The well-known problem of IBD or lymphoma and pancreatitis

[cat pal]

Sorry to butt in here, but Stephen Q can you tell me the dose of pred your cat is on? My cat Vivian has been on 5 mg for IBD, since she biopsied negative for cancer (which still doesn't mean it's not cancer). The 5 mg has stopped working, we're going to the vet tomorrow and I'm considering asking for a higher dose of pred, or mixing pred with metronidazole. She didn't tolerate Leukeran.

thanks

Laura

 

[arinlars]

Samus I have a little scale too but I like your suggestion to weight the plate before and after .
Today I had to give her friskies. I know it is bad and gross etc but she didn't eat ! Now she is sleeping again and she was meat loafing. I think I'm starting Leukeran this is breaking my heart

 

[arinlars]

She is also doing a weird thing while she is eating she is licking her side lol

 

[goholistic]

It seems we're all riding the same train here. 

She is also doing a weird thing while she is eating she is licking her side lol

My Caesar does this! I had suspected his teeth. He doesn't have FORLs, but some gingivitis. Who knows. 

 

 

[arinlars]

Well I'm scared to put her under anesthesia for her teeth with ibd and all I have to think about it more.

 

[stephenq]

 
Sorry to butt in here, but Stephen Q can you tell me the dose of pred your cat is on? My cat Vivian has been on 5 mg for IBD, since she biopsied negative for cancer (which still doesn't mean it's not cancer). The 5 mg has stopped working, we're going to the vet tomorrow and I'm considering asking for a higher dose of pred, or mixing pred with metronidazole. She didn't tolerate Leukeran.

thanks

Laura

Sorry for the delay but without the "@" sign in front of my name i don't get notified that you were referencing me.  My cat Simon was on 5mg Pred a day and that worked along with other things for close to a year and a half.  Then things went bad and we did a bunch of stuff that didn't work and we lost him last Feb.

 

[stephenq]

Well I'm scared to put her under anesthesia for her teeth with ibd and all I have to think about it more.

I don't think there is any specific connection between anesthesia and IBD if your cat is otherwise healthy, and with no heart trouble and a good blood test prior.

 

[arinlars]

I'm really sad. Mimi eats a lot lately sadly she has diarrhea. Her 2 vets avoid me, because I call them like 1-2 times per month to ask them if they have any other idea what to do or to give her fluid or buy more medicine. Now they suggested put her down cause she has ibd?? I'm furious! She has lots of energy and eats but she looses weight . I'm heartbroken . I want to increase the prednisolone but no ones tells me if that's is ok. I'm playing tag with them cause they are too busy and I always get to talk to the assistants who they have no idea from meds or anything really. This is getting to long until I get an answer like months. Meanwhile Mimi is loosing weight . I'm in tears and heartbroken .

 

[myrnafaye]

I dont understand.  How much pred is she on?? Obi is on 5 mg, he is 17 and doing quite well at that dose.  Vets wont speak with you?  can you get a different vet?  I dont think calling once or twice a month is excessive; if it was once or twice a day, that would be excessive.  I also maintenance dose Obi once a week with 1/4 Cerenia, and if he vomits (almost never does) he will get Cerenia for 3-4 days then every other day, then every third day then once a week .  Also is on NV which I think is a great choice.  My understand ing of IBD is that it can often be episodic.  Keep us posted!

 

[arinlars]

Same here! 2.5 mg x 2 a day . Every other day cerenia and I give her nature's variety or pride by instinct (same brand) she loves it but it has fewer calories like 160 or so.

 

[arinlars]

I am going on Wednesday to another vet that is just for cats but they were kind of judgmental on the phone because I haven't been there since 2013 and that's because I moved areas and it's not convenient for us . Sigh.

 

[samus]

I'm sure they understand that giving a cat that's sick (with a possibly stress triggered condition) a long commute to get to a vet isn't really helpful..... I'm guessing they're the only cat only vet in the area?

 

[arinlars]

No, but that was weird. We will see what happens. Her original vet called me and prefer that Mimi is treated by her internist which she never calls me back . Oh well we will see next week. They promised she will call on Monday.
In the meantime is nutri Cal any good ? Did anyone had experience with it and nice results?

