Vomiting from feeding digestive enzymes?

[tamgirl99]

Now that I'm transitioning my girls over to a raw diet, I thought it might be best to start introducing some digestive enzymes to ensure a smooth transition.  They've actually been eating raw for about 2 weeks (with lots of toppers since they're still not 100% sure 

) and one of them (Allie) has been burping quite a bit and hunching some.  So this morning, I put a very small amount of digestive enzymes in their Rad Cat lamb (half of the dose the directions called for) to introduce it slowly.  Well, both cats ate their full 1.5 oz (plus topper).  Allie didn't seem to have any problems, but my other one, Emmy, vomited the food up everywhere.  It was all over the bedroom and bathroom and she never vomits.  

 This happened within about 15 minutes of feeding it and although I didn't actually witness it, she came running for more food shortly after so I'm sure it was her.  Allie was outside in the cat enclosure anyways.

I tried doing a web search and couldn't find much on this.  Almost everything that comes up just says to use digestive enzymes to stop the vomiting, not that it might cause it.  Nothing else had changed in their diet so I know it had to be the enzymes.  Perhaps I need to start even more slowly?  The ones I'm using now are the Mercola pet enzymes, but I read a negative review with the Dr. Goodpet where their cat had this exact same reaction so I guess it can happen with all of them.

Any thoughts on this?  Has it happened to anyone else?  I read that it might be a "cleansing" action of the enzymes, but not sure I buy that completely.  I just wondered what others experiences were with digestive enzymes causing vomiting.  Thanks!!!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I use digestive enzymes, and have not had this reaction.  Mine DO vomit from time to time,and sometimes it's immediately after they eat their raw, but not normally, so I just chalk it up to whoever it was just

a) eating too fast

b) eating too much (letting someone finish someone else's

)  OR

c) in Darko's case, I know I cannot feed him certain toppers or he will vomit, poor guy

Do you always feed them Radcat lamb, or have you recently switched from something else? Just this week I added a teeny bit of Hare-Today same protein mix into Primal mix, and that made one of mine throw up.  I found that very strange, since they have never had that issue before. 

 

[ldg]

The lamb wasn't a new protein?

I don't believe the "cleansing" thing either. I also started using digestive enzymes for the cats about two weeks or so into the intro. I used Prozyme original. I didn't see any difference, so ended up giving the enzymes away. I'm using a different one now, Mercola, for Lazlo, but I can't tell if it's helping him or not (he has ongoing issues with intermittent nausea).

Any red meat makes Sheldon throw up 5 - 15 minutes after a meal. He can handle it now if it's 50% of a meal, but it took a while to get there.

If lamb isn't a new protein, I'd skip the enzymes (though it's possible it was just a coincidence, I guess? :dk: ).

 

[tamgirl99]

I think you're both right.  Sometimes everything can be exactly the same and they throw up for some odd reason.  I watched them both eat so they ate exactly their own portion (only 1.5 oz) and the lamb is not completely new.  They've eaten it about 4-5 times now and never had any problems.  The topper wasn't new either.  That's why I figure the enzymes are what caused it, especially since I've seen it mentioned a few times out in web land.  I'll start smaller and work my way up.  

I'm really only adding the enzymes because raw is new to them, I worry slightly about bones due to Carolina's experience with Lucky, and because my younger one has burping problems and some hunching.  Emmy has always had an iron stomach so this is really strange for her.  I may try keeping her off them completely or just working them in more slowly if I feel she needs them.  Thanks!

 

[tamgirl99]

I just thought of something else.  Even though she's eaten the lamb and the topper too many times, it might have been the combo of the two since that was the first time I had used that combination.  Geez, these sensitive little goofballs!

 

[ldg]

Yeah, we had a few months of the odd incident of vomiting or diarrhea. At first Gary was skeptical that this was all worth it. But now that they're all acting like kittens, silky soft, and not only no vomiting any more, but no more hairballs, he's convinced. :lol3: Of course, if I see if Shel can handle red meat at more than 50%....

I kind of doubt it was the enzymes - but you just never know. Every cat is different!

 

[tamgirl99]

Well, last night I happened to find where Emmy had thrown up more lamb, so it has to be that.  It's really strange though because she had two meals of it last week and was just fine with it. 

