Trapping for 2nd time?

[tigerclaw]

Ah, that's sweet. Batman is going to be a real buddy. It's funny how a stray or feral cat changes so much when they come into our environment and it takes them so long to adjust. I guess it would be like us walking in a jungle not knowing what could kill us or what would be dropping out of a tree from above like a 20' snake. Looks like Patches is slowly getting used to her environment and has a buddy to help her.

 

[killerapple]

I was a little worried about Patches yesterday. She seemed extremely scared yesterday - more so than usual - and she was breathing pretty hard, looking stressed out. I could hear it. When she got her exam recently, they did mention some fluid in her lungs / some wheeziness - which they said was stress related, but it made me wonder if she has an underlying condition... Next time I get her into the vet, I want to bring this up again and see if they can run tests and see if she has asthma or what not.

That said, I also wondered if maybe I caught her at bad times. Daylight savings time has affected things. It screwed up her feeding schedule in the fall before we trapped her. I probably get in her room too early yesterday or whatever with the sunlight. In the evening, I went in with Batman and she was really sleepy looking. Batman picked up on it, mostly left her alone. Gave her some licks then would leave. She then just put her head down on her front paws and closed her eyes. Later he tried to play with her - and I swear I think he even tried to nurse on her (!) and she got mad, woke up, looked more alert. Got Batman out and tried some one on one playtime with her. I'm wondering now though if she enjoys this or just fears the toy, because I heard her growling at it. She will grab it, she'll chew on it, etc but I did hear some growling. I guess it's hard to say. I do back off if she looks scared but she had that 'into it' cat look on her.

So last night, she wasn't at the door or anything and Batman hung out with us (instead of sleeping by her door). But this morning, she was back to being by the door when we were up. She watched my husband pet Batman for a while. When I went in to feed her, she had moved to box and she ate the treats with me there and sat upright afterwards. Looked much better today.

So I don't know what was going on yesterday, but it had me concerned. I hope it was just a 'bad day' and that she's doing ok.

Batman and Patches are still working things out as far as how much play she tolerates. I was thinking that since she's making improvements with me, that it may be beneficial to keep her isolated for a while longer instead of opening the door up for her to explore the house. And I'm not sure she's ready for 24/7 Batman.

I guess it's kind of a hard call but I'm going to go with my gut and hold off for a while.

 

[ldg]

I haven't been around much - but WOW things have changed!

I don't know what was up yesterday, but as her behavior is in the process of changing, as long as she's eating and peeing/pooping OK, I'd just keep an eye on her.

I have a horrible internet connection right now so I'm not gonna try to load the video - but I can't wait! How wonderful of you to do that for us!

And YOU FOUND A FOOD she likes!

And she IS still eating treats with you there!

...as to the growling while playing... one of our kitties does that. It's part of the play - hissing and growling just go with the preying/hunting for him. He'll growl at the toy, grab it, let it go, chase it again and hiss at it...

 

[tigerclaw]

Hah, growling/hissing at toys? that's a new won for me. Toy aggression, WOW! Patches is going to have a very interesting by fun personality when she comes completely out of her shell.

Leaving Patches out in the rest of the house will probably find her hiding under the coach and any other furniture around including beds. When I brought Tiger in the house after taming him in the back yard for four months, he spent the first couple weeks in and under everything. He even climbed into the cloth drier from the back that I had to block off. It wasn't in the drum but under it but a place that he could get in trouble.

A little warning about furniture. I would get a hammer and tip each piece of furniture on it's side and feel for metal staples sticking out and pound them flat. When they put the fabric on the furniture they use these staple guns and i've found several metal staples sticking out that can cause a nasty scratch or cut. Even the cheapy cloth they use on the bottom to cover the springs gets holes in it and if the cat see the hole/rip she will climb inside and get into the springs. Just something to check.

Sounds like Patches is doing great. So long as she is moving in a positive direction that's real good.

 

[killerapple]

Alright, so I'm trying to figure out this playing/fighting thing, as I really don't like what I see. Patches isn't happy, ears back, tail big, on her side with belly exposed, growling, will kick back/nip at Batman but he just keeps going back for more.. I feel SO BAD for Patches.

So I'm trying to decide if they're playing or fighting. Been looking at YouTube videos.

Batman's stance looks just like the calico at start of video, before the calico dives in. (Up in that position, tail swishing, etc.) When he dives for her, it's no where near as forceful as these 2, but he still dives nonetheless.

If you go to :17, the one on its side matches Patches stance - except her paw isn't out, and her ears are back, and her tail is sometimes puffy and ticked off/flickering (while Batman's is swishing).

Batman is silent. Patches does a low growl after he's started diving. She also did one of those weird spat/meow sounds, the kind in this video: They do not swat like this!! This video is worse than them. It is basically Batman diving in, going for a neck bite, flopping down, some nipping going on, then he'll back off - then they'll stare down, his tail swishing - then he'll go again. I should film it and see what you guys think.

I am familiar with the site that shows the cat tail/ears expressions, but man, I wish there was one showing fighting vs. playing!

