral diet in the form of vegetables and fruits to compensate for the sedentary lifestyle of our pets and to provide additional antioxidants to help the body deal with the inevitable toxins our pets encounter.

 

[furmonster mom]

I've been feeding frankenprey to my 4 cats and 1 dog for 7 1/2 years now.  Never included veggies. 

It's the one point that I disagree with Dr. Becker on, sorry.

 

[ldg]

Thank you mschauer!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[goingpostal]

 
I've been feeding frankenprey to my 4 cats and 1 dog for 7 1/2 years now.  Never included veggies. 

It's the one point that I disagree with Dr. Becker on, sorry.

I don't bother with veggies either, raw feeding 3 dogs, 2 ferrets and a cat for over three years.  There's nothing in veggies/fruit they can't get from meat and it's only adding unneeded carbs, fiber and sugar. 

 

[cprcheetah]

I do give my dog fruits and veggies but only because she has severe issues and I choose them and use them for their antioxidant properties.  My cats do not get veggies unless you count DeeJay swiping salad off my plate LOL, that girl LOVES romaine lettuce.