Will Cats Get More Feral?

[ashekitty]

Hey guys!
Okay hear me out. If we continue spaying our own pet cats and nice outdoor strays and therefore the population having the most kittens are the more aggressive/people avoiding feral cats, will the cat population as a whole become more aggressive or feral? Say in 50 years will cats as a whole be more aggressive? Please tell me if I am overlooking anything. Also I am not saying you shouldn't spay your cats, please spay your cats everybody.

 

[Kieka]

If I am understanding what you are asking, I think you have a basic misunderstanding of what a feral cat is. A feral cat is one who had no contact (or in some cases little positive contact) with humans and is not socialized to humans. Feral cats avoid humans because we are large, loud and scary. Not because the cats themselves are mean and nasty, but because they don't know humans can be nice. Anyone who knows ferals will tell you some ferals cannot be socialized no matter how much you try. Again, not because the cat is mean but because the cat has avoided humans for so long and/or had bad experiences so that fear of humans is ingrained. Remember, hissing is not "I'm mean", hissing is "leave me alone, I am scared of this situation. You don't want to mess with me or I will hurt you."

Starting around 6-8 weeks old a Mom cat teaches her kittens how to survive in the world. For feral cats this includes how to survive by avoiding humans. A feral kitten under 8 weeks who is homed and socialized can make a wonderful house cat. Even older kittens can be socialized with time and patience. My girl was feral until she was 3/4 months old and learned to love at least our family. She has so-called feral tendencies but that is her being a little more skittish and a little more cautious with humans outside our family. But my girl will happily fall asleep on my lap and wants to be petted pretty much all the time. This same cat was scared and hissy for the first several weeks while she was socialized and learned humans aren't bad to unlearn those lessons her mom taught her. There is a point of no return for most ferals but luckily my girl wasn't there yet.

Rescues and feral colony caretakers will often take kittens from feral mom's when they are 6 weeks old so they don't learn fear of humans. Many former feral kittens make wonderful pets. So no, if we spay and neuter the friendlier cats it won't lead to a population of angry cats breeding. Because it isn't anger, it's fear and time and patience can overcome fear if done right. Plus many of the dedicated TNR people are fixing whatever cat they can trap. So it isn't just the nice ones who get fixed. I know one person who TNRs and recently caught 40 cats in a neighborhood and only two were friendly enough to find homes for. Even if your basic idea of it being personality that is hereditary, it isn't just the nice ones getting TNRd.

 

[ashekitty]

If I am understanding what you are asking, I think you have a basic misunderstanding of what a feral cat is. A feral cat is one who had no contact (or in some cases little positive contact) with humans and is not socialized to humans. Feral cats avoid humans because we are large, loud and scary. Not because the cats themselves are mean and nasty, but because they don't know humans can be nice. Anyone who knows ferals will tell you some ferals cannot be socialized no matter how much you try. Again, not because the cat is mean but because the cat has avoided humans for so long and/or had bad experiences so that fear of humans is ingrained. Remember, hissing is not "I'm mean", hissing is "leave me alone, I am scared of this situation. You don't want to mess with me or I will hurt you."

Starting around 6-8 weeks old a Mom cat teaches her kittens how to survive in the world. For feral cats this includes how to survive by avoiding humans. A feral kitten under 8 weeks who is homed and socialized can make a wonderful house cat. Even older kittens can be socialized with time and patience. My girl was feral until she was 3/4 months old and learned to love at least our family. She has so-called feral tendencies but that is her being a little more skittish and a little more cautious with humans outside our family. But my girl will happily fall asleep on my lap and wants to be petted pretty much all the time. This same cat was scared and hissy for the first several weeks while she was socialized and learned humans aren't bad to unlearn those lessons her mom taught her. There is a point of no return for most ferals but luckily my girl wasn't there yet.

Rescues and feral colony caretakers will often take kittens from feral mom's when they are 6 weeks old so they don't learn fear of humans. Many former feral kittens make wonderful pets. So no, if we spay and neuter the friendlier cats it won't lead to a population of angry cats breeding. Because it isn't anger, it's fear and time and patience can overcome fear if done right. Plus many of the dedicated TNR people are fixing whatever cat they can trap. So it isn't just the nice ones who get fixed. I know one person who TNRs and recently caught 40 cats in a neighborhood and only two were friendly enough to find homes for. Even if your basic idea of it being personality that is hereditary, it isn't just the nice ones getting TNRd.

