Upstairs, downstairs, starring old cat, new cat!

[barbgee]

 
A good friend, due to unfortunate circumstances, had to move from a home into an apartment, and couldn't take her cat. I have volunteered to take her cat into my household.

I already have a cat; a tripod, that was originally a kitty I TNRed, who lost her leg after an injury. I have had my "Kitty" as an indoor cat now over 1.5 years, but she lives on the 2nd floor of my home. She simply will not come down stairs, does not jump UP on anything, and only kind of pulls herself up onto my bed when I'm in there. She was a "semi-feral", I'm thinking 1st generation, because she came to trust me and bond with me, but she's certainly no "normal" housecat or lapcat. We "understand" each other, she will cuddle and wants playtime and petting, but there's certain handling I just don't do, out of my own fear, mostly. If I had no fear, I'd simply grab her and take her down the stairs, for example!

New cat, is approximately same age as my Kitty (~4-6 y.o.), maybe a year older. New cat is also a female, a front only DECLAW, but very spry, and her owner let her outside all the time. (?? I find that so odd, declaw, outdoors in a big busy city neighborhood.)  Anyway, I am doing the slow introduction, with new cat on 1st floor, Kitty remaining upstairs, the "scent exchange" thing and all the other cat behavior stuff I've read about, regarding slow and gentle introduction of two adult cats to each other. Feliway; check. But the new cat is a stranger to me, to my house, and ultimately to my homey cat, Kitty. I am terrified that this will fail miserably, and I am well aware of "that which you fear most, you will create".

I think that the two cats are well matched by size, and by temperament; both have lots of outdoors experience; one a semi-feral, the other a stray taken in, but still allowed outdoor access. That outdoor access will stop in my household, unless I can get her into a harness and on a leash.  I took her to the vet before I even brought her home, to get her microchipped, examined, and updated on vaccines, as well as blood work and checked for worms. She's been acclimating in her own space, an office/bathroom arrangement, and I gave her free reign to the downstairs, thinking that the extra tall pet gate at the top of the stairs, covered with a blanket, would keep her from getting into Kitty's space.  Ha Ha, when I heard meow meow meow, and went upstairs to find new cat had gotten onto the other side of the fence, and the two were just facing off. No hissing, growling, big hair, but I opened the gat and New Cat ran back downstairs like a flash. I took the gate down, what's the point, but now I've got an Upstair Downstairs thing going on here.  New cat looks out the window a lot, meows sometimes, but hasn't (as far as I know) gone back upstairs. Resident Cat will often just peer down the stairs, trying to catch a glimpse of new cat, but is otherwise behaving just fine.

So.....  Now I'm thinking about trying a "space swap"; closing Kitty in one of the 2 bedrooms, bringing up New Cat into the other bedroom, let her smell around..  But, who do I let out to have access to the other door? Or not even allow "under the door" contact yet?  I'm only thinking of a brief visit, not more than an hour, if that, depending. New Cat is easy to handle, luckily.  So confused. Should I nudge them into a little interaction, or just continue this way. I've had her about 10 days now.

I cannot believe that decades ago, when I had other cats, we just brought the new one in, opened the carrier, and let them "work it out amongst themselves"!

 

[red top rescue]

 If something is working, don't try to "fix" it.  This is WORKING and isn't going to fail miserably at all.  It's quite perfect.

First of all, thanks for rescuing your Kitty and trying to understand her and let her be herself.  She has chosen the upstairs as her territory.  There is no reason to force her to come downstairs.  For one thing, stairs are a little difficult for three-legged cats, so she probably feels more secure not dealing with them.  For another, if she is a bit feral and shy, the upstairs is safer because nobody comes in and out from the outside.  If anyone is coming up the stairs she can hear them and hide if need be.

My heart goes out to NEW Cat.  For one thing, she is declawed, which makes most cats a little timid and insecure anyhow.  The fact that she was declawed and then allowed outside, and then left behind because her owner chose to move to a no-cats apartment rather than find one that allowed cats is something I will just have to let go, because

I can't fix that. 

