What Might Be In The Mix?

[Dacatchair]

Last April I adopted a 9 week old kitten who is now 6 months old. My kitten, who I named Moggie was not advertised as any particular breed and was only $25, so I did not, at the time, think to ask a lot of questions. But I am now curious. When I was arranging to go and pick him up I was told his Mom is an F7 Savannah who got out and had kittens with a cat who was not the intended stud. They thought the Dad might be a Bengal cross who had a white paw. (Other kittens in the litter had white patches) After I got him, being curious about my kittens ancestry I figured out the place I got him consistently produces all color point kittens, said to be Snow Savannahs, and as 2 color point cats cannot produce non color point kittens I guess it was obvious Moggies dad was not the intended color point stud.

There is a lot of people claiming cats are breeds they are not, and as I have no idea if the person I got Moggie from has registered pedigrees for their cats, and they have not been responsive to my request to know more about Moggies Mom, it is entirely possible my kitten is a spotted DSH tabby with no wild genes at all. But I do I notice he has some traits that seem consistent with the claim his Mom is a late generation Savannah.

My kitten is long and lanky. I got the picture of him stretched yesterday.

He also has quite pronounced Oceli or banding on his ears and long legs

And his neck also works like an accordion and goes up at right angles from his body when there is something he wants to see.

and

And he has some spots and some interesting shoulder markings but whether or not they are clearly defined seems to depend a lot on the lighting and angle.

I took a video of my kitten when he caught his first rat. (he still seems to enjoy watching this) And for some reason the light and angle was perfect to show his markings that are often muddied by ticking. What I noticed is the video caught how his spots do tend to flow in a fan shaped pattern of lines starting around his shoulders flowing down and across his body. I think maybe this may be a trait that only comes from Serval genes but I am not sure and am curious if DSH spotted tabbies also sometimes have their spots in these lines?
I don't want to upset anyone with a video of my cat playing with a thoroughly deceased rat, (cats are an important part of rat control here) so I have broken the link to the slow motion video and if people want to see it they can copy and paste the link repairing the break.

htt ps://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByDQ9QuQRArsbzZVeDdsY090SXM/view?usp=sharing

And my kitten is a very confident, outgoing, active, curious,cooperative but headstrong when he wants his own way and social little guy that in some ways is like a dog with catitude.

So... I know most or maybe all the traits I see that might be from a Serval / Savannah could also come from other sources. But I am curious if DSH cats with no hybridization with wild genes have these types of spots and patterns sometimes, and if any of these traits may be exclusive to a genetic contribution from a Savannah or Bengal with a more recent wild ancestor? I also wonder if anyone can spot traits that likely come from other breeds? I wonder about the hump in my kittens back and if that comes from somewhere? And as his Mom was probably color point I guess there would be Siamese or Burmese somewhere back there? Both Savannahs and Bengal have been out crossed with a lot of more domestic breeds and I am also interested in that. And then there is his Dad being a complete unknown. Any guesses about who he may have been would be very much appreciated! (My first guess is he is probably an ordinary DSH tabby and maybe feral as most people around here neuter their pet cats) I have noticed one of my kittens back paw sometimes has a slightly lighter color at the very tips of his toes sort of like a Birman, but I am not sure if Birman mits can be nuanced or if they are all or nothing.

Thanks for being willing to engage with my curiosity!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

But I am curious if DSH cats with no hybridization with wild genes have these types of spots and patterns

Only if their recent ancestry includes Egyptian Maus or Ocicats.

That aside, a DNA marker examination would tell you precisely which non-domestic secondary genetics are at work here. The markers for Bengals (because of the Asian Leopard Cat heritage) and for Savannahs (owed to their Serval ancestry) are easy to interpret.
.

 

[Dacatchair]

Thanks, looking at the DNA is an interesting possibility! I did not know they could see a small serval influence in a cats DNA. Would you know who does these types of tests?

I was considering getting my kittens colorpoint genes tested to see if he might carry a Sepia point CBCB version of this gene, as the parent cats look like they may be CSCB carriers, and I thought maybe the dad could be his dad, and the CBCB combination had maybe produced a dark sepia point kitten, but after thinking about it decided it seems extremely unlikely as all the kittens usually produced are snows and his 3 siblings were also dark spotted tabby or black and white - 2 had white spots. of course a litter of kittens can have more than 1 dad!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

Thanks, looking at the DNA is an interesting possibility! I did not know they could see a small serval influence in a cats DNA. Would you know who does these types of tests?

Absolutely - The University of California Veterinary School (Davis). They have price charts online, they provide the swab package and return shipping envelopes, so it's a snap. The original project was set up by Dr. Leslie Lyons. The Marker examination begins at the Landrace, and goes right down to subatomic resolution for atypical proteins. For Savannah lineage, they can almost tell you the original Serval's favourite television show.
.

 

[Dacatchair]

I just checked out their website and it says this
Cat Ancestry - FAQ
"Cat Ancestry was developed using genetic markers specific for the domestic cat only. These tests are not intended to compare to other felids, such as bobcats, lynx or wildcat. The accuracy of Cat Ancestry for hybrid breeds such as Savannahs and Chaussies is unknown."
and
"Although Cat Ancestry contains Bengals in its database, the genetic markers were developed from the domestic cat only. Bengals will match to the Bengal breed or potentially to the domestic breed most recently used, such as Abyssinian or Egyptian Mau. Sufficient DNA samples have not been available from Leopard Cats to develop markers that would assist with percentage of Leopard Cat contribution."

