Two new litters within 3 days!!

[skewch]

Hi guys!

I've been terribly busy having delivered these two litters. Bonnie went into labour and delivered 3 babies on Saturday/Sunday morning (past midnight). She is my Devon/Sphynx cross. She had 2 sphynx and one that may be a Devon, we'll have to wait and see. It has a bit of hair.

Then Monday night as I lay in bed. Molly is under the covers with me, I'm loving her up etc, and I feel contractions. She was moved into my sewing room with me to deliver. She had 5 babies. I went to our bed to go to sleep after that, as it's 5am.

Switched Bonnie's litter with Molly's so that Molly's kittens receive some antibodies/immunity from Bonnie for those first 24 hours. Also, so I don't need to feed every two hours.

Go to check on Molly's kittens later in the afternoon, and my daughter tells me that there is 4 babies with Molly. I just thought she wasn't seeing correctly and said "nooo". Then I look and low and behold, there's another kitten. So, Molly delivered six healthy babies. I've never seen a cat deliver a kitten after 12hrs of not, thinking she's done.

I have pics, well hubby does, and I'll post some this afternoon for all to see. Some very very nice colors and interesting patterns. Hubby just posted a group shot of Molly's babies on our website if you want to see. Bonnie's will be up soon.
www.snowbalds.com

 

[GoldyCat]

Very cute. Congratulations on all the healthy babies. I'm a little confused, though. You said Bonnie had 3 kittens, but there are 4 in the picture. Does one of them belong to Molly?

 

[mbjerkness]

Wow you have had a few busy days.

congratulations

 

[mews2much]

Congrats on the kittens.
I have seen kittens born 2 days after the others were born many times.

 

[ferriscat]

Didn't Molly just have a litter in early March????? It's not even been 3 months since she last gave birth. . .

You might want to give her a decent break after this litter. The birthing process is hard on a cat, and the ideal waiting period is three months after birth and an additional month for every kitten raised to weaning age.

 

[mews2much]

I was wondering the same thing.

 

[GoldyCat]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

Didn't Molly just have a litter in early March????? It's not even been 3 months since she last gave birth. . .

You might want to give her a decent break after this litter. The birthing process is hard on a cat, and the ideal waiting period is three months after birth and an additional month for every kitten raised to weaning age.

I think Oreo and Maddie are the ones who had kittens earlier this year.

 

[missymotus]

Surely the kittens can't be either Sphynx or Devons, they've got to be Sphynx generation xx or Devon generation xx.

Ferris....very late Feb (just a couple of days before March)
http://www.thecatsite.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=212783

 

[ferriscat]

You're right Missymotus, I thought I remembered things correctly. Molly had her first litter on March 4th and her second on May 17th. 77 days between deliveries!!!

I've had girls whose pregnancies last just about as long (71 days. . .)

Skewch, you need to give your girls much more time to recover between deliveries. It does not matter if there are one or ten in a litter, a birth is hard on a girl and she needs to recover the strength and muscle tone in her uterus before you can expect her to have to go through labor again. You are very fortunate that she was able to deliver that last kitten. It could have ended very badly for the mommy and babies. The lag between kittens is a clear sign of uterine inertia, and I think a rest before her second litter would have helped a lot. That lag also means she is going to need a break before you breed her again. You do not want to breed a girl on her first heat after having delivered. You risk mommies and babies when you run a cattery like that.

 

[goldenkitty45]

I agree - WAY too close in litters. That means she was bred again when nursing the first litter. Breeders will give their females about 6 months before they even BREED them - which gives you a good 8 or 8 1/2 months between the litters.

 

[skewch]

Ok, just wanted to clear things up here. Remember, Molly had one baby her first time. He died at 4 days old. I tried keeping Monty from breeding her, but with two kids in the house who don't know how to listen, they let him upstairs and he managed to get her. My vet was made aware of it, he said it would be ok because she is very healthy.

I know about good breeding practices. I know they need time in between to regain lost weight and nutrients from pregnancy and nursing. I'm getting the feeling that some persons may think I'm the most absent-minded person around and that I shouldn't be breeding. I'm sorry but, that's not the impression I wanted to portray, nor is it at all true.