However, this turned out to be a good thing for New Cat because now she has YOU, and she isn't going out anymore, unless she gets harness trained later. She has gone to the vet where you obviously spent a great deal of money making sure she was healthy, vaccinated and microchipped in case she accidentally gets out.  This is what great cat guardians do.  Her life has just improved.   Right now, she is a safe indoor cat, as she should have been all along.  She will not be left behind again because you would not do that to her or to Kitty, so this is a FURREVER type of home.  She was checking out the new accommodations and exploring every nook and cranny, no smell of another cat downstairs or on the stairs, jumps the gate and "OMG!"

Kitty already owns the upstairs. OOPS! Meow meow meow! ("Excuse me, sorry, I didn't know this was YOUR territory, I'll be leaving as soon as I can figure out how to jump this gate backwards...") so when you opened the gate she bolted back to her familiar downstairs territory.  There was big hair but no fighting.  Territories clearly established, no harm, no foul.

She is a polite girl and is not trying to take over the upstairs. Kitty is curious and is looking downstairs.  New Cat is a little confused and is looking out the window wondering if she can escape outside in case Kitty should come downstairs and attack her.  She doesn't know Kitty doesn't come down the stairs.  Having had outside experience, she obviously understands cat language and territories and will follow those rules.  I this situation, you don't need to do site swapping. The girls have it handled between them.  No human interference is needed -- no nudging, no forcing.  It's just like the old days when you opened the carrier and let them work it out for themselves.  You have two non-aggressive cats here, both of which have been outside before and know how to speak "cat" and you can just watch it unfold.  Right now, each has a territory.  They may choose to stay separate, they may choose to check each other out.  Each has been an only cat in the house, so that works also.

The Cat Goddess was obviously watching over both cats and will bless you for serving her -- and them.  We will look forward to follow up posts if they ever decide to change it from Upstairs Downstairs, and if not, that's fine too.

 

[Columbine]

Your first meeting sounds like the first meeting my current two had! They're getting on well now, btw

Space swapping would be a good next step. Ideally, shut the upstairs cat in one room, and then let the new cat explore the rest of the upstairs. The next day you could maybe use the other bedroom, so that New Cat gets to see the whole of the upstairs. Alternate rooms like that for a few days.

Allow under door access if the cats show they want it, but don't force it. If you can get someone to help, giving extra yummy treats either side of the closed door, then that will build up positive associations. In time, you can put the baby gate in the bedroom door and gradually increase the level of access. Just be patient.

Having said all that, Asha and Shadow largely spend their time on different floors - Asha's primarily an upstairs cat and Shadow's primarily a downstairs cat. It's simply how they've chosen to share the territory. Before Asha, Shadow and his brother Cali worked on a time share system - Cali was active during the day, and Shadow was active during the night. They got together each night for a quick wrestle and shift change!

Basically, it sounds like your two are doing fine. Just don't force the physical interaction, and remember that they may never be snuggle buddies.

These articles may help :-
http://www.thecatsite.com/a/the-ultimate-yet-simplified-guide-to-introducing-cats
http://www.thecatsite.com/a/introducing-cats-to-cats

 

[barbgee]

Wow, thank you so much for the kind words and the reassurance!  Your analysis is pretty awesome, a lot I didn't consider!

I am trying hard to balance maintaining normality for Resident tripod Kitty, but I also want New Cat to not feel neglected and alone.  I am basically her new "mommy", and I think her old mom had her living a very different lifestyle than I will.  I like a little structure for my Kitty, and we have some routines.  Adding New Cat makes things take longer, but I am hoping she will come to like the regularity and predictability.  But I also want her to trust me and befriend me.  I know it can be done, as I've had success with Kitty, and I know that takes time just sitting and hanging out first, and adding positive experiences along the way.

I do have some reasons to get New Cat upstairs;

1)  New Cat has been described as an "escape artist", and I'd like to get her upstairs so I don't have to worry as much about her darting out the doors.  I realize she will always have full range of the house, but I also have a small hope that maybe Tripod Kitty might actually find reason to come DOWN stairs now. 

2) I feel a bit sad that Tripod Kitty lives her whole life counting on me as her only companion.  She doesn't look out windows, and when I'm home, she mostly sleeps or hangs out. So in some way, my motivation is a bit selfish; I'd love for Kitty to have a cat friend.

3) I need to get her upstairs, so when boyfriend comes to visit on weekends, with his PARROT, I can sequester the cats upstairs.  Parrot doesn't stay in a cage, but instead on an open perch, and I don't know how New Cat and Parrot will get along.

I need to develop more patience, and less anxiety!  But, I want everyone to be happy, NOW! 