It sounds like it really only shows which geographic region of 4 your cats genes mostly come from... I guess this might be a fun thing to have done, but I think the results of the genetic markers I can actually see are just as reliable. Maybe more so!

 

[1CatOverTheLine]

I just checked out their website and it says this
Cat Ancestry - FAQ
"Cat Ancestry was developed using genetic markers specific for the domestic cat only. These tests are not intended to compare to other felids, such as bobcats, lynx or wildcat. The accuracy of Cat Ancestry for hybrid breeds such as Savannahs and Chaussies is unknown."
and
"Although Cat Ancestry contains Bengals in its database, the genetic markers were developed from the domestic cat only. Bengals will match to the Bengal breed or potentially to the domestic breed most recently used, such as Abyssinian or Egyptian Mau. Sufficient DNA samples have not been available from Leopard Cats to develop markers that would assist with percentage of Leopard Cat contribution."

It sounds like it really only shows which geographic region of 4 your cats genes mostly come from... I guess this might be a fun thing to have done, but I think the results of the genetic markers I can actually see are just as reliable. Maybe more so!

They know more (and will share more) than they let on regarding hybrids - but you're right about seeing being believing - and you've had confirmation via his looks by some of TCS' most experienced cat spotters - Abyeb, Stefan and Alejandra. Genetics aside, wow, is he a beautiful cat!
.
.

 

[Dacatchair]

Thanks 1catovertheline. I agree he is beautiful, and has this odd way of changing in different light. I feel really lucky to have been able to adopt him and I am totally enjoying his youth and also excited to see what sort of cat he will grow into. His markings did get a lot more distinct as he grew bigger and the space between them spread out. It will be interesting to see if he stays long and lithe or if he fills out substantially as he matures!

 

[Dacatchair]

A short video showing my kitten in motion without a dead rat. I love how graceful he is, how he moves almost like a kangaroo sometimes. But I wonder why it is in some light and from some angles he has striking pronounced black spots on a silvery grey blue background, and in other light and from other angles he is more beige and the spots much more random, blurred and much less obvious? I am curious what is it in a cats fur that does this? He seems to have a fuzzy beige undercoat and then in the area between the spots, the hairs that overlay this undercoat, are strongly ticked with a wide band that looks white ending in black tips, the lighter band is what looks silvery grey in some lights. The spots seem to be all black and not so obviously ticked but I think they gradually change to the beige undercoat if I dig into them and get closer to the skin. Maybe... It is a bit hard to be sure? Do most spotted cats have ticking that causes this changeability or is this something inherited more from a mackerel tabby?

 

[StefanZ]

I think your boys looks are consistent with the story. Although the DNA test is of course the best way to know.
As I understand it, the savannah spots are somewhat different from the domestic tabbys spots. The lines go more alongside. So I understand you saw the spots "flowing". I saw a scheme for it, showing it in detalil.

The ticking doensnt need to come from tabby as such. Although some tabbies has it. I suspect it comes sooner from daddy...

What is the pattern of the presumed bengal daddy? My guess would be marbled, because marbled / classic is non-dominant to the other tabby patterns...

 

[Dacatchair]

Thanks for your input Stefanz!

I was only told they thought my Kittens Dad might be a Bengal cross with a white paw. I have no idea what they saw that made them think this. If their Queen got out accidentally it seems the father or fathers of the litter could have been any cat that was around, or several of them. Maybe they saw a cat hanging around that looked like it was a Bengal cross and guessed. They are not very communicative on any subject and asking what type of pattern or color the cat had, would probably not get an answer. I wish I had known more about these breeds so I would have known what to ask when I went to their home to pick my kitten up!

The SPCA in this area has been very successful in their spay and neuter program and for the most part everyone neuters their pet male cats. So probably most of the fertile male cats are feral or they are somehow thought to be special and are being kept intact because someone wants to use them to produce kittens. It is possible this causes the feral population to get the occasional infusion of genes from cats in the area being kept for breeding, if some of these male cats occasionally get out.

Is it common for cats fur to seem to be a substantially different color depending on the angle of the light? It is almost like the band of white in the outer hairs is somehow transparent and like water can either reflect the light back looking strongly silver grey or show the beige undercoat and look more brown. Is that even possible?

 

[StefanZ]

OK, so if it wasnt no known bengal mix, just a random moggie popularly called for bengal mix, we can practically assume it was a classic tabby / marbled tabby. Either he had or handnt real bengal background. Many a classic tabby gets the label of "must have a Bengal ancestor, probably granddad". I have myself done so now and then. When the bullseye is easily visible, we can presume its a classic tabby. But when there is no clear cut bullseye; the marbles more uneven, and coloring perhaps black and silver? Granddad comes here with a helping out hand!

And such a combination would add the nice ticked polish to the coat from the "bengal" ancestor, but the marbles are recessive contra the other older types of tabby... Thus spotted tabby from serval ancestor momma.


I havent thought so much on this phenomena you do describe so nicely, but yes, its true, the looks may be different in different light. And the cat being ticked makes it extra pronounced.