I've got a plan now in place for when Monty wants to breed but won't be able to. I am going to rub a dab of Bitter Apple on their necks and bottom. He hates the smell of it. I can't keep him locked up for 6 months, I will never cage my cats.

Now, I'm sure I will get some upset comments about the Bitter Apple due to it's contents (isopropanol), but it's not like they're going to be soaked in it. It's a couple dabs of it.

 

[skewch]

Oh, and I have pictures to prove that Bonnie's babies ARE sphynx. What else do you call a bald cat??? The kittens are sold with the owners KNOWING they are crosses. Now, with Bonnie being 50% sphynx and breeding with Monty who is 100%, there is no question they are sphynx.

I will post pics later this afternoon.

 

[goldenkitty45]

We are sorry of jumping on you. I understand now - breeders will sometimes do close breedings if ONE kitten is born (like in your case). Guess we were thinking it was a normal litter.

While you say you don't want to lock up Monty (being a stud); sooner or later you will have to face that. Part of owning breeding males. Some breeders are lucky to have an entire room that the boy can live in. But he really cannot be running around in the house unless you lock up the girls (unspayed).

Either way - breeding cats will have to be caged at some point in time - not be running together.

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by skewch

Ok, just wanted to clear things up here. Remember, Molly had one baby her first time. He died at 4 days old. I tried keeping Monty from breeding her, but with two kids in the house who don't know how to listen, they let him upstairs and he managed to get her. My vet was made aware of it, he said it would be ok because she is very healthy.

No excuse, IMO. It doesn't matter if she did not have to nurse the kitten, she still had go though labor and delivery and THAT is what weakens the uterus. Most vets do not know much about animal husbandry. Afterall, they are in the business of spaying and neutering pets to prevent unwanted births. Sure, she was young and delivered the litter without too much complication, but for her sake you cannot allow this to happen again.

If you are going to be a successful breeder, your family also needs to follow the procedures that keep your cattery running safely and smoothly.

I know about good breeding practices. I know they need time in between to regain lost weight and nutrients from pregnancy and nursing. I'm getting the feeling that some persons may think I'm the most absent-minded person around and that I shouldn't be breeding. I'm sorry but, that's not the impression I wanted to portray, nor is it at all true.

It's not just about regaining lost weight and nutrients, it's about rebuilding muscle tone and condition. If the uterus is weakened, then the contractions will not be strong enough to push the kittens out. Kittens can get stuck in the birth canal and die. Mommies can develop infections from retained kittens and placentas and die. Do you see where I am going with this???

I've got a plan now in place for when Monty wants to breed but won't be able to. I am going to rub a dab of Bitter Apple on their necks and bottom. He hates the smell of it. I can't keep him locked up for 6 months, I will never cage my cats.

I don't think that the bitter apple will be enough to dissuade a determined stud. You do realize they are hard wired to breed? He might hate the smell of it, but is it worth the risk to see if he hates the smell of bitter apple more than he loves to breed? I wouldn't trust a stud to not breed. You need at least two doors between any boy and the breeding queens. That is the only thing that will prevent 'accidental' breedings.

As for never caging your cats. . . you don't need to cage Monty, but you must not let him have access to the girls! Stud males do not make good pets because of their studly habits. At worst they spray, they mate anything that doesn't smell like another male, and whatever they don't mate they fight. There is nothing you can do about these behaviors. You cannot treat Monty like a normal pet because he is NOT a normal pet.

 

[mews2much]

My new boy has been sucking his nipple and we tried bitter apple on him to stop him from sucking.
He did not like the smell of it and it still did not stop him from doing it.
It had no effect on him at all.
It will not stop Monty from mating her.
Also I have friends that are breeders and whole males will spray.
Monty may start doing that soon.
They will do anything to get to the girls.

 

[missymotus]

Originally Posted by skewch

I tried keeping Monty from breeding her, but with two kids in the house who don't know how to listen, they let him upstairs and he managed to get her.

Then perhaps now is not the time for you to be breeding, I know breeders who left for 15-20yrs to raise a family then go back to breeding because they wanted to do it right.