I never thought of it like this, thanks for the information. Plus cats aren’t genetically domesticated anyway for the most part so genetics don’t play as much into their temperament as they do for most animals that become pets.

That being said, I’ve heard from people that work in TNR say that a kitten born to a feral cat of one generation is usually less fearful of humans than a kitten born to a feral of five generations, even if they are taken at the same time very young. Is this just a coincidence? Or does it not really matter to the cat population overall because they rarely get to five generations because they are socialized or TNRd?

And also, does anyone know statistically which populations of cats have the most kittens? (Strays, ferals, unspayed pets?)

 

[Kieka]

That being said, I’ve heard from people that work in TNR say that a kitten born to a feral cat of one generation is usually less fearful of humans than a kitten born to a feral of five generations, even if they are taken at the same time very young. Is this just a coincidence? Or does it not really matter to the cat population overall because they rarely get to five generations because they are socialized or TNRd?

Technically, I believe a one generation feral is a stray, or socialized cat that lost it's home. A kitten from a stray cat wouldn't have as much learned fear of humans because Mom wouldn't. A fifth generation feral cat would likely be in a situation where they have less human contact in general and the fear of humans would be started possibly younger. I don't think it's a hereditary thing but more so the situation would lend itself toward even less human contact and more survival instinct. You also would likely be having more inbreeding at that point so some of it could be genetic in the sense of starting to show problems related to inbreeding. But that's all a guess on my part of course.

I also wouldn't say they rarely get to five generations. My girl came from a hoarding situation/feral colony where a neighbor fed cats because she liked kittens. There were three to four litters a year for several years (4-6 years I want to say) before my girl was born; and those are just the ones I saw who made their way to the front yard. The landlord finally stepped in at that point because of the dead kittens in the trash around the property (very sad, but shows the truth of uncontrolled populations). In that case we are talking probably closer to seven or maybe ten generations since typically the females had their first litter at around 6 months since the weather is good. Unfortunately, the neighbor forbid anyone from spaying the cats and there aren't any TNR programs in my area (I did look). While TNR is great it isn't everywhere and not everyone does it. I'd say there are many areas where the street cats are several generations past five.

Statistically who has more? I don't think there is a good statistic out there. Cats are incredibly fertile as a general rule and will have litters as long as the weather is decent. In warmer areas that can be year round while cooler areas just the spring/summer. My guess would be that most areas are leaning towards spay/neuter for adopted pets and most vets encourage it. Since strays are former pets and the spay/neuter message is strong I would suspect strays have the least along with house pets. Even unspayed pets would have fewer since in most cases they aren't allowed to free roam or the owner gets rid of them making them part of the stray grouping. Ferals would just have to be the largest volume since they aren't altered unless caught and not every area does TNR. Ferals would also have the highest death rate. Out of a conservative estimate of 100 kittens I saw at the neighbors house, my girl is the only one that I know lived past two years old. Many feral born kittens will die from predators, disease, injury or even the environment. My girls litter mates all died in a heat wave two days after she joined our house.

Getting a real statistic is impossible though. We know nearly 2,300 cats will be killed every day in shelters. But even that knowledge is general since some shelters don't record neonatals or cats who die before they make it into the shelter (boxes of kittens left on doorsteps, like my mom's cat was). Trying to record where cats are born and which is the biggest population is an even bigger challenge because there isn't a way to estimate.

 

[ashekitty]

Technically, I believe a one generation feral is a stray, or socialized cat that lost it's home. A kitten from a stray cat wouldn't have as much learned fear of humans because Mom wouldn't. A fifth generation feral cat would likely be in a situation where they have less human contact in general and the fear of humans would be started possibly younger. I don't think it's a hereditary thing but more so the situation would lend itself toward even less human contact and more survival instinct. You also would likely be having more inbreeding at that point so some of it could be genetic in the sense of starting to show problems related to inbreeding. But that's all a guess on my part of course.

I also wouldn't say they rarely get to five generations. My girl came from a hoarding situation/feral colony where a neighbor fed cats because she liked kittens. There were three to four litters a year for several years (4-6 years I want to say) before my girl was born; and those are just the ones I saw who made their way to the front yard. The landlord finally stepped in at that point because of the dead kittens in the trash around the property (very sad, but shows the truth of uncontrolled populations). In that case we are talking probably closer to seven or maybe ten generations since typically the females had their first litter at around 6 months since the weather is good. Unfortunately, the neighbor forbid anyone from spaying the cats and there aren't any TNR programs in my area (I did look). While TNR is great it isn't everywhere and not everyone does it. I'd say there are many areas where the street cats are several generations past five.

