Beyond Poultry & Rabbit: TCFeline for Pork, Veal, & Protein/Fat Balance

[aprilprey]

Thanks!  And this is based on the breakdown of a typical mouse or other small animal?  Just wondering the underlying theory/source.

And - you DID hear those bits of "exploded head" hitting my laptop screen?

WAIT - can we use those bits of my exploded brain in the recipe?

Brain would be considered a secreting organ?  Don't know if my cats want whatever MY brain is excreting - hate to think of what else is in there after years of, ahem, "abuse".

Nothing says love like offering your cat bits of your own brain!

Thanks again.

 

[mschauer]

Thanks!  And this is based on the breakdown of a typical mouse or other small animal?  Just wondering the underlying theory/source.

Laurie and I had a discussion a while back about where the 80-10-5-5 guideline came from. I think we came to the conclusion that we really don't know. Some how raw feeders have come to believe that a diet based on that composition is appropriate for a cat. I actually don't use that method for formulating my foods any more but when I did I found that 10% bone was too high. My cats stool was very hard and dry. 7-8% worked better. 

And - you DID hear those bits of "exploded head" hitting my laptop screen?

WAIT - can we use those bits of  my  exploded brain  in the recipe?

Brain would be considered a secreting organ?  Don't know if my cats want whatever MY brain is excreting - hate to think of what else is in there after years of, ahem, "abuse".

Nothing says love like offering your cat bits of your own brain!

Oh, absolutely! Brain is very nutritious. I believe it is high in omega 3 fatty acids. Not a secreting organ though, sorry. But definitely worth scarping off the screen. Don't let it go to waste!

Thanks again.

You're welcome! 

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

You ladies certainly are entertaining this morning

(plus providing valuable information)

 

[ldg]

:lol3:

Actually, mschauer, I'm pretty sure now that the 80/10/5/5 "rule" comes from DOG prey model raw feeding (which became more ... "established" before feeding cats raw did).

And we HAVE the model of a mouse or rabbit (or their average), and it's nothing like 80/10/5/5. http://catcentric.org/wp-content/up...ge-of-some-Common-Prey-of-the-Cat-06-2002.pdf

The author of the chart doesn't have it up yet on her new website (http://www.abyssiniancats.info/info.php), but states that getting everything up is a work-in-progress...

And :doh3: , we've had this conversation before too, about the percentages. Yes, of course, the bone percent is of the TOTAL amount of food - including the bone that goes into the recipe. I keep forgetting that part.

 

[lcat4]

I don't want to be a party pooper here, just trying to follow the conversation. There seems to be a difference between Aprilprey reutilizing her broth bones into the cat food and Frappe specifically taking bones, pressure cooking them, pulverizing them, and putting them and ALL water into the cat food. The reason homemade broth is so nutritious is the minerals, marrow, and what-not from the bones have leached into the broth. When they take that delicious broth away, are there enough nutrients remaining for the cats? Were you planning on giving all the broth to the cats? Again, just trying to understand.

 

[aprilprey]

I don't want to be a party pooper here, just trying to follow the conversation. There seems to be a difference between Aprilprey reutilizing her broth bones into the cat food and Frappe specifically taking bones, pressure cooking them, pulverizing them, and putting them and ALL water into the cat food. The reason homemade broth is so nutritious is the minerals, marrow, and what-not from the bones have leached into the broth. When they take that delicious broth away, are there enough nutrients remaining for the cats? Were you planning on giving all the broth to the cats? Again, just trying to understand.

No worries - I have been the Poop in the Punch Bowl many times!  After mulling it over, reusing soup bones is probably not a good idea - I'd use fresh ones that were subtracted from an all poultry-thigh batch. Per Dr. Pierson's recipe - you remove 20-25% of bone when using all poultry thighs - I would just save those in the freezer.  I would use the water and put it into the recipe - I add 8 oz of liquid for each 3.25 lbs of meat and could even add a bit more. 

Or - go back to my original idea of using premix.

I ordered Dr. Karen Becker's book - I'll post any amazing insights I get from that source.

 

[ldg]

I'll be surprised if you get any amazing insights from Dr. Becker's book. I have it, it's good. :nod: But she believes part of a cat's diet should be fruits and veggies, because our cats are indoors. In fact, she contradicts herself. It bothered me so much, I wrote down the page numbers on the front of the book and highlighted the paragraphs. :lol3:

The one thing I found very valuable was her recipe for making a prey model raw diet balanced and complete as per AAFCO. With mschauer's help, I adapted it to the diet I feed my cats given the nutrients they get from the proteins and organs I have in rotation. I don't think using it "as is" would hurt them, but as they get all the copper and iron they need, I didn't include those in the supplement.

