Two new litters within 3 days!!

[goldenkitty45]

Sarah brings up a good point about studs. A long time ago a friend of mine used to breed British SH's. He had his studs in floor to ceiling cages that you could easily walk in with plenty of room. The stud had a female in there with him at the time.

They were not doing anything when the owner came in the door. However, the owner wound up being attacked by the stud - why? Because he walked between the stud and the female in heat and the stud just got aggressive thinking the owner was gonna take the female away! Granted its an extreme example and not typical, but it could happen to any breeding male.

BTW Sarah - welcome to Cat Site - I know you are on the other board cause I'm there too

Love your Devons, tho I'm more of a Cornie fan in the rexes.

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

A well known breeder and judge frequently posts this advice on his forum on allexperts.com. Not sure if list rules would allow me to cross post, but a little bit of searching should pull it up for you. The key word is 'ideal.' Not always. Every queen is different and of course this can't apply to every situation, but the important thing is that we as breeders always put the needs of our cats first. You do not breed on the first heat cycle after delivery. Nothing justifies 77 days between litters.

I once had a litter of 9 out of a queen who cycled constantly. Re-breeding her was not an option, as she began cycling when the kittens were 6 weeks old. I elected to have my vet give her a form a birth control that would last 6 months so that she could recover from the delivery without risking a Pyo. My vet is also a breeder and he does the same with his own

She went on to have a litter of 5.

I guess I would more inclined to accept that theory if some sort of study had been done by some researching vets. Being a breeder and judge really doesn't qualify someone to make blanket statements like that, even if the word 'ideal" is stressed.

I of course agree that breeding on first heat is not advisable and the time period in question was too short. The catch 22 is that often the milk goes bad when the queens cycle into heat. If kittens are still nursing, suddenly you have kittens vomiting up curdled milk and bouts of diarrhea. If you breed her, then the milk dries up and the kittens nurse but get nothing.

I wasn't aware that there was any approved form of birth control for cats in the USA. I know there is a product in Europe that some breeders have used here, but there have been reports of sterility after it's use.
What was it that you used?

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by Mirex

Studs are studs and not pets

This seriously sounds very very wrong to me. What are the studs for you if not pets? Are they just some objects you use and then what? That's just horrible.
The breeders over here never cage their studs or keep them anywhere 'out of sight'. I've never heard of anyone being attacked by a stud, no matter what breed we are talking about. I can see that happening with an isolated stud who isn't that familiar with it's owner (because of being isolated), but that sounds very disturbing to me and that something must be wrong! I wouldn't use an aggressive stud in a breeding program. Is that really normal to you?!

My studs are my pets, my much loved family members. It just sounds very sad to me that apparently in other side of the world they are just 'studs'.

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

This seriously sounds very very wrong to me. What are the studs for you if not pets? Are they just some objects you use and then what? That's just horrible.
The breeders over here never cage their studs or keep them anywhere 'out of sight'. I've never heard of anyone being attacked by a stud, no matter what breed we are talking about. I can see that happening with an isolated stud who isn't that familiar with it's owner (because of being isolated), but that sounds very disturbing to me and that something must be wrong! I wouldn't use an aggressive stud in a breeding program. Is that really normal to you?!

My studs are my pets, my much loved family members. It just sounds very sad to me that apparently in other side of the world they are just 'studs'.

My thinking is more in your corner too. Our studs are pets, they are not banished to cages, yet they are not allowed to roam freely either. If I could not provide a spacious room with windows and natural light for each stud, I would not be breeding.
13 years of breeding and we have never had a stud attack for any reason and I have gotten in between a stud and his girl in heat, many a time.

If any one of my breeding cats ever attacked me, they would be removed from the breeding program post haste.

 

[goldenkitty45]

I did say this was not normal stud behavior and at the time (first got into purebred cats) thought this was wrong to let the cat breed with a temperament like that. But I was nieve about things.

This was just a related story. I did get to see the set up and the male was not isolated - the guy had 2-3 studs in separate pens and they were pretty roomy (could hold a full size treehouse and plenty of room). He just said this was normal for male Brits - I didn't have Brits, so how would I know it was just this one male?

When I had my breeding Rex male - he was a lover and he was allowed to run in the house a lot - he was my pet even tho he was a breeding cat. But he was caged at night or when I could not watch him so he didn't just breed my female when he wanted to.

 

[missymotus]

Being a new breeder I don’t keep my own studs yet, but I know one very smoochy boy who almost attacked his owner.

Once the situation was over, he was back to being smoochy. He acted on instinct and hormones, no reason to remove him from a breeding program for one incident.

Studs are not kept out of site, it’s just most owners here don’t like to live in pee soaked houses and it’s not practical to keep them loose in the house.
They are often housed so they can still see the family and are visited several times a day. Some do come inside when fitted with stud pants for visits.