Statistically who has more? I don't think there is a good statistic out there. Cats are incredibly fertile as a general rule and will have litters as long as the weather is decent. In warmer areas that can be year round while cooler areas just the spring/summer. My guess would be that most areas are leaning towards spay/neuter for adopted pets and most vets encourage it. Since strays are former pets and the spay/neuter message is strong I would suspect strays have the least along with house pets. Even unspayed pets would have fewer since in most cases they aren't allowed to free roam or the owner gets rid of them making them part of the stray grouping. Ferals would just have to be the largest volume since they aren't altered unless caught and not every area does TNR.

Again, thanks for the valuable information. So you think that as long as the kitten is taken young enough, no matter how many generations far removed from human contact, they can be friendly towards humans?

Of course this is all theoretical, but if there was a colony of cats that was unchecked for let’s say 10 or 15 years or even more, isn’t there a chance that those kittens would be unable to be raised as house cats? Or can it not happen that fast?

I’m just thinking, if we somehow all got amazing at spaying our pets and strays, and the only cats not spayed were the ferals that are harder to trap and spay, could cat populations from that point forward theoretically start to avoid humans all together? Since the “friendly” ones were made pets and spayed, and the “fearful” ones weren’t made pets and had more kittens? Or maybe I am attributing too much to genetics, and and all feral kittens can be made friendly.

Then again, I don’t think cat lovers would let it get to that point, and probably would have intervened before then.

Thanks for having this strange and unlikely theoretical conversation with me, I know we are so far from this point anyway. I was just randomly thinking about this today so I had to ask!

 

[Kieka]

Since hybrid cats who are part domestic and part wild cat and even fully wild cats can live in homes (albeit with some concessions on both sides); I don't think a cat born in an isolated feral colony would have any more trouble adjusting to living with humans then one born to a first generation feral. Cats self domesticated themselves and will revert fairly easily to life without humans. Which isn't to say they will all survive long lives but they will adapt for the most part. That goes both ways of cats seeing the benefit of humans and as long as the fear isn't too engrained they should go back to living with humans too. The one thing about socialized ferals is they usually bond closest with whomever socializes them. Which is similar to wild animals who live in captivity.

I think it would take several hundred generations for cats to revert to an undomestic state instead of just an unsocialized one. Which, in my opinion, has to do mostly with them being survivors and self domesticating. They developed not so much to be with humans but to use humans. Domesticating was just a happy side effect of them getting closer to humans and us eventually seeing a benefit to having them around. Cats as house pets is only a recent change in human history.

Theoretically, if the cat population got down to just purebred and ferals there is a chance they'd diverge in terms of behavior. But it comes back to the self domesticated again. Cats thousands of years ago saw a benefit in being near humans. They are niche abush hunters and there is a reason their are more wild cat species then wild dog species. They spent more and more time around humans over the centuries of their own choice. Feral cats wouldn't snub that ancestry just because they don't interact with humans directly. They'd stay close enough that the curious and the adventurous ones would get closer and history would repeat itself. Evolution moves forward not backwards, there is no benefit to them going more wild because the general population does better when humans draw more prey.

 

[ashekitty]

Since hybrid cats who are part domestic and part wild cat and even fully wild cats can live in homes (albeit with some concessions on both sides); I don't think a cat born in an isolated feral colony would have any more trouble adjusting to living with humans then one born to a first generation feral. Cats self domesticated themselves and will revert fairly easily to life without humans. Which isn't to say they will all survive long lives but they will adapt for the most part. That goes both ways of cats seeing the benefit of humans and as long as the fear isn't too engrained they should go back to living with humans too. The one thing about socialized ferals is they usually bond closest with whomever socializes them. Which is similar to wild animals who live in captivity.

I think it would take several hundred generations for cats to revert to an undomestic state instead of just an unsocialized one. Which, in my opinion, has to do mostly with them being survivors and self domesticating. They developed not so much to be with humans but to use humans. Domesticating was just a happy side effect of them getting closer to humans and us eventually seeing a benefit to having them around. Cats as house pets is only a recent change in human history.

