Urinary issues x2 - potential of a Idiopathic Cystitis diagnosis

[white cat lover]

I'm back, and with a very crummy problems x2!

Hugo & Holden have been with me since June 2012. They are 4 1/2 y/o neutered male Siamese mix brothers (front declawed). They were born in my house to Eden, a rescue off TCS and eventual foster failure (she lives w/ my parents at their house). Quite handsome devils, charmers, sweethearts, total lovebugs. They've had urinary issues, "out of the box" moments, on & off for most of their lives. Lots of vet visits, meds, urinalysis, etc.

They did great since arriving to live w/ me - limited issues - considering the extent of the previous issues. Fast forward to a several weeks ago, we upgraded to peeing on food stuffs & papers on the counter. Another urinalysis was done on both boys - and antibiotics were started for UTIs. After 3 weeks of one antibiotic, we're still not in the clear. Improved, but not clear. So now we've moved on to a new antibiotic, and Clomicalm. (They have responded negatively to Amitriptyline in the past.) Xrays were clear of stones today. I almost wish they had stones so there was a definitive problem to deal with!

So there is a tentative fear that it may be idiopathic. The boys are very.....sensitive souls. Needy, clingy......very Siamese. Amazing purrsonalities. I get killer back/neck massages as night as they're cuddled in bed with me smashed around my head as close as possible at night. :lol3:

The suggestion was made of a Rx diet - Hills C/D - but the vet is unsure if it will really help in their case or not. Which feeding an Rx diet with a large multi-cat family is a tough proposition. They already get wet food 1x/day. They eat primarily Nutro MAX dry with a little Iams dry mixed (not the best foods, I know, but decent). Hugo is a bit heavier at 14#, but not obese. Holden is a at good weight of 12 1/2#.

I've been searching threads on the forums, and am looking for thoughts/ideas that I can present to my vet.

PS - Forgot to mention that they're water *fantatics*. We have bare minimum 1 fountain running all the time, if I keep them all cleaned & in tip top shape the kitties have 3 different styles of fountains. :lol3: Sometimes I have one or two turned off for cleaning. Oh yeah & Holden can turn on certain faucets in the house so he & Hugo can get fresh drinks when they want.

 

[vball91]

Was a culture ever done to identify the bacteria? One suggestion I have is d-mannose which has been used successfully for bacteria, even when antibiotics were not successful. It supposedly only works for e. Coli and one other bacteria I cannot remember right now, but there are good reports even when bacteria were not identified.

No negative side effects have been identified, so it's worth a shot.

 

[feralvr]

Believe me! I know about these Siamese personalities and stress. Pipsqueak!!!!! He has had blood in urine - FIC diagnosis. Stress directly affects the bladder negatively in cats. The bladder wall inflames allowing cells to expand in which urine leaks into the wall. I hope I explained it right - but my vet certainly does a better job. :lol3: Pip has absolutely no crystals or stones. I do know the frustration level on that because you just want a definitive answer to the problem. With Pip - it's stress. period. He has been on and off of Elavil (Amitriptyline). How much were your guys getting of that drug in the past - the dosage? Pip was on 10 mg. once daily and that made him really out of it. After three weeks we went to 5 mg. I swear by this drug for this condition for Pip. It makes them retain their urine and gives the bladder time to heal and settle. Also at the same time, calms the cat. I have tried many other holistic options to no avail. OH - Pip is also on a raw diet - with some canned as well. We did try the C/D before the raw and it was awful for him. CORN!!! for Pip. He got a serious case of folliculitis - chine acne - as did three others from the C/D. It also did not help with his bladder and the blood at all. No change whatsoever. Wet food is the way to go, IMO, for cats with FIC. for Hugo and Holden.

 

[tammyp]

Bless you for helping these cats!  And peeing on food stuffs, oh my!!

I had the same thought as vball91 - was a culture done to find out the particular bugs?  If not, how do you/vet know it's an infection, and not the 'idiopathic' (meaning they have no medical idea) variety.  

And if it's not stones/cystals (yay) then the Hills won't do anything - this just acidifies things to dissolve alkaline stones.  (And they rarely test to see if the stones are actually alkaline or acidic).  It's pretty crap 'food' in any case.  Here's some reading if you havent seen it yet on the whole urinary tract thing and diet http://www.catinfo.org/?link=urinarytracthealth

I'm pretty sure you're right about stress being the cause.  They haven't had an easy ride, including their poor claws.  I'd say the best things are those you're likely already doing: routines, quality wet food (or raw), feliway, lots of avenues to de-stress (play is important for us, everyday, lots of it in length and frequency), lots of love and stability, lots of ways they can feel that this place is 'theirs' in terms of scratching (it scent marks), jumping around, going up, across, down, hidey places, beds etc..

 

[peaches08]

Has bloodwork been done? I'd want to rule out diabetes, etc.