  Maybe the quantity was more than before, not sure.  Today she got Hare Today rabbit and since that has bone, I added a pinch of the digestive enzymes and she has kept it down all morning.  I don't think I'll buy any more lamb after I finished what I have since neither cats seem terribly crazy about it anyways.  I'll just feed a smaller amount to Emmy as well.

LDG - How long did it take before you started noticing the really positive changes from switching to raw?  

 

[ldg]

Well, I live in a really small home with 8 cats. So I noticed behavioral changes (which was REALLY surprising to me - I did not expect that) within a couple of days. We discussed it at the time and decided it was like when we've been eating only microwave dinners or something - even if they're "healthy" (I was feeding high quality canned before) - and then starting to eat only fresh fruit and veggies. It doesn't take long for your body to really feel better, not sluggish - and you're not as crabby because you're sleeping better, etc. And, of course, they immediately started peeing more, and pooping less volume and less frequently. Our cats never had stinky poop, but I guess a lot of people had cats that did, and that's usually an immediate difference. For me - those little tiny poops was really what convinced me that they are meant to eat raw food. Those poops are basically hair covered in a thin poop shell. They are digesting almost 100% of everything they are eating - there is no waste. Their bodies want this, is what that screams to me.

Over a couple of weeks, their fur got REALLY silky - and they were silky before. I mean the become insanely silky - it's hard to keep your hands off them! And they started being more active, playing more. Most of my cats are older (well, they range in age from 4 or 5 to 10), and they all were kind of "paunchy," and over a few weeks/few months, that REALLY changed. I did have to work on fine-tuning how much I was feeding them, because I was feeding too much at first, and they all started gaining weight. :lol3: But despite that, their body shapes started changing. They convert that fat to lean muscle mass, and they all got really well defined shoulders and hips, and those beautiful waist lines...

So the changes here started as soon as they were 100% raw (pee, poop), within a few days (behavioral - clearly feeling good inside!), and over a few months (skin/coat, fat/lean muscle mass changes).

Chumley was on various herbal meds for his "allergies." He stopped eating them a couple of weeks into 100% raw - and the problems did NOT come back. (Overgrooming, mowing his abdomen clean, diarrhea, etc.).

Tuxedo has fought feline hemolytic anemia since 2004, it almost took his life twice. He was already on the mend, and basically no longer needed the shots of depmodrol to suppress his immune system (which he needed for six years). But his first blood work, which was a couple of months after being on raw, he had a hematocrit of 41% (just off the charts kind of great!), and the vet was .... seriously impressed. :lol3:

We started raw when Lazlo was finishing his chemotherapy (for a massive mass in his stomach - large cell lymphoma). The chemo put him into remission. We started our transition - a few days ago, I think, this time last year. It took 10 days or so before we were 100% raw. He had his last chemo treatment Jan 31. Three weeks later, ultrasound confirmed he was in complete remission. We had an ultrasound done this past October, and at that time he remained in remission. Raw is considered the "cancer starving" diet, so I like to believe it's playing a role in keeping him in remission. :nod:

It doesn't seem to have affected Flowerbelle's health issues (high blood pressure, arthritis), but her problems are structural (physical damage done by herpes and scarring from horrible lung worm infection when rescued). The addition of krill oil instead of salmon oil, however, has REALLY impacted her mobility (most of the ball joints of her hips are gone). That isn't raw diet dependent, but I wasn't using an omega 3 supplement when they were on canned. Because of her high BP, supplementation with chrondroitin and glucosamine is contraindicated. But gizzards have both, and I feed them three times a week. I'm also giving her chicken feet, which have both and a lot of hyaluronic acid, and those may be helping too. :dk:

I've also fine-tuned the amount I feed and how I feed, and everyone (but Billy) has lost weight and toned up, and the vet is just really, really happy at how fit they all are. :lol3: Even Billy has lost weight and toned up - he just has some more to go.

Don't get me wrong... there was a fair amount of vomiting between the 8 of them the first few months. Spooky and Flowerbelle got constipated, and that needed to be dealt with. I had a fair amount of "bile" vomiting as their systems adjusted to being more acidic, and introducing red meats to Shel was a real process. Ming Loy got a small piece of (ground) bone stuck in the roof of her mouth, and that freaked us out - but didn't actually cause any problem. But in the end, for us, we felt it was worth it. Our kitties are the healthiest they've been in a long time - and those with issues are doing really well. And it was those little things along the way - them being nicer to each other (happier!), pee and poop volume, silky fur, the changes in their body shape - that kept us going when it was really frustrating. :lol3:

 

[tamgirl99]

Wow!  Thanks so much for the really detailed reply LDG!  I'm so glad to hear that it has worked out so well for you, and also to know there will be bumps in the road as it helps to anticipate these things instead of panicking when they do happen. 