And LCat4, GREAT call. The use of old soup bones never... "clicked" in my head.

This is why I love TCS so much! What would we do without each other? :dk:

 

[aprilprey]

I'll be surprised if you get any amazing insights from Dr. Becker's book. I have it, it's good.

But she believes part of a cat's diet should be fruits and veggies, because our cats are indoors. In fact, she contradicts herself. It bothered me so much, I wrote down the page numbers on the front of the book and highlighted the paragraphs.

The one thing I found very valuable was her recipe for making a prey model raw diet balanced and complete as per AAFCO. With mschauer's help, I adapted it to the diet I feed my cats given the nutrients they get from the proteins and organs I have in rotation. I don't think using it "as is" would hurt them, but as they get all the copper and iron they need, I didn't include those in the supplement.

And LCat4, GREAT call. The use of old soup bones never... "clicked" in my head.

This is why I love TCS so much! What would we do without each other?

Thanks - I'll keep that in mind.  From my own experience, I am torn about the veggie thing.  One of the "gateway out of kibble" canned foods that Boo loves is a Weruva mackerel with pumpkin.  I am not 100% sure, but I could swear her elimination is easier, better when she eats that one - but bear in mind she's at 50/50 raw/canned.   So I would not bet money that is the reason - but she certainly is not displaying any ill effect from eating that one.

Sigh.  I wish Dr. Pierson had some more guidance on proteins outside of her poultry/rabbit recipe.  I know its crazy, but I still have a terrible insecurity about doing this "wrong".  Especially the bone/calcium thing.  When you are feeding ground - they have no choice but to eat the bone - gah, so worried about overdosing them on calcium.  I want to put the days of "My cat is sick due to food" behind me for good.

 

[mschauer]

I'll be surprised if you get any amazing insights from Dr. Becker's book. I have it, it's good.

But she believes part of a cat's diet should be fruits and veggies, because our cats are indoors. In fact, she contradicts herself. It bothered me so much, I wrote down the page numbers on the front of the book and highlighted the paragraphs.

Where do you think she contradicts herself? Does she really say that she really say she thinks fruits and veggies should be fed because cats are indoors? I recall the reason for including them was for the trace minerals.

 

[ldg]

OK, I might have summarized it TOO much. But it was anti-oxidants, primarily, as I recall. I'll go get the book, hang on...

 

[aprilprey]

I have to leave my computer to do a Master Gardener shift (hey, I can answer ALL your gardening questions...) but I await the exciting next installment of this thread!
 

 

[ldg]

From "Dr. Becker's Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats," (C) Natural Pet Productions 2011, third edition, first printing 2011.


p. 8

We find that the people feeding fresh food diets who drift the farthest from the balance of the ancestral diet are those who feed what is called "prey model." They are often feeding nothing but bony meats or chicken quarters. Because we feed only some parts of animals, other vital parts (spleen, pancreas, blood, brains, etc) are missing. We need to make substitutions for the parts we are unable to find at the grocery store. This is done through adding fatty acids, minerals, and other nutrients. We are all for the "prey model" but this approach must include all the components that provide essential balance, and we just don't have some of them available - so we need to substitute, not omit.

:nod: Good points, all.


P. 13

The balance of our ingredients in our program by volume for ... cats is about 88% meat, organs and bone, and 12% veggies by volume. This volume is slightly different from the ancestral balance...The extra fiber from veggies helps out the intestinal function of our sedentary pets and the high antioxidant levels found in vegetables and fruits are beneficial for detoxification processes, rebuilding and healing. Some animals do better with a little less or a little more in the way of veggies.

P. 16

Carbohydrate in the diet of dogs comes from the intestinal contents of small prey and from grazing and scavenging. Cats also get carbohydrates from the intestinal contents of prey and they graze on grasses.... Cats might average between 5% and 7% (these estimates are by volume, not on a DM basis). The calorie contribution of dietary carbohydrates is very low, but the vitamin, antioxidant, phytonutrient and fiber value is very high. We supply those carbohydrates with vitamin- and mineral-rich vegetables and fruits.

...We use a higher volume of carbohydrate than that of the ancestral diet in the form of vegetables and fruits to compensate for the sedentary lifestyle of our pets and to provide additional antioxidants to help the body deal with the inevitable toxins our pets encounter.