Maybe there is and I just haven't seen it.

Anyways, any feedback about this would be appreciated!

 

[killerapple]

Originally Posted by LDG

I haven't been around much - but WOW things have changed!

And YOU FOUND A FOOD she likes!

And she IS still eating treats with you there!

...as to the growling while playing... one of our kitties does that. It's part of the play - hissing and growling just go with the preying/hunting for him. He'll growl at the toy, grab it, let it go, chase it again and hiss at it...

Yeah, it was a big week for her!! I'm glad you think the hissing at her toy isn't her being scared of it. Her eyes don't look scared, but it threw me off.

It's so cool to play with her. I love it when she gets really into it and forgets I'm there.

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Leaving Patches out in the rest of the house will probably find her hiding under the coach and any other furniture around including beds.

A little warning about furniture. I would get a hammer and tip each piece of furniture on it's side and feel for metal staples sticking out and pound them flat. When they put the fabric on the furniture they use these staple guns and i've found several metal staples sticking out that can cause a nasty scratch or cut. Even the cheapy cloth they use on the bottom to cover the springs gets holes in it and if the cat see the hole/rip she will climb inside and get into the springs.

Thanks for the tip about the furniture! We got new couches this past year and I had read about that before, but we never bothered to check - we should. Batman can barely dive under one of them - the others he can't get under - so I think she could only get under the one. No beds for her to get under. I think it'll be a while longer before we let her out. I want Batman to learn some manners and I'm hoping to get a little more progress with her in the room, I think.

 

[ldg]

The behavior you describe now - with the diving, puffy tail, growling, ears back - that sounds more like now that they've said their "hello's" they're figuring out who's who dominance-wise and Batman's figuring out how far he can push.

If I'm right, the way I see it is the good news is that Patches isn't just cowering and taking it - she's got some spunk!

 

[killerapple]

Batman was actually polite tonight with Patches!

I went about things different. As soon as I let Batman in her room, I got out the treats and gave him one. Put one down for her, but go figure, he gobbled it up first. He did go to her and licked her (she's going to give him a hairball!), and started trying to get her to react, but I would distract again with a treat or a toy, and it was pretty peaceful. No play fighting, so Patches never got upset and he was pretty happy just hanging out and having my attention (and more treats than usual...)

Maybe he was getting jealous of her too for some reason? Seeing me go in there feeding her when he's not allowed in? So I'll keep trying to give him treats and extra attention in her room and see if that helps. But like you said Laurie, he probably is testing her limits as well. I just feel so bad for her, getting picked on her by son!

At least she's sweet and not being aggressive back with him.

One day at a time.

 

[ldg]

It is really possible he was a little jealous, and the extra attention in front of her and in her room was just what he needs.

Didn't even think of that, but the diversion certainly worked!

 

[tigerclaw]

Looks to me the first vid is adult play. The cats we had for 19 years played like that and they would reverse roles.

The second vid is kitten play and the third vid is getting into the realm of a cat fight with the swatting fast and hard. Leaning to dominance. The third I think would be a little too intense for your two. I'd break that one up if it were my two.

 

[killerapple]

Good to know! Yeah, that fast swatting in that 3rd video was very intense!! Patches & Batman are not like that at all. She's so passive. And Batman is no where near that intensity, thank God.

I'm getting better at reading her to know when she's scared or when she's sleepy or when she seems curious and in a mood where I can play with her or get closer. So this morning when I was giving her treats, I lowered my hand and moved it a bit closer to her as I went down, since she was in the middle of the box, not pushed back into the back. She again moved her head closer to me to sniff the treats - and her nose got less than 1 cm away from my finger tips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! This is the second time she's come really close to me to sniff my hand. So cool.

Again, I'll only put the treats down moving close to her if I sense it's ok with her. If she seems scared, I will just drop them down a couple feet away from her and go about my business.

Go Patches!

 

[killerapple]

Another good Batman/Patches night. No growling from her. No rough playing. Spoiled Batman with some treats and play as soon as he got in the room, so when he went in to see her, he gave her some licks, then would come out and play with me. He did try to initiate some play with her eventually but it was not the darting type, and no swishy tails. Just a couple seconds of him trying to play, then leaving and going for a toy, or laying down, etc.

She really enjoyed the wand toy tonight. It was the most into it I've seen her - she really forgot I was there for a few minutes!

I'm still not 100% comfortable with letting Batman alone with her in case they start playing/fighting rough again. Will just play it by ear, but I'm very pleased with tonight!

 

[tigerclaw]

Sound like there playing real good together. Personally, I wouldn't look into too much with the swishing tail. To me that's just a little excitement. Tiger swishes his tail when I rub his back or play with him. With Tabby I always watched his eyes and ears. If the ears start to go back too much or the eyes began to dilate then I would back off. I think it's a sign of fear or uncertainty.