 

[goholistic]

I'm really sad. Mimi eats a lot lately sadly she has diarrhea. Her 2 vets avoid me, because I call them like 1-2 times per month to ask them if they have any other idea what to do or to give her fluid or buy more medicine. Now they suggested put her down cause she has ibd?? I'm furious! She has lots of energy and eats but she looses weight . I'm heartbroken . I want to increase the prednisolone but no ones tells me if that's is ok. I'm playing tag with them cause they are too busy and I always get to talk to the assistants who they have no idea from meds or anything really. This is getting to long until I get an answer like months. Meanwhile Mimi is loosing weight . I'm in tears and heartbroken .

Unfortunately, I can relate on all accounts. My local traditional vet is pretty much sick of me and my cats and no longer provides that top notch care (no more calling to see how their doing, no more calling me back quickly, no longer willing to hear about other things I'm doing, etc.), even though I've spent a considerable amount of money there and have a zero balance. She does say I take great care of my cats, so maybe she just trusts that I'm doing what needs to be done. I don't know. I guess my expectations are too high.  

Over the past 2.5 years, I've consulted with other vets...I've lost count...maybe 10 now. It is helpful to get other perspectives and thoughts on treatment. To sum it up....all the traditional vets had the same approach. The alternative/holistic/integrative vets had different approaches depending on their area of expertise (general holistic, Chinese medicine, homeopathic). Sebastian's treatment is a combination of them all. But I now primarily use the local traditional vet for medications, diagnostics, urgent visits, and a Chinese medicine vet who is out-of-state and does consults over the phone. She is great and has brought Sebastian back to life every time. I've also incorporated a few things on my own based on research and help from others in my situation.

When this started happening to Sebastian, I was told it was a part of the progression of his disease and that he most likely has lymphoma now. The intestines have become so compromised that absorption is severely affected, resulting in chronic diarrhea and weight loss, despite eating well (300+ calories a day). We ruled out EPI with blood tests and a trial run of both pancreatic enyzmes and high-dose plant enzymes. Has Mimi been tested for this recently? It would be the fTLI from TAMU. The "GI Panel 2" includes fPL, fTLI, folate, and cobalamin. We also tried increasing the prednisolone to 10 mg a day. No change. That's not to say it won't help other cats, but it didn't help us. He was slowly weaned back down to 5 mg a day over a couple months.

Sebastian is down to just a little over 9 pounds now. He should be 12-13 pounds, and was 16 pounds at his peak (though overweight). His stools are not, and never will be, "normal," but they are much improved with the regime he is on...nicely formed, but lighter in color, and the middle is the consistency of a 3 Musketeers[emoji]174[/emoji] candy bar.  

  He is content and eating and grooming and kneading and still doing all the things he likes to do. 

I've never used Nutri-Cal on Sebastian. Any gel-like, oily substance was off the table due to his soft stools.

Hang in there and good luck with the cat-only vet. I'm not on here every day, so PM or @mention me if you have questions for me and I'll get an email notification.

 

[myrnafaye]

Gosh, this stuff makes me sad to hear.  For one, veterinarians as well as doctors of human medicine should be able to be honest with their clients and patients and say, "This is all I am able to offer you; I know that you want the best for your(self or cat) but there are limits as to what I can do. Please stay in touch with me".  Or something like that.  I think it is hard for doctors and vets to hit the wall with not being able to do more.

Isnt there immodium for cats?  at least as a temp measure?  Yikes.

I had a very bad experience with a holistic vet years ago when I had a cat with really bad asthma.  She wanted me to take my kitty off pred; she said that her remedies were counter indicated with pred on board.  I tried and my beloved kitty got worse.  And she charged for every single phone call, even if it was to say my cat was in distress.  No thanks, that seemed like a racket to me.  Also I think it is irresponsible for any health care professional to treat over the phone.  Sorry, that is my opinion.  There is no substitute for hands and eyes on the patient.  

GoHolistic, have you tried that Science Diet AD that is for nursing a cat back to health?  I know its not a regular diet and SD may not be the best long term but maybe as a temp measure...for people, when we are ill with GI issues, there is the BRAT diet (bananas, rice, applesauce and toast) that is to rest the GI system.  I wonder what the equivalent is for cats.  Boiled chicken and rice, maybe?            