You mentioned that they are declawed...my last declawed cat got sore on certain types of litter. She couldn't deal with coarse gravel types of litter, she needed softer sandy types. Also, some cats don't like scented litters. Also, some cats don't like hooded boxes. Just some thoughts!

 

[white cat lover]

Thanks for the thoughts/ideas, I'll try to answer all the questions!

I'm fairly certain bloodwork was done (I have left them at the vet's office while I'm at work, so they can be examined/tested). The bloodwork, in conjunction w/ the urinalysis, is why we are going the route of antibiotics. We haven't sent the urine out for a true culture yet, the examination of it was done by the vet in house. So it's not as "reliable" as sending it to a lab for a culture.

I would have to check with the vet for the dosage for sure on the Ami, I truthfully don't remember if it was 5 mg or 10 mg.

I too considered the liltterbox aspect. They have a few kinds of litter (unscented), with 5 styles of litterboxes, in a variety of locations to choose from. With a multicat household, I didn't need pee problems starting. So I like to give them options. :lol3:

 

[PlatinumX]

Bless you for helping these cats! And peeing on food stuffs, oh my!!

I had the same thought as vball91 - was a culture done to find out the particular bugs? If not, how do you/vet know it's an infection, and not the 'idiopathic' (meaning they have no medical idea) variety.

And if it's not stones/cystals (yay) then the Hills won't do anything - this just acidifies things to dissolve alkaline stones. (And they rarely test to see if the stones are actually alkaline or acidic). It's pretty crap 'food' in any case. Here's some reading if you havent seen it yet on the whole urinary tract thing and diet Cat Urinary Tract Diseases: Cystitis, Urethral Obstruction, Urinary Tract Infection

I'm pretty sure you're right about stress being the cause. They haven't had an easy ride, including their poor claws. I'd say the best things are those you're likely already doing: routines, quality wet food (or raw), feliway, lots of avenues to de-stress (play is important for us, everyday, lots of it in length and frequency), lots of love and stability, lots of ways they can feel that this place is 'theirs' in terms of scratching (it scent marks), jumping around, going up, across, down, hidey places, beds etc..

Thanks for the thoughts/ideas, I'll try to answer all the questions!

I'm fairly certain bloodwork was done (I have left them at the vet's office while I'm at work, so they can be examined/tested). The bloodwork, in conjunction w/ the urinalysis, is why we are going the route of antibiotics. We haven't sent the urine out for a true culture yet, the examination of it was done by the vet in house. So it's not as "reliable" as sending it to a lab for a culture.

I would have to check with the vet for the dosage for sure on the Ami, I truthfully don't remember if it was 5 mg or 10 mg.

I too considered the liltterbox aspect. They have a few kinds of litter (unscented), with 5 styles of litterboxes, in a variety of locations to choose from. With a multicat household, I didn't need pee problems starting. So I like to give them options. :lol3:

I

Thanks for the thoughts/ideas, I'll try to answer all the questions!

I'm fairly certain bloodwork was done (I have left them at the vet's office while I'm at work, so they can be examined/tested). The bloodwork, in conjunction w/ the urinalysis, is why we are going the route of antibiotics. We haven't sent the urine out for a true culture yet, the examination of it was done by the vet in house. So it's not as "reliable" as sending it to a lab for a culture.

I would have to check with the vet for the dosage for sure on the Ami, I truthfully don't remember if it was 5 mg or 10 mg.

I too considered the liltterbox aspect. They have a few kinds of litter (unscented), with 5 styles of litterboxes, in a variety of locations to choose from. With a multicat household, I didn't need pee problems starting. So I like to give them options. :lol3:

• I am new however have been breeding for 12 years Persians . Cats are as complex as they are simple. I have found the cats in your home especially breeding cats the males have the most problems mostly stress related . Which for them can turn dirty and dangerous quickly. A single cat peeing outside the box is something I never take lightly especially a male. There are many theories as to why when they have a UTI or bladder or blockage they don’t use the box. I say theory because they are not telling ANYONE why. I feel it is several pain and it comes out wherever . My theory. Multiple cats not using the box I would say it’s a social problem between them . And can destroy your home and your cats fast. The alpha is being challenged and the term copy cat is truth . Low or no dust litter is best . I would have all of them
• The same if it were me . I hope I read the posting correctly. Like children and dogs ect cats like consistency a routine that bring my reason for the same litter. Sounds to myself as well it’s stress . When one cat doesn’t use the box the next copies to cover it up so on and so on now everyone is stressed. Cats are very territorial and are NOT pack animals like dogs. So in a multi cat household thee are so many factors regarding their comfort level. What I have read and been told is you put out 1 more box than you have cats .. so
• 5 cats 6 boxes. Sounds like you do everything possible for your cats perhaps time will heal all.
• As I said I’m new and look forward to meeting people on here I stumbled across this site tonight so glad I did .
• Hope things are better or get better. Take care, Shellie