When I would play with Tabby when he was setting in front of his hide box I would get the stick with the feather on the end. I would move it in a jerking motion in front of him just outside the screen and he would follow it. But as soon as the feathers got out of site around the edge of the hide box his eyes would dilate then come into site and they would constrict. I could do that several time and his eyes did the same thing. Out of site to me meant he was a little concern or unsure of his surroundings and a little fear crept in.

With both the cats I always had a lot of fun watching them play with their favorite soft mouse toys with fresh catnip rubbed on them. Talk about rolling around, licking, batting the toy around always made me laugh. I think they actually get a high on catnip. Depending on the cat they can get a little aggressive if you try to take the catnip toy away if they aren't done with it yet.

I'm hearing all good vibes. Keep up the good playtime and interaction between your two kitty's.

 

[ldg]

Oh sweetie, that's great news!

Sounds like you're really getting how to help the interaction go well down pat - and she sounds like she's really starting to let go of some of those trust issues!

 

[killerapple]

I'm finally figuring it out

Batman was a little bit of a brat yesterday but it wasn't tooooo bad.

But BOY I wish I filmed them last night. I don't know what the heck they were up to, but I heard some of her toys with balls rolling around late at night and heard Batman running up and down the stairs. Then this morning, she had carried FOUR of her toys to the screen door. Her towels that drape over the coffee table were pushed off and moved about 10 feet away.

She was just sitting pretty in the box like 'what?'

She ate a treat about 3 feet away from me yesterday. I had made a slight path so if she went for more, she'd have to move closer to me (kinda like I did outside with her kibble). She just stared down the next treat for a few minutes. She's definitely feeling more comfortable - I was watching her eat the treats this morning and I walked by very close to her and she still continued to eat - didn't move her head up to watch me.

Batman was relaxing, sprawled out on his towels by her door this morning. A couple times I had to walk by and Patches was right at the door with him, so she'd scuttle away from me. She keeps her body pretty low still, but her belly isn't as glued to the floor when she scuttles away now. She'll sometimes poke her head out of the box at night or morning and watch me go by.

She definitely enjoys Batman since she hangs out with him by the screen and brings him presents, and he's sooo happy to go in there and see her.

I'm thinking of soon putting a litter box with his type of litter in there and letting him hang in there for maybe a longer period, like 30 minutes unsupervised. I'm thinking I should do that at a time when I know they are both pretty active and want to play OR exactly the opposite - when he's more sleepy so he doesn't really over do it with the play. It'd be nice for her to be out of her box when they interact so she's not as 'cornered'.

Thanks for reading!

 

[momofmany]

Originally Posted by tigerclaw

Looks to me the first vid is adult play. The cats we had for 19 years played like that and they would reverse roles.

The second vid is kitten play and the third vid is getting into the realm of a cat fight with the swatting fast and hard. Leaning to dominance. The third I think would be a little too intense for your two. I'd break that one up if it were my two.

I agree - mine play like the first video all the time, particularly Scarlett (in the calico role). She dives even harder than this video and only does this with the male cats whom she likes. If she doesn't like someone, she swats them away if they come too close.

Can't always judge kitten play as it's what they do to train as adults.

Third one is a dominance interaction. They are most likely both males and the white cat clearly one. If the other cat had not given in, it might have escalated to an actual fight, which is far more extreme that this.

 

[killerapple]

Very cool, thank you both for your analysis!! That is so hopeful. It definitely eases my worry of knowing what is play and what it not. Having not really seen a lot of cat interaction other than my parents' sister cats chasing each other at night or seeing Batman playing with his baby brothers when they were 3 months old, it's hard to understand. I'm glad to know that what looks intense to me is normal cat play/boundary/dominance establishing.

That said, they are doing good then.

I think they overall are really liking each other. Patches will close her eyes and let Batman lick her head and lightly nip at her. She doesn't react irritated until he starts nipping her belly or diving.

I swear I thought he was trying to nurse last week. She's a very patient tolerable girl. I feel very lucky for how sweet she is. And for Batman being so excited to have another kitty friend!

 

[killerapple]

Patches was by screen door at midnight. Batman was in a purry mood, so I was petting him and he was walking all around me happy as could be and she was able to watch. I think she was looking with a lot of interest, wondering why he was sooo happy and rubbing up on me. Then maybe 10 minutes later, she sits up, does a loooooooooooooooooong stretch and walks to the box. Definitely less of that low-to-floor walk and she must've felt content enough to actually stretch with me watching rather than just running away.

 

[ldg]

Oh that is GREAT! You might want to take a jump back about 10 pages or so.... and your heart'll just melt at HOW FAR she's come! So many barriers have come down!

 

[killerapple]

It's so cool! 2 months ago was no playing with toys, no eating in front of me. If she'd be out with me in room, she'd smush herself to floor as low as possible when sulking away. Now she's usually eating her treats with me there, playing WITH me sometimes, and she's also finally eating a decent amount of food in general!

I'll have to get some pictures of her sometime too to show that she looks different now. She's starting to look more like a cat sitting in a box sometimes than a scaredy cat hiding in the back of a box, if that makes sense.