 

[goholistic]

You're certainly entitled to your opinion, myrnafaye, and I'm sorry you had such a bad experience.  

  It is typically our experiences that serve as a basis for our opinions. I tend not to dump all vets into one pot, however, and I would NEVER tell someone not to go to an in-person vet. I agree that everyone needs to have a place to physically go to. Like I said, I use both a local (in-person) vet (despite our differences) and someone with a different perspective who makes recommendations long distance (phone/email). Our local traditional vet was running out of solutions, so it's a integrative approach that I am very grateful for.

I think I've experienced all ends of the spectrum. I've had good and bad experiences from both local and remote vets, holistic and traditional. One local holistic vet we went to in person simply examined Sebastian and recommended an unbalanced raw diet for Sebastian to be used long term. (She thought it was balanced; I knew it wasn't.) Yikes!  

  Needless to say, we haven't been back there.

I'm sure there are irresponsible vets all over the place, even local/in-person ones. The Chinese medicine vet I use for phone consults requires that you're working closely with a local vet and requires recent lab results to be sent over. By law, she's not allowed to make a diagnosis, "treat", and prescribe medication. She can suggest and mail out Chinese herbs that work together with other treatments since they are not classified as a drug. She makes recommendations to discuss with our local vet that I may choose or not choose to follow (I send the local vet her notes). She discusses Chinese food therapy based on a pet's symptomatology. So while I understand where you're coming from, I just wanted to say that the woman I use long distance is far from irresponsible.

I used the Hill's a/d for Sebastian a long time ago when I had to syringe feed him, but probably wouldn't opt for that now because it contains guar gum (which he's allergic to). I think it's okay temporarily as long as the cat doesn't have a sensitivity to any of the ingredients. The last time Sebastian was sick with really bad diarrhea and anorexia a year ago, I was temporarily syringing him baby food and offering a low fat, plain meat canned food, like Tiki Cat's chicken or the tuna & mackeral blend (the plain ahi tuna is higher in fat) so that he gets some nutrients. Plain cooked meat (chicken, turkey) works okay, too, but only temporarily since it is not balanced and nutrients are needed for healing.

 

[myrnafaye]

Go, I am so sorry to hear.  Yes, I did not mean one should not seek alternatives, and my experience was many years ago, it may certainly be different now.  

How far are you both - Go and Arinlars - from a vet school?  is a visit possible?

 

[arinlars]

I agree with Myrna and GoHolistic, However we leave so much money to the vets, I expect courtesy. I have 1 more cat and if they want to keep me as a customer they should be nice to me. I understand, I can be overreacting but I am scared of my animal's health. I am terrified actually and they know stuff that I don't. If I knew I would not spend thousands on my Mimi. They know how to tamper the pred or give more meds, I only know the basics. Or when to give IV Fluids. Or the Leukeran. They told me they cannot give it because maybe she does not have cancer, but people in this forum they gave it to their IBD kitties and the cats are fine. 

Now, if they cannot do anything they still have to tell me that, not keep me in the dark, waiting for they phone call. They suggested putting my active cat down. Mimi has problems, I get it, but they are manageable. I asked for a feeding tube, they told me it's too much stress on the cat and she will die, but I read in this forum it could save her life and she will be better after. I asked for dental, same. So next step, I asked for the emergency fattening food so I can give her calories at least with syringe feeding. They told me oh that's not the best. Now I have to go to another vet which I know they will change me the double because they specialize in cats but I don't know them that well. 

Anyway. since the vets cannot answer this for me: How often and when should I syringe feed Mimi? She is 3.18 kg now (from 4kg)  somedays (especially when I am not there) she will gulp the food down. Sometimes she is hungry but she refuses to eat the food or any food. I have 3 syringes in 3 sizes. Should I feed her 1ml x 8 times per sitting? Is that enough?

Her poop is ok for now. Like GoHolistic's Sebastian.

 

[arinlars]

Vet school is close but I don't think they accept patients. It's the one in Seattle.

 

[myrnafaye]

I thought all vet schools took patients...ours here certainly does...good care, also.