I'll keep you all posted as things come along.  This week the big deal will be the cat sitter coming on Sat. while I am gone for the weekend, from Fri. to Sunday....

 

[Columbine]

Why do I get the feeling that New Cat plus lose parrot would equal one dead parrot?

There's no reason at all why New Cat shouldn't claim the upstairs as shared territory in time. Try to chill about it though. For now, you could set an upstairs room aside for New Cat for when your bf comes over. Another option would be a large dog crate. These can work wonderfully for introductions as the cats can get to know each other whilst keeping everyone safe. As there doesn't seem to be any aggression between your two, it might be worth considering.

(I should say that this method didn't work for me, but that was because Asha had just come out of a situation where she was being majorly bullied by another cat, and she was just too scared when she couldn't get away.)

As you said...stop being so impatient
This has to be no big deal to you (at least, that's what you want the cats to think :lol3: ). Let them take the lead. Rushing will only store up future problems.

Hooe all goes well with the cat sitter. Have a little faith in the cats - I'm sure they'll work things out in time

 

[evamilly]

 
A good friend, due to unfortunate circumstances, had to move from a home into an apartment, and couldn't take her cat. I have volunteered to take her cat into my household.


I already have a cat; a tripod, that was originally a kitty I TNRed, who lost her leg after an injury. I have had my "Kitty" as an indoor cat now over 1.5 years, but she lives on the 2nd floor of my home. She simply will not come down stairs, does not jump UP on anything, and only kind of pulls herself up onto my bed when I'm in there. She was a "semi-feral", I'm thinking 1st generation, because she came to trust me and bond with me, but she's certainly no "normal" housecat or lapcat. We "understand" each other, she will cuddle and wants playtime and petting, but there's certain handling I just don't do, out of my own fear, mostly. If I had no fear, I'd simply grab her and take her down the stairs, for example!


New cat, is approximately same age as my Kitty (~4-6 y.o.), maybe a year older. New cat is also a female, a front only DECLAW, but very spry, and her owner let her outside all the time. (?? I find that so odd, declaw, outdoors in a big busy city neighborhood.)  Anyway, I am doing the slow introduction, with new cat on 1st floor, Kitty remaining upstairs, the "scent exchange" thing and all the other cat behavior stuff I've read about, regarding slow and gentle introduction of two adult cats to each other. Feliway; check. But the new cat is a stranger to me, to my house, and ultimately to my homey cat, Kitty. I am terrified that this will fail miserably, and I am well aware of "that which you fear most, you will create".
 
I think that the two cats are well matched by size, and by temperament; both have lots of outdoors experience; one a semi-feral, the other a stray taken in, but still allowed outdoor access. That outdoor access will stop in my household, unless I can get her into a harness and on a leash.  I took her to the vet before I even brought her home, to get her microchipped, examined, and updated on vaccines, as well as blood work and checked for worms. She's been acclimating in her own space, an office/bathroom arrangement, and I gave her free reign to the downstairs, thinking that the extra tall pet gate at the top of the stairs, covered with a blanket, would keep her from getting into Kitty's space.  Ha Ha, when I heard meow meow meow, and went upstairs to find new cat had gotten onto the other side of the fence, and the two were just facing off. No hissing, growling, big hair, but I opened the gat and New Cat ran back downstairs like a flash. I took the gate down, what's the point, but now I've got an Upstair Downstairs thing going on here.  New cat looks out the window a lot, meows sometimes, but hasn't (as far as I know) gone back upstairs. Resident Cat will often just peer down the stairs, trying to catch a glimpse of new cat, but is otherwise behaving just fine.
 
So.....  Now I'm thinking about trying a "space swap"; closing Kitty in one of the 2 bedrooms, bringing up New Cat into the other bedroom, let her smell around..  But, who do I let out to have access to the other door? Or not even allow "under the door" contact yet?  I'm only thinking of a brief visit, not more than an hour, if that, depending. New Cat is easy to handle, luckily.  So confused. Should I nudge them into a little interaction, or just continue this way. I've had her about 10 days now.
 
I cannot believe that decades ago, when I had other cats, we just brought the new one in, opened the carrier, and let them "work it out amongst themselves"!