OK, so it's not necessarily a contradiction as written in the book: Unless it's the part where she says fruits and veggies are so important for they're nutrient content, and then says they're included at higher levels because our sedentary kitties need extra fiber and anti-oxidants because of the toxins they're exposed to - but that's not what I was referring to. It's her discussion of cats being obligate carnivores and how starches can mess with their systems. The discussion I had where I was confused about what she'd written in the book included her blog posts on the Mercola website. Sorry about that.

Anyway, I do agree with the basic theory: a model is a model, not the whole animal; we're not feeding natural small prey; and the way we raise our animals in factory farms does not necessarily provide all the nutrients our cats (and dogs) need due to the feed - and the depletion of our soil for the ingredients IN that feed. This is why I choose to supplement the basically PMR diet I feed.

Dr. Becker provides two supplement recipes: one for cats eating everything in their recipe rotations (including the organs, egg yolks, sardines, and fruit/veggie mix); one for cats that aren't eating everything, so the diet may be "deficient".

We know from mschauer's analysis of the diet I feed that we don't need the fruits and veggies for anything she includes in her supplement recommendations for "cats eating everything" in her suggested diet/rotation. I did adapt that version of Dr. Becker's supplement recipe (with mschauer's help, thank you!). What I excluded was the sodium, iron and folic acid (though I did choose to include a multi B-vitamin, nothing came up short in the analysis); and as manganese is included in the supplement recipe for cats eating everything, it would seem the fruits and veggies don't provide the manganese needed to meet AAFCO. So.... it would seem the fruits and veggies she recommends add fiber and anti-oxidants, because they don't seem to be needed for minerals in a diet that has a wider variety of proteins and organs than she includes in her recipes. Of course, she was going for simple, and none of her recipes include kidney, and she only uses chicken, turkey, and beef (and eggs and sardines).

 

[mschauer]

From "Dr. Becker's Real Food for Healthy Dogs and Cats," (C) Natural Pet Productions 2011, third edition, first printing 2011.

p. 8

We find that the people feeding fresh food diets who drift the farthest from the balance of the ancestral diet are those who feed what is called "prey model." They are often feeding nothing but bony meats or chicken quarters. Because we feed only some parts of animals, other vital parts (spleen, pancreas, blood, brains, etc) are missing. We need to make substitutions for the parts we are unable to find at the grocery store. This is done through adding fatty acids, minerals, and other nutrients. We are all for the "prey model" but this approach must include all the components that provide essential balance, and we just don't have some of them available - so we need to substitute, not omit.

Good points, all.

Yup, that's one of my objections to the "prey model". Hopefully most who feed that model know better than to feed *just* bony meats or chicken quarters though.

OK, so it's not necessarily a contradiction as written in the book: Unless it's the part where she says fruits and veggies are so important for they're nutrient content, and then says they're included at higher levels because our sedentary kitties need extra fiber and anti-oxidants because of the toxins they're exposed to - but that's not what I was referring to.
 

Yeah, I don't see that as a contradiction. She just making two separate points about the reason for including them. 

Thanks for the clarification. I don't always agree with, or maybe just don't understand, what she says but she does always seem to have solid reasons for what she says.

 

[aprilprey]

I think the sedentary thing is very important - much more so than the nutrition issue (like humans, we can simply supplement the diet).  Even a well exercised indoor cat is probably way more sedentary than a wild feline that must hunt constantly or starve.  I say this as my 1 yr old Dexter is napping; no way could he sleep as much as he does if I did not dole out the food 2x a day.  More importantly - its much much tougher for us to duplicate that lifestyle; tougher than adding some missing vitamins and minerals.
 

At the risk of anthropomorphizing - I think we humans would have FAR less health problems if we moved as much as our ancestors did.  Probably the same for cats as well.  I strongly believe that if we lived like the "hunter-gatherers on the move" that we used to be - covering at least 6 miles a day on foot - many of our common health issues (obesity, chronic mild back pain) would diminish.  I can't put it into words - I am sure there is a PhD out there that can - there is something about the regular, rhythmic movement of walking that vastly improves one's health.  Geez, maybe I should worry about my OWN health as much as my cat's (my cholesterol is through the roof!)

Hmmm...Boo would sleep ALL DAY on The Boyfriend's lap if given the choice.  Since we brought Dexter into the house 6 weeks ago, she has increased her activity level considerably: nothing like having a "teenager" in the house pestering her to play stalk and chase.  Maybe that has as much to do with her constipation issues resolving as much as the change in diet.