Both of my girls have calicivirus and have congestion and laryngitis problems (leading to cough at times) as a result.  They've always been on a really healthy diets (wet food, meat only, no grains, etc.), but I'm hoping going raw will get them over the hump.  I'd say they've been 100% raw for about 5 days now and I have seen some improvements so far, but some negatives as well.  Allie is still hunching a lot which in my experience is due to gas, but perhaps it's the bile issue yours was having.  She is still playful and active though so I'm not too worried, I just hope her system adjusts soon.  She's the primary reason I'm adding the small amount of digestive enzymes, as well as probiotics.

I have some krill oil on the way and look forward to trying it.  Which brand do you like?  Emmy HATES fish so I'm hoping she takes to it okay. I might have to slowly work her way up on it.  After her recent knee surgery though, she really needs it.  I've been supplementing her with pure glucosamine/hyaluronic acid and I'm hoping the change to the raw diet helps her heal even more. 

 

[ldg]

Oh I am SURE the krill oil will help her too! :nod: I use the NOW Neptune softgels. But it's too expensive for all of them, so I only give it to Flowerbelle and Lazlo (the two who need it the most) at this point. They both hate it, actually, so I just pill them with it in the morning, before breakfast. :anon:

Laz didn't mind the salmon oil drops on his food - but really doesn't like the krill. It could be that with the salmon oil, I add just a few drops to each meal, and over the course of a day it totals up to 500mg, but with the krill oil, I squeezed (squoze? :lol3: ) it on all in one meal. :dk: And FYI, these two are the two that won't eat sardines. So her not liking fish is likely a good indicator she's not going to like the krill oil. Just preparing you for that decision on how to handle it..... On the other hand, Carolina's Bugsy hated sardines (I'm pretty sure), and hated salmon oil, but doesn't mind the krill....

And yeah, that meatloafing. Looking back, I would say it probably took them 3 to 4 months to fully adjust to the raw. :nod: Even after that, I noticed Shel meatloafing after a meal of pork, which I always thought of as a "white" meat... and he didn't throw it up like he does red meats, but I do think it makes him ... uncomfortable. He also can't handle raw liver or kidney, but can handle raw (beef) pancreas. :dk: So I started splitting up his pork meals 50/50 with a white meat (chicken breast or thigh or turkey breast) like I do the red meats, and his meatloafing after eating it stopped.

So see if the digestive enzymes help. :nod: :cross:

If not, you might consider trying some pepcid a/c for a little while. I know it suppresses the acid production they need, but Lazlo, because of the tumor in his stomach, had bleeding ulcers. So he was on pepcid a/c for the entire transition (to prevent their return) - in fact, I only switched him to two weeks on / two weeks off about a month ago. And he did fine, though had more of a hairball issue than the others (but was that because of the acid suppression or impaired mobility because of the cancer he had in his stomach? :dk: ) To use it to help prevent that nausea for 24 hours, it has to be given at least an hour before or after a meal (so on an empty stomach that's going to stay empty for at least an hour). I always gave it an hour or more after the last meal of the day, but there's no reason it can't be given in the middle of the day, depending on when you feed them. The dose Laz was on was 10mg, once a day. Some people split it in half, and give it twice a day. :dk: He weighed 9 pounds when we started, and 13 when we finished.

(FYI, for hairballs, I now give them 1/2 a capsule of egg yolk lecithin daily, except Lazlo, who gets a whole capsule daily, and slippery elm bark powder gelled in aloe vera juice twice a week. Hasn't had a hairball since starting this program (he hasn't actually thrown up a hairball since starting the lecithin, but he did have a hairball hack, which is why I started the slipper elm bark powder mix twice a week, and the hairball hack went away and hasn't come back). But hairballs make - well - used to make - my cats nauseous. The others don't need the slippery elm bark powder. We discuss all of this in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/250653/egg-lecithin-for-hairballs Though I'm not seeing Carolina talk about the slippery elm there... )

 

[otto]

tammgirl are you using a probiotic? Digestive enzymes help with the cat's absorption of the nutrients in the food, probiotics help keep a healthy gut bacterial balance (and would help with gas more than digestive enzymes, I would think).