From what I've seen online stud enclosures here are much larger than those I've seen in the US, many breeders have almost another house built on their property for the cats.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by GoldenKitty45

He just said this was normal for male Brits.

Oh yeah, as we all know Brits are very famous for being aggressive and dangerous breed..

(kidding..)

My males (Brits and a Foldie) haven't been spraying. One male did for a while but stopped doing it. My boys are 3 and 1,5 years old so maybe they will start later.. But of course no one wants to live in cat pee, so if a male does it a lot, he usually ends up having just one or two litters and will be neutered and continues to live as a family member as he did before the neutering.

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I wasn't aware that there was any approved form of birth control for cats in the USA. I know there is a product in Europe that some breeders have used here, but there have been reports of sterility after it's use.
What was it that you used?

Depo-Provera, sent you a PM

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

This seriously sounds very very wrong to me. What are the studs for you if not pets? Are they just some objects you use and then what? That's just horrible.
The breeders over here never cage their studs or keep them anywhere 'out of sight'. I've never heard of anyone being attacked by a stud, no matter what breed we are talking about. I can see that happening with an isolated stud who isn't that familiar with it's owner (because of being isolated), but that sounds very disturbing to me and that something must be wrong! I wouldn't use an aggressive stud in a breeding program. Is that really normal to you?!

My studs are my pets, my much loved family members. It just sounds very sad to me that apparently in other side of the world they are just 'studs'.

Wait, I didn't get any of that from Mirex's posts. Studs are not pets because they do not act like pets. That doesn't mean we breeders do not love them and we treat them as commodities, but we also can't afford to treat them like pets either.

It's great that you have the luxury of implants that let your cats live like pets. I do not think those implants are available here, and to be frank, the thought of them makes me very squeamish so even if they were I'm not sure I'd use them myself.

I bet we all think of our studs with much love and affection, but we can't expect them to behave in the same way as a neuter. We just can't. My stud lives in my bedroom with me. I adore him, he adores me. He gets to live in my bedroom because he does not spray where he sleeps. Thank goodness! I think of him as my pet first, but I know that he has certain studly habits that he just can't help. He will call if aroused. He will grab the necks of anything that doesn't smell like a boy. And if they don't fight, he'll try to breed. He tends to pee on anything that smells like another male. And even though he's my baby, I know he has the potential to fight another male in order to protect what is 'his' That doesn't mean he has a bad temperament. This cat sleeps cuddled in my arms at night! He's just a male cat, and he's doing what nature has hardwired him to do in order to keep the feline species going. I would never let my darling run loose with the girls. I love him, but I sure as heck don't trust him!!!

 

[skewch]

Wow, I've missed alot lately. The only thing I wanted to add to the recent conversation was that my boy does not spray or urinate anywhere in the house. There are many ways in which we may control breedings, one of which will come to fruition once my son moves out next month.

Monty has NEVER ever tried to protect what he thinks is his by attacking anyone or any other cat.

I will never treat him as anything other than my beloved pet. We just love him so much. Yes, he's my breeder, but if that happens to end at some point, he will forever be ours.

I don't like any type of cage, even though I'm using double and triple show cages to house my two new litters. I even don't like doing this, but it's the way it is for now until Maddie's babies are ready for their new homes.

 

[northernglow]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

Studs are not pets because they do not act like pets. That doesn't mean we breeders do not love them and we treat them as commodities, but we also can't afford to treat them like pets either.

It's great that you have the luxury of implants that let your cats live like pets. I do not think those implants are available here, and to be frank, the thought of them makes me very squeamish so even if they were I'm not sure I'd used them myself.

I'm not sure what you mean with "they do not act like pets". The only difference with my neutered and unneutered males is that the unneutered will call and try to mate a female in heat and acts just fine when there aren't one around, and the neutered male just does his 'thing' when he's trying to show his dominant side. And of course you'll notice the difference if you look under their tails..

Other than that they are just the same. I'm not saying this is the case with everyone but for me it's like that.

As I said, my cats got their 'luxury implants' on November. The other male had 2 litters before he got the implant, so he surely was fully working and living as a pet at the same time before that. These implants are new here but have been used for years in other countries (and was developed in Australia). Of course I was a bit hesitant about them at first, but I have not heard anything negative about them like fertility-issues afterwards, any damage to offsprings etc. so I decided to try. I asked around from breeders (from different countries) who had been using them and no one had had any problems.

I just got the image that studs are just objects used for business and after that you get rid of them so you can have new ones and do it again. And the studs get to start their 'normal' lives as a proper members of the family (with someone else) after their 'career' is over. Apologies if I got it wrong or if I'm 'over-reacting' because it's normal over there. I guess I just have to get used to the idea.

 

[sohni]

All I can say is that those of you who have males running free in your houses, you are darn lucky to not have a male who sprays. One spray from my male and my house is almost unliveable. I can't keep him in stud pants 24/7 so he lives in a huge enclosure downstairs. He comes out to visit often, with his pants on, or I spend time with him in his pen. My DLH also lives with him part time to keep him company.