I have exactly (well nearly) the same situation, my 1st cat (Eva) I've had since she was a kitten, she is now twelve. My second cat Princess was a stray, I took her in nearly one year ago. My adopted stray stays up stairs mostly, and Eva mainly stays down stairs although she will venture upstairs and even hops onto the bed with Princess. There were a few hisses at first but now they seem to tolerate each other, they are not best buds but there are no dramas thank goodness! I do occasionally take Princess downstairs, some times she has a look around but mostly she goes back straight away! However I did wake up at 3a.m the other night to find Princess walking up the stairs, so she does venture downstairs at night! They seem to have worked out times/territories without any help from me! I agree with the previous post, just let them work it out for their selves :nod:

 

[BonitaBaby]

That's so great that you took in your friend's kitty! I agree with letting them work it out at their own pace for now. Unless they get into a hissing match or a fight, they seem to be doing well. Pushing them might stress one or both of them out and cause problems between them. Don't feel badly for tripod kitty if she seems happy! I adopted my first cat 9.5 months ago and a couple of months ago, I started thinking about getting her a companion in case she was lonely since she just has me. She got really ill suddenly though and the emergency bills cost me so much that I decided not to get a 2nd cat. But then I realized that my cat seems really happy being an only kitty. She is not interested in going outside at all. She just hangs out with me, often in the same room. She just needs me to play with her some more, but she's really happy being an only kitty. I think for her, since she's territorial, she most likely would have stress and problems with most other kitties. Sounds like the two cats are doing really well so far. They may even need their own territories until they decide to hang out together. I hope it keeps going well! 

Oh, and I'm so glad that you're making the new cat an indoor only kitty! I don't see how she would be able to defend herself well if her front paws are declawed...

 

[barbgee]

 
Oh, and I'm so glad that you're making the new cat an indoor only kitty! I don't see how she would be able to defend herself well if her front paws are declawed...

I think that she's learned that the key to survival is running and getting away.  She's really fast, really tiny (6.3lbs when I got her), jumps VERY well, very nimble.  I half wonder if she just gave up on fighting, although that would seem impossible, but I've not yet seen her hiss, and when I seem to do something that maybe is annoying her, she'll meow in a really strange way, and maybe do the lightest little nip with her teeth.  Meowing is new to me, since the former feral only very rarely meows.  I had cats a very very long time ago, so it's a bit like starting all over, learning what cats meows are all about again.  I can recognize that much of her meowing is a bit distressed, and she doesn't like much cuddling, so I'm not feeling like I can comfort her all that much.

 

[barbgee]

Why do I get the feeling that New Cat plus lose parrot would equal one dead parrot?

 

You'd be surprised at just how well a parrot can bite, flap and even attack!  I'm not sure how we're going to sort that out...  I'd prefer the bird to have his own room or very large crate. I may consider screen doors, but it's really not an aesthetically pleasing choice!

 

[barbgee]

First of all, thanks for rescuing your Kitty and trying to understand her and let her be herself.  She has chosen the upstairs as her territory.  There is no reason to force her to come downstairs.  For one thing, stairs are a little difficult for three-legged cats, so she probably feels more secure not dealing with them.  For another, if she is a bit feral and shy, the upstairs is safer because nobody comes in and out from the outside.  If anyone is coming up the stairs she can hear them and hide if need be.

My heart goes out to NEW Cat.  For one thing, she is declawed, which makes most cats a little timid and insecure anyhow.  The fact that she was declawed and then allowed outside, and then left behind because her owner chose to move to a no-cats apartment rather than find one that allowed cats is something I will just have to let go, because

I can't fix that.

However, this turned out to be a good thing for New Cat because now she has YOU, and she isn't going out anymore, unless she gets harness trained later. She has gone to the vet where you obviously spent a great deal of money making sure she was healthy, vaccinated and microchipped in case she accidentally gets out.  This is what great cat guardians do.  Her life has just improved.   Right now, she is a safe indoor cat, as she should have been all along.  She will not be left behind again because you would not do that to her or to Kitty, so this is a FURREVER type of home.  She was checking out the new accommodations and exploring every nook and cranny, no smell of another cat downstairs or on the stairs, jumps the gate and "OMG!"