Theoretically, if the cat population got down to just purebred and ferals there is a chance they'd diverge in terms of behavior. But it comes back to the self domesticated again. Cats thousands of years ago saw a benefit in being near humans. They are niche abush hunters and there is a reason their are more wild cat species then wild dog species. They spent more and more time around humans over the centuries of their own choice. Feral cats wouldn't snub that ancestry just because they don't interact with humans directly. They'd stay close enough that the curious and the adventurous ones would get closer and history would repeat itself. Evolution moves forward not backwards, there is no benefit to them going more wild because the general population does better when humans draw more prey.

That makes a lot of sense, thanks! I appreciate your well thought out answers!

 

[Willowy]

Cats aren't really fully domesticated---as mentioned, they self-domesticated on their own terms. I suppose a Persian is fully domesticated, but not your average tabby. So it really all comes down to their socialization at a young age.

And even a fully wild animal, if taken from its mother young enough and hand-raised, can be a tame pet (though they will still have their natural behaviors which may not be conducive to living with humans, depending on the species).

 

[lutece]

Plus cats aren’t genetically domesticated anyway for the most part so genetics don’t play as much into their temperament as they do for most animals that become pets.

I don't know what you mean by not "genetically domesticated"? Yes, of course domestic cats are domesticated. Cats have been domesticated for many thousands of years. There is a huge difference in temperament between a domestic cat and any species of wild cat (even if you take that wild baby away from its mother and hand-raise it), and this is because of genetics.

If humans spent the next thousand years rejecting the companionship of cats and driving them away from human settlements, it's certainly possible that cats would evolve to become more wild in temperament. However, I think it would take many more generations than just a few.

Enjoy this video about cat domestication:
Cat domestication: From farms to sofas

 

[marmoset]

My understanding is that cats are in the process of domestication. They are behind dogs in terms of hundreds of years. I'm certain they will get there. The general consensus or at least what we always hear is that cats live just fine without people.

I think any population of cats regardless of previous exposure to humans will be more likely to adapt to human interaction in 50 years though it will be so slight as to be barely noticeable by the average person.

Some of my research has suggested that the temperament of the father is genetically carried on to the next generation including how extroverted with humans (for lack of better terms). So when a truly feral mother has a litter of kittens- yes, some of whether the kittens will be easy to socialize will be effected by her own behavior towards humans but the genetics of the father plays perhaps even a bigger role.

So when does environment switch those genes towards being human-seeking instead of human avoidant? This is just not something that is researched.
Cats in general have had far less research than dogs so we just don't know yet. I have yet to see any article written about cats in a journal with a decent amount of subjects so far there's just not enough money in cats

It's always possible to socialize very young kittens. I don't see that ever changing. It's harder at 16 weeks than 8 weeks etc and much harder at 12 months but ime it's all possible with time and patience and degrees of expectation irregardless if the great great grandma was feral or if it was a mother whose mother was an escapee house pet. That's my opinion based on my experience but scientifically it is anecdotal and of very little to no value.

I think at the crux of your question though is human behavior. Are we becoming more community cat-friendly as a culture? Are there more people feeding and vetting ferals through TnR now than before? I think now more than ever our own behavior will effect domestication.

I'd put my money on cats becoming more domesticated over time. They are in the process. I can't say if it's all learned behavior (though cats are just out of this world when it comes to learning behavior through observation) or genetic but I feel the shift will be towards cohabitation over time.

 

[lutece]

My understanding is that cats are in the process of domestication. They are behind dogs in terms of hundreds of years. I'm certain they will get there. The general consensus or at least what we always hear is that cats live just fine without people.

Feral dogs and horses also survive just fine without people, and aren't automatically tame and friendly. All of these animals are domesticated, but they require socialization in order to be friendly with humans.

 

[Willowy]

I do think that the parents' temperaments are passed down to the kittens, to some extent. But if the parent cats aren't socialized to humans, how can we know their base temperament? If they had been socialized, maybe they'd be mushy lap cats or maybe they'd be more independent, no way to know. I don't think that a parent cat being feral means that parent cat has the kind of base temperament that would make them unsuitable as a housecat; it's just the lot they drew in life.

 

[ashekitty]

Interesting perspectives! Thanks everyone for the information.

Okay, what about the other end of the spectrum? Do you think cats will ever become as domesticated as dogs? Why or why not?