All my cats take a probiotic, but I am using Prozyme original digestive enzymes for Mazy cat. I won't go into her history of why I started her on it in your thread, but after 3 months, frankly I am not seeing any difference that could be attributed to the Prozyme. In fact the ONLY change I see in Mazy since starting the Prozyme is....her whiskers! She has always had rather short skimpy whiskers, but after about 9 weeks on the Prozyme I suddenly noticed she now has a tremendous set of whiskers, long and luxuriant!

Mazy can't tolerate the Rad Cat lamb at all, she has never been able to keep any red meat down. Jennie and Queen Eva have no trouble with red meat.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

As to Krill Oil, I use the same one that Laurie does, and just this morning discovered that all 3 of mine love it!  And 2 of mine hate sardines.  So it just goes to show that you won't know till you try it

For some reason, I didn't think Darko liked the Krill Oil, so had been mixing it into his food and using a topper on it.  This morning I decided before mixing it in I was just going to set it down and see what happened.  He dug right in!  No toppers or anything

. 

 

[tamgirl99]

As to Krill Oil, I use the same one that Laurie does, and just this morning discovered that all 3 of mine love it!  And 2 of mine hate sardines.  So it just goes to show that you won't know till you try it

For some reason, I didn't think Darko liked the Krill Oil, so had been mixing it into his food and using a topper on it.  This morning I decided before mixing it in I was just going to set it down and see what happened.  He dug right in!  No toppers or anything

. 

Oh that's great to hear!  Although I'm pretty sure I won't be that lucky. Emmy is pretty picky when it comes to anything strong scented, but we'll see.  Allie on the other hand loves anything fish based, so I'm sure she'll take to it right away.  I get it in tonight so I'll report back on what happens.

How much are you both giving your kitties?  I've read it should be given 2-3 times a week, not daily like I had seen with fish oil in the past.  I've read the quantity given should be less as well but still not exactly sure what the right dose is.  Thanks!

 

[ldg]

I give my adult cats 500mg of either krill oil or salmon oil. The krill oil is supposedly more bioavailable, but I don't adjust the dose because of that.

For all the considerations, this is a really good thread to read: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/253393/omega-3-supplements-for-cats

 

[ldg]

OH - forgot to mention the probiotics. otto brings up a good point. Though the digestive enzymes theoretically help with digestion, so could (or sometimes do) alleviate the gassy problem some kitties have, if they don't seem to help with that, consider the probiotics. In addition to krill oil or salmon oil, I use probiotics daily for the cats. My theory is that in the wild, they'd be getting a dose of probiotics with every meal they eat (because they eat the whole animal, guts and all. We don't provide guts to them, but we can provide the probiotics).

On the recommendation of our holistic vet, we use a human acidophilus supplement with 10 billion CFU (live colony forming units). Most pet probiotics have far less CFU, and aren't live cultures, even though they're still measured in "CFU," they're typically fermentation product (which is dead, not live).

 

[tamgirl99]

Thanks LDG!!! Are you giving 500 mg daily or weekly?  I'm trying this tonight for their late meal at 9:00 and I'm keeping my fingers crossed.  I'll start off with just a small amount to see how they take it and will try to work my way up.

Yes, I do include probiotics daily as well.  I take them myself also and feel they are so important, especially when there are digestive problems going on.  I'm using one recommended by a holistic vet as well, plus I rotate it with the Mercola Pet Probiotics just to give a variety of friendly flora. 

 

[ldg]

Yep, starting small is the way to go!

I give them 500mg daily. :nod:

 

[tamgirl99]

Thanks again LDG!  I started them off with half that does.  I just split one 500 mg capsule between the two of them and they ate it okay.  Emmy, the one that hates all things fish, actually ate about 1/3 of her dinner with it in there and no toppers or anything.  But of course we had to finish with lots of toppers. LOL.

 

[ldg]

Oh that's great!

Because Flowerbelle has been having a weird breathing thing that I'm now suspecting is related to my giving her pills, so I started over with the krill on her food. I gave her one drop this morning, and she ate that. :lol3:

 

[tamgirl99]

Yep, even if you give them lots of water or treats after a pill, they're still prone to cause problems.  I rarely ever have to pill my two now, but I had that problem with a cat in the past.  Hopefully Flowerbelle will take it in food okay in the long run.  Another option is to soak it up in a few of her favorite freeze-dried treats and give that to her directly.