Upstairs Kitty is funny about company or visitors.  If she hears someone come in, she jumps into my bed under the covers and hides there!  We can clearly see the bump under the covers, but since she must see this as her invisibility cloak safe space, we respect it, and don't pester her or coax her out other than "it's okay Kitty, you can come out now!"  It took a good year of patient weekends of my Boyfriend just sitting up there with her, before she stopped hissing at him, running, hiding. Now they are good buds, but he's the only other one Kitty trusts. The cat sitter has been coming on odd weekends all this time, and Kitty still is known to her as only "Bump in the Bed"!

I have cut New Cat's old owner a little slack.  She got herself into a horrible financial jam, has lost her house, has no job, and the only apartment she could find was with her working son and buddy of the son's.  It was either me, or she was going to take her to a shelter. The thought of New Cat living in a cage on display for the "Adoption Fairs" and such, just hurts me to think about.  And for what it's worth, her old mom does "feel bad" that she had her front declawed...   I don't think New Cat was neglected, as much as she was allowed to live without much structure, in a house with noise, people coming and going, clompy footed young men...

It's funny too, that her former mom is asking when I'll take New Cat out on a harness.  Part of me says NEVER, the other part wonders if it might not be good to get her oriented to a little of the new neighborhood.  We have dogs, everywhere...  Although I do see, a few housecats out at night...  I hate that, because we live in Chicago, a busy place, with lots of cars, and a big busy street, and as far as I am concerned all that is outside is DANGER.

I'll try to chill a bit.  And maybe once or twice a week I'll sleep downstairs, on the sofa, so New Cat isn't just pacing the first floor on her own...

 

[fhicat]

3) I need to get her upstairs, so when boyfriend comes to visit on weekends, with his PARROT, I can sequester the cats upstairs.  Parrot doesn't stay in a cage, but instead on an open perch, and I don't know how New Cat and Parrot will get along.

Very, very bad idea. Cat and bird should never be loose around the house. No matter how close you supervise, the parrot is a prey, with prey-like movement and noises. All it takes is one quick incident faster than you even realized what happened. The parrot should be in a cage (ideal), or the cat locked up (not so great for a resident cat).

 

[barbgee]

 
Very, very bad idea. Cat and bird should never be loose around the house. No matter how close you supervise, the parrot is a prey, with prey-like movement and noises. All it takes is one quick incident faster than you even realized what happened. The parrot should be in a cage (ideal), or the cat locked up (not so great for a resident cat).

Yeah, I'm trying to convince boyfriend that it's the bird that needs to be closed in something safe, not the cats. My house has open floor plan, except for a few doors upstairs.

 

[red top rescue]

A cage for the visiting parrot is a good idea OR sequester visiting parrot upstairs in the spare room.  Also, you may be able to find a nice large parrot cage that someone is selling cheap since you live in a big city and there should be lots of things for sale in the paper etc.  Parrots are usually large enough and loud enough so that cats don't hunt them.  A friend of mine who is a vet also has many birds including parrots, and her cats are not the slightest bit interested in them.

 

[NewYork1303]

Our dog and our cats have a similar territory situation worked out. Neither cat has an extreme problem with the dog and after significant training the dog doesn't really chase after the cats. The dog however does like to lick any kind of small animal if it comes near her (a product of having puppies at a young age before we ever got her). Since the cats don't exactly love that, they've worked out their own spaces. The cats have the master bedroom, bathroom, and living room on the same side of the house. The dog gets the living room on the other side of the house with access to that bathroom and outdoors when she asks. The kitchen and dining room are no mans land mostly because none of the animals like the loud noises in the kitchen. No one is allowed in the laundry room since the door is kept close to prevent indoor cats from escaping. The dog will sometimes visit the master bedroom and the cats will sometimes visit the dog's space, but for the most part they stay in their own areas.

I don't see any problem with the cats staying separate and working it out. If you do want the new cat to be upstairs more, then do try putting her up there with the other cat confined. It sounds like they'll be able to get along though since neither seems too aggressive.

 

[barbgee]

 
I don't see any problem with the cats staying separate and working it out. If you do want the new cat to be upstairs more, then do try putting her up there with the other cat confined. It sounds like they'll be able to get along though since neither seems too aggressive.