 

[Willowy]

Haha, well, there's such a spectrum with dogs that it's hard to say. One one hand you've got Golden Retrievers, basically genetically engineered to be the perfect pet for active families. On the other hand you have Shiba Inu or Siberian Huskies, who think you're OK, but maybe running away would be more fun.

Unsocialized dogs can also become feral, although this is now fairly uncommon in most parts of the US due to animal control efforts.

So! I don't know. Maybe cats are just as domesticated as dogs. They're just different animals, made to do different things. Maybe a Persian is the cat equivalent of a Golden Retriever, and domestics are like the more primitive breeds of dogs.

 

[ashekitty]

I also feel like since people aren’t as into specific cat breeds as people are into specific dog breeds, they won’t become as domesticated anytime soon and get the health problems that come with breeding.

 

[Kieka]

Domesticated : adapted over time (as by selective breeding) from a wild or natural state to life in close association with and to the benefit of humans.

Dogs are more domesticated, and more inbred, because they are working animals. They were bred for very specific tasks and their form changes drastically to achieve those tasks. Since they've been bred for so long and during times when people didn't understand inbreeding the health problems are the direct result of that inbreeding.

In contrast, cats self domesticated by staying closer to humans for food. Since they are already the ideal hunters for small prey there was no human interference. While there have been some breeds Selectively bred to form purebred, most are refinements of naturally occurring physical features. Many of them have been developed sine understanding inbreeding has it dangers. While purebred cats do have some health concerns it isn't to the same degree you find in dogs by and large.

All that said, domestication degrees does not equate to inbred problems. They are related in the sense that humans decide they know better then nature and cause problems. But since we now know the problems and have the tools to DNA test I don't think further domestication in cats will really lead to a drastic change in health concerns. I believe that if cats become more domesticated it will be purely behavioral.

 

[BertyRiley]

I actually read a book about the first topic - if you are interested it's called "Cat Sense" by John Bradshaw. And he does state that there is an inadvertent harm to the species by "blanket neutering" human friendly pets causing only more feral and un-tamable pets to be available. Leading to humans abusing, neglecting, and rejecting even more cats because they are more wild. Interesting read. He suggested a more global collaboration between cat advocates and breeders to help make this change because we are actually doing more harm than good thinking we are doing good. This was just one man's opinion, but to me it made sense.

 

[ashekitty]

I actually read a book about the first topic - if you are interested it's called "Cat Sense" by John Bradshaw. And he does state that there is an inadvertent harm to the species by "blanket neutering" human friendly pets causing only more feral and un-tamable pets to be available. Leading to humans abusing, neglecting, and rejecting even more cats because they are more wild. Interesting read. He suggested a more global collaboration between cat advocates and breeders to help make this change because we are actually doing more harm than good thinking we are doing good. This was just one man's opinion, but to me it made sense.

Interesting... If what other people on this thread are saying about how feral cats and kittens are just unsocialized and not genetically different than strays or house cats, this doesn’t seem like it would check out. Different perspectives I guess.

 

[Willowy]

I've heard that concern with dogs, and I think there's probably something to that. I don't think it holds water with cats. I'd like to see his reasoning though.

 

[lutece]

The two perspectives are not completely incompatible.

Cats do vary in their genetically determined temperament. Breeders who pay attention to the temperament of their breeding cats can definitely influence temperament in their bloodlines. Given the same socialization, some cats are more friendly, gentle, and easy for humans to handle. Let's call this group of genetic traits "innate sociability" for the sake of argument.

Most feral cats at this time are simply unsocialized; their "innate sociability" is similar to socialized house cats, although this is not obvious because they are feral. At this time, I don't think there is selection pressure in the feral cat population that would reward cats with lower innate sociability. In fact I think it may be the opposite, at this time. Relatively friendly ferals are probably more likely to reproduce successfully than completely unfriendly ferals, if they are more comfortable spending time near humans, scavenging food or getting fed. Most ferals aren't spayed or neutered at this time.

It's possible that if TNR were to become extremely successful (MUCH more successful than it is today), less friendly ferals that don't go near humans would be more likely to reproduce successfully than relatively friendly ferals living near humans. It's possible this would lead to some selection pressure favoring feral cats with lower "innate sociability." However, I think it would take a very long time and many, many generations for this to make a significant difference... on the order of hundreds, if not thousands of generations.