My male is amazingly fast in his spraying habit. I have tried to just 'watch' him, but he can whip around and spray the couch, wall or bookshelf in an instant. Otherwise he is a sweet cat, but I do agree, he can switch into stud mode very quickly. My sister's diabetic cat lived here a few weeks once and she escaped me to run downstairs. Tsekani saw her and attacked the side of his enclosure trying to get to her. I think she smelled wrong because of her sickness and maybe he thought she was a male. I have never seen him so angry and aggressive.

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

I just got the image that studs are just objects used for business and after that you get rid of them so you can have new ones and do it again. And the studs get to start their 'normal' lives as a proper members of the family (with someone else) after their 'career' is over. Apologies if I got it wrong or if I'm 'over-reacting' because it's normal over there. I guess I just have to get used to the idea.

I think you could easily make that argument against breeders who pet out their retired girls. We can't realistically keep every cat we ever use in our breeding program. It's not fair to the cats if we breeders allow the number of animals in our homes to get to a level where we see signs that they are stressed. And when breeders can only care for a finite number of feline souls, then obviously the neuters and spays will have to be first on the list to go if the breeder wants to continue with their breeding program. It doesn't mean that we're heartless fiends who see our cats as objects to be used and discarded. It's quite the opposite; it means that we love and treasure our cats and want them to have a life where they are someone's one and only precious baby. I've cried for days after petting out a cat I loved. I dred the day when I might have to let some of my current cats go. Part of being a breeder is making these hard choices.

And I think Sohni answered the part about studs not being pets quite completely. I too have lived with such a stud. . .

 

[skewch]

I know if my boy starts acting as some have pointed out that theirs have, then he will live in my son's bedroom after he moves out. But, up until that time, he will live amongst the rest of the cats and with us freely.

 

[mews2much]

One of my mentors males sprayed her sewing room.
It was so bad she had to have the room redone.
When I was a kid we had a 2 whole males and omg they sprayed everything.

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by skewch

I know if my boy starts acting as some have pointed out that theirs have, then he will live in my son's bedroom after he moves out. But, up until that time, he will live amongst the rest of the cats and with us freely.

He will breed your girls again, and they might not be ready to have another litter. You're risking quite a lot here! Cats are induced ovulators. They do not have to be in heat to get pregnant. Being in heat just makes it easier for the boys to breed them.

I wish I could let my PB live with the girls, but I don't. I don't need him giving me mother x son or brother x sister litters. Male cats do not see them as family; they see them as females to breed. I don't even let him out among our 5 month old kittens. Why? Because he will try to breed them, and I do not want them to get pregnant. Males can be kept isolated from the females without sacrificing their comfort. PB gets run-around time every day, but only once the girls have been placed out of reach.

I think we've all warned you enough. Just be prepared for some unwanted kittens. . .

 

[northernglow]

I know things are a lot different over there, as (if I've understood correctly) people make a living out of the breeding. Here we just have very small catteries and as you can imagine, we can't keep cats in outside enclosures or 'houses' because of the weather, the temperature can easily be around -20 F during the winter so you really would have to build a proper house for the cats to be in which obviously means you should have large yard and get a permission to build another house on your property, and even then it would be hard to keep company to all of the cats equally because some of them live in that different house.

I must agree with everyone saying it's a bad idea to keep a stud around the females freely unless there is somekind of protection used. In my case the boys are techically sterile at the moment so I don't have a problem with that, and my female hasn't started her heat cycling yet. But even if somehow an accident would happen, the litter would be accepted and not inbred (and no bloodtype issues), no matter which one of the boys would get her.

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by NorthernGlow

I know things are a lot different over there, as (if I've understood correctly) people make a living out of the breeding.

I don't know anybody that makes a living out of breeding!! Most breeders have small programs and treat breeding as a hobby. If a breeder shows, then any and all profits are out the door as showing is a huge expense in itself. I know I'm not quitting my day job any time soon

Breeders here breed because they love the breed that captured their heart, and they want to share that breed with the world.

I think this is a gross misunderstanding, and the way people keep cats in the US and Europe are more similar than not. I'd love to know where you've developed your perceptions of American breeders. We do NOT treat our cats as breeding machines to be used and discarded in search of the almighty profit.

 

[sohni]

I wish there were a profit

Heck, I'd be happy with breaking even. I breed because I love my chosen breed and I show because I want to educate myself and others about this wonderful cat.

 

[goldenkitty45]

The biggest problem other then litters too close together is that a male can and will breed any time he chooses. This can cause serious problems with females if they release two sets of eggs at different times - part of the kittens will be aborted or borrn too soon and die.

I learned that the hard way with my stud - he was a good boy and never sprayed, but apparently he was breeding my female more then I thought and she had complications with a kitten being born too soon! So they had to be kept separated and not run together!