Since I sleep upstairs, I'd like them to both spend more time with me there, and hopefully time together.  Resident Kitty actually has the bigger bedroom as mostly the "Cat Room", but now I've got duplication on both floors.  Ideally, I'd have only litter on 2 floors, but would like to get feeding station and play room in one place in the house.  At night ResidentKitty comes to my room and sleeps with me, gets up and down throughout the night and goes to play with toys or whatever she does.  I just don't feel like NewCat is getting anywhere near enough time with me, or getting to know me, much less Resident Kitty.  Only today, for the first time, did she sit on the sofa and snuggle next to me for petting.  Usually she'd only let me pet her in passing.

I do go to work 3 days a week, so they are both home alone a lot, on weekends sometimes as well, when I go out to the boyfriend's house.  Even if they do not become BFFs, if they could cross paths sometimes and interact a little I'd feel better about them being without me, but with each other.

 

[barbgee]

UPDATE:

NewCat cuddled on the sofa with me yesterday, she has been more out and about on the first floor.

I put her collar and tag on her, because I am terrified that she could escape and not know where she is, and she really didn't fuss about the collar ONE BIT. That is WEIRD to me.  LIke, she just doesn't care about it...  I will watch her with it on til I go to bed tonight, and if it looks like she's not going to fuss with it, I may leave it on her overnight.  I've read enough to know that she should be watched the first few hours if not days with a new collar on.  It's a "breakaway" collar for small cats, which she is.

Resident Kitty is a little worked up today.  This A.M. when we were playing, she got too frisky, and actually hissed and bared her fangs at me today a little!  I've heard some occasional hiss without any other agression/anger signs, so this was a bit unexpected.  I'll keep my eye on her!

Speaking of tags;

I put on the front:

NAME

I'M LOST

and on the back:

my phone number

REWARD

I'm hoping it's clear if she gets out and someone can look at her tag, they'd understand she's not supposed to be outside.

What do you think of adding "I'M LOST" , to her tag info?

 

[Columbine]

New Cat sounds like she's doing great...really starting to feel at home I absolutely understand why you want her to wear a collar. It does give a little extra piece of mind. The tags sounds fine to me You might want to get her microchipped too (or, if she's already chipped, getting your details attached to the chip so that her info is up to date). We always chip our cats - even though they're never going outside (at least, not intentionally ).

Try not to stress too much about Kitty. She's bound to feel a little unsettled at the moment. Remember that sharing the house with another cat is still very new to her. Forgive me if this has already been said, but you might find Feliway diffusers will ease her stress levels a little.

Keep doing what you're doing. It's obviously working :nod:

 

[BonitaBaby]

 
I put her collar and tag on her, because I am terrified that she could escape and not know where she is, and she really didn't fuss about the collar ONE BIT. That is WEIRD to me.  LIke, she just doesn't care about it... 

Wow! That's great and also weird! When I first put my indoor cat's collar on her to take her to the vet, she immediately changed and became so unhappy-looking. The second time I put it on her about a month later, she immediately deflated and sat there staring down at the floor and was just so unhappy that I didn't put her collar on her for her subsequent vet visits. I hope she never escapes! I have "REWARD" on my cat's tag under her name with my phone # on the backside but that doesn't help if it's not her if she ever, God forbid, escapes. The "I'm Lost' is great! I wish I'd thought of that. 

Also, I second the Feliway diffusers. If it works, then things will be so much better. If it doesn't, it was worth a try. But it may take up to a month or slightly more to work and you would need one per room. Two per room if the room is large. To cut down on costs, you could focus on the main rooms each cat would be in. 

 

[barbgee]

I've been using Feliway ever since I brought in ResidentCat and was first socializing her, ~2 years ago.  One diffuser in each bedroom.  I added a diffuser downstairs where NewCat's basecamp is.  And I spray around both doors, since she was anxious to want to go outside.

I laugh that I should own stock in Feliway, or that they should invent a whole-house diffuser.  I actually wrote to them about it, asking if there was some kind of bulk discount I could get on the stuff, and they said I should speak to my vet, they could arrange some kind of bulk pricing.  I will ask about it, because I go through the stuff pretty fast.

I know many say it doesn't work, or they didn't notice any effect, but if one of the diffusers runs out for ResidentCat I notice she does more kind of random anxious grooming.  So, for what it's worth, I think it works.  If only it calmed ME down!

 

[Columbine]

With the Feliway - see what you can find on veterinary supplies sites. Search 'wholesale' and see what comes up. Not all wholesale suppliers demand business details...you might be able to find a better price. Check out discount sites too - here in the uk, I found some on groupon for 50% off! You never know...