Bitter apple to stop a boy mating, I cannot believe I'm reading that

 

[northernglow]

I also have an unspayed female and two unneutered males running free in the house. The boys have Suprelorin-implants so they can't (and don't want to) get her pregnant at the moment. During the nights and when I'm not home the boys are in different room and the female is with my neutered male in another room, just in case.

I don't know if you have Suprelorin available over there, but it sure has worked for us. The boys got their implants on November, they are said to be good for approx. a year or even year and a half which is good for me. They can also be removed earlier if needed and the male will be able to breed very soon after that.

OT rant: Now that my breeding plans were flushed down the toilet (my point stud I was going to use had to be suddenly pts because of cancer, he wasn't wearing the implant and was living elsewhere), I need to re-think everything. I'm propably going to use one of the two boys I have here (not colorpoints), unless a miracle happens and a pointed male appears out of nowhere and I can use him (we don't have any unneutered point BSHs in this country anymore)... Sigh.

 

[kai bengals]

Originally Posted by FerrisCat

The birthing process is hard on a cat, and the ideal waiting period is three months after birth and an additional month for every kitten raised to weaning age.

I'm really interested in exactly who determined this. So basically you're saying to wait nearly a year from birth if the litter consisted of 8 kittens.

That's actually dangerous for some breeds of cats, especially for those queens who go into heat when the kittens are being weaned and continue to have heat after heat without being bred.

It's pretty easy to keep queens healthy and robust during the nursing process. Feeding them as much high quality food as they can consume and keeping them off of the grain filled dry food that just fills them up and has low nutritional value. A good raw diet will keep queens at their normal weight all the way up to weaning. We've rarely had a queen drop weight, even with large litters. They just eat more.

 

[ferriscat]

Originally Posted by Kai Bengals

I'm really interested in exactly who determined this. So basically you're saying to wait nearly a year from birth if the litter consisted of 8 kittens.

A well known breeder and judge frequently posts this advice on his forum on allexperts.com. Not sure if list rules would allow me to cross post, but a little bit of searching should pull it up for you. The key word is 'ideal.' Not always. Every queen is different and of course this can't apply to every situation, but the important thing is that we as breeders always put the needs of our cats first. You do not breed on the first heat cycle after delivery. Nothing justifies 77 days between litters.

I once had a litter of 9 out of a queen who cycled constantly. Re-breeding her was not an option, as she began cycling when the kittens were 6 weeks old. I elected to have my vet give her a form a birth control that would last 6 months so that she could recover from the delivery without risking a Pyo. My vet is also a breeder and he does the same with his own

She went on to have a litter of 5.

 

[mirex]

I have read through this whole thread and found some things worrying!

Firstly, as a Devon Rex breeder, I know that these kitten cannot be Sphynx or Devons.. They can only be 'hybrids' of either breed. Even if you are allowed to use Devons as an allowable outcross the resulting kittens would be Sphynx gen 1 or Devon Rex gen 1. Either must then be mated to a 'pure' cat from the same breed and the resulting kittens will be gen 2. Generally, following this process, Gen 4 is then considered to be pure to the breed.

Secondly, breeding a queen straight back after having 1 kitten that did not survive it not a huge NO NO but your reasons for doing this must be very solid and the health of the queen is paramount!

That brings me to housing a stud cat... Studs are studs and not pets.. In some of the more gentle breeds you may find a very placid stud but with Devons or Sphynx you have a highly active, demanding breed who have a tendency to think it is all about them no matter how fantastic their temperament is..
Consider this.. A child or even a teenager holding a mature stud cat and it is mellow and happy having some cuddles... Then some queen starts up calling and the hormones on the stud start to kick in and suddenly he has something he is 'programmed' to do on his mind and he then wants to get down.. The child or teenager doesn't 'read' the signs and holds onto the stud.. The stud gets upset and struggles more, the kid holds tighter... See where I am going with this???
Eventually, the stud is going to attack the child because it HAS to get to that queen.. All his hormones are screaming at him and no matter how good his temperament is, hormones RULE a mature stud cat!

Well there you go, my first post! LOL

Sarah
Mirex Devon Rex