Great food for thought.  Opinions?  Let's hear 'em.

 

[furmonster mom]

The problem I have with using the argument that prey eat grass, therefore we should include fruits/veggies in our cat's diets is this:  the prey has predigested their food (grass/veggies/grains), whereas we are not predigesting those things before adding it to our cats meals (at least.. I hope not!  eeeewww). 

Unlike dogs, cats do not have enough of the necessary enzymes to break down cellulose based plant matter, therefore, how can we say they are actually getting any nutritional value from them when we add them to the diet?  You could say that they serve the purpose of fiber, but, in my opinion, the argument for nutritional value falls flat.

As for living a sedentary lifestyle, smaller meals would counteract that.  If the recipe/meals are nutritionally complete, then a small amount will go a long way for the sedentary body.  It's only if the meals are unbalanced that smaller amounts would pose a problem.

 

[ldg]

Oh we know more exercise is healthy for everyone - dogs, cats, people... no doubt about it. I would love to have a fenced yard so my cats could run, jump and climb more than they're able to. I often feel guilty about having 8 of them in an RV. But they're all feral rescues, and I console myself thinking that they're better off here than dead (and other than the first two, they all had health issues. And the first one, Lazlo, has beaten cancer with our help - though he might not have gotten it but for us. Drive myself in circles with that one). Outdoors we have 11 feral cats in a colony we see regularly (almost daily) - four of them live near the RV and are friendly to us now: outdoor pets, really. The outdoor cats are all far more muscular than the indoor cats, no two ways around it. And even though Baloo probably sleeps as much as the indoor kitties, the exercise he does get is much more of a workout than my kitties chasing feathers or mice on a wand.

Anyway, given that they ARE inside with us, I think the nutritional aspect of fresh food is incredibly important. Just like it is for people. I expect that kittens brought up on raw will not have the same issues with the "sedentary lifestyle" because no damage was already done to their GI systems with a species-inappropriate diet. Perhaps anti-oxidants because of exposure to toxins is a good idea... but what are feral cats exposed to now? In the city? Suburbs? Chemical lawns, mosquito fogging, etc. etc. etc. I think when we transition older kitties, that have already developed problems because of species-inappropriate diets - THEY may need extra fiber - but that's not because of THEIR sedentary lifestyle, IMO, that's because of US not learning about nutrition, or our wanting convenience, or our being misinformed by our vets... (I was going to say because of our sedentary lifestyle LOL, but for too many of us, the issue was not doing our own research, not because we're lazy about learning). But you get my point, I think.

And does the ancestral diet represent optimal? Ideal? Not necessarily for our cats - indoor pets or outdoor ferals - ARE exposed to toxins that their ancestors weren't. We're trying to improve quality of life and length of life - yet most of us want to do it within a species-appropriate manner, if possible. I think there's an important distinction between "ancestral diet" and "species appropriate" in relation to "optimal."

But what are appropriate antioxidants for cats? I'd rather use vitamin E, sardines, and ubiquinol (the active form of CoQ10) than watermelon and sweet potato or whatever it is that she recommends. :dk:

 

[aprilprey]

As for living a sedentary lifestyle, smaller meals would counteract that. 

VERY interesting point - Boo eats several tiny meals throughout the day.  Kind of frustrating because Dexter eats HIS food in about 5 minutes!  We have to constantly cover/uncover Boo's food so Dexter doesn't gobble it down.  Doable these days since we are both home. If you have ever read Pamela Merritt's "Way of Cats" blog - she describes 3 cat personalities: Alpha, Beta and Gamma. Boo is all Alpha...constantly learning how to manipulate her environment like.  We joke that we should develop some kind of kitty combination lock that Boo can manipulate to lock/unlock her food!  Dexter doesn't have the brains to figure such things out - he utterly failed the "get the treats out of the toy" test!  Boo figured it out in 30 seconds.  Smart kitty.

BTW: her canned/raw mix has been out as long as 12 hours...with no ill effect that I can see.  We are in the PacficNW - summers are not terribly hot. She just gets better and better - we've finally gotten to where I wanted her on the Bristol Stool Chart!!!  My god, its all I can do to to restrain myself from doing a Kitty Poop Photo Journal!

Wish us luck - we are going to triple the next batch and grind through 9 lbs of poultry thighs.  Manually.  Whew...tires me out to think of it!