Stop the introduction?

[Mouna]

Hi all,

I would like some advice on what to do. We've been through a lot and I spent the last hour crying, finally deciding to type this.

I hope somebody wants to take the time to read it. Our situation is as follows:

Mouna is our 11.5 year old cat. She means the world to me and I feel so guilty for the current situation. We lost our other cat Mila early 2020. They were not related and got along fine in the beginning. The last few years were filled with agression by Mila. We think something happened when we were not home. Nothing worked; we even hired a cat therapist.

We spent a full year thinking if we should add some cats to our household. We decided to give it a go because Mouna enjoyed Mila's company when times were good and she ignores cats that she sees outside our window.

We got 2 kittens of 7 months and followed the advice to see how they would react in the same room. So stupid of us because our plan was the slow introduction. We switched to that after a few hours and moved the kittens to basecamp.

One of the kittens was very shy so we moved slowly. After a few days we thought something was wrong. We spent the first two weeks going to vets and the hospital. It turns out he was seriously ill and he had to go back to the foster address to receive proper care. He cannot come back to us.

We only did scent swapping the first 2 weeks because of all this. That went fine (Mouna hissed twice and then slept on the pillow).

Week 3: we moved to feeding with the door closed. That went fine, so we used a baby gate. Also fine, even up close. Mouna does a lot for food

We moved to the play phase, but they can only be in the same room if Mouna is asleep. She does not play long periods, so we only had some succes with this. Food (puzzles) works better. When they are close, she starts hissing and sometimes growling. We intervene/distract in that case.

She follows the kitten, but it seems to be with the goal of intimidating or scaring. We stop the introduction when this happens. I have to admit we feel very defeated each time this happens, which probably does not help. My husband and I hardly have evenings together because they both need company.

The foster address say we need to let the current introduction play out and separating them is like starting over. I have to think of Mouna as well though so we do separate them sometimes.

This is week 4 and we are contemplating to stop trying. We have a few options:

- add a kitten and try again. The foster address is urging us to do this because the kitten needs company and I understand this due to the age conference. Better to bite the bullet now? We have an option for a meeting. No date yet due to quarantine. We have no idea how to best do this, since the kittens also don't know each other. If we keep her, she needs a friend.
- stop trying and go back to a 1-cat household.
- option we are missing?

If you made it to the end: thank you!

 

[ArtNJ]

Your trying to create the perfect process to get them from nothing to comfortable with each other without them needing to do any work. It doesn't usually work like that unless you are talking very young cats, and quite rarely when a senior cat is involved. The foster is right; you need to try and worry less and let things play out. As long as they dont actually fight, hissing, growling and stress on the senior cats part is consistent with progress. Progress might be very slow. It might be that in another two months, the senior cat, if it could talk, would still beg you to get rid of the kitten. But even though overall progress may be quite slow, generally you can get to a point where the senior cat will tolerate the kitten as long as the kitten isn't actively jumping on the senior in a fairly reasonable amount of time. Its not ideal, but its not so bad either. Full toleration may take quite a bit longer, and you may never get 100% of the way, but generally you can get very very close.

 

[Mouna]

Your trying to create the perfect process to get them from nothing to comfortable with each other without them needing to do any work. It doesn't usually work like that unless you are talking very young cats, and quite rarely when a senior cat is involved. The foster is right; you need to try and worry less and let things play out. As long as they dont actually fight, hissing, growling and stress on the senior cats part is consistent with progress. Progress might be very slow. It might be that in another two months, the senior cat, if it could talk, would still beg you to get rid of the kitten. But even though overall progress may be quite slow, generally you can get to a point where the senior cat will tolerate the kitten as long as the kitten isn't actively jumping on the senior in a fairly reasonable amount of time. Its not ideal, but its not so bad either. Full toleration may take quite a bit longer, and you may never get 100% of the way, but generally you can get very very close.

Thanks so much for your reply!

Yeah, I can see that being true. Our fear of ending up with a similar situation as with Mila probably does not help.

So you think we should keep going in the current pace? (Feeding with a baby gate and supervised roaming). I read somewhere that you need to go back a step if there is any hissing.

Any thoughts on the second kitten?

 

[ArtNJ]

If the issue is that the kitten is jumping all over the older cat, and thats usually an element of it, then adding another kitten might help. Some have said it has. However, its far from guarrantied. I adopted two street rescued kittens when I had an older cat. The personalities of the kittens was very different. One was hyper, one was chill. The chill kitten didn't satisfy the hyper kitten's play drive, so he bugged the older cat, and eventually (when the kittens turned one) the problems took an ugly turn. And obviously, if you got two unusually hyper kittens, its possible that could be worse than one unusually hyper kitten. So I don't every recommend this unless the problem is intractable and the folks want another kitten anyways. But some have said it helped a lot, so YMMV.

If you've monitored them for an hour or two a couple of times, and they aren't going to fight, then I'd let them be together whenever your awake, and eventually 24/7. Messing with feedings and playtimes is overly optimistic. A cat that is sufficiently stressed will not play in proximitiy to a kitten. And they generally wont eat or take treats either, unless you get them far enough away that they more or less forget about the kitten temporarily, and if they are forgetting the kitten is there, how does that help? Its time together that helps.

I think following and hissing is actually good. Or it can be, if it equates with curiousity. I had it recently, with my last intro, and I interpreted it as "I'm watching you! You better not touch my stuff!" Thats 100x better than "I hate you, I'm going to kill you" 10x better than the more common "I'm kind of scared so I'm going to swat! Get away little scary monster thing!" and from experience I think its also a lot better than "oh nos. scared. gonna hide now". My two became friends -- but the older one was 4, which is admittedly a big difference from a senior cat. So I think friendship is unlikely for your two, but nonetheless, following and hissing is not a terrible place to be and can rapidly improve.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Hi. You are new here, so maybe you haven't had a chance to look at the TCS articles provided on this site (see links below)? A month's worth of time is next to nothing when it comes to a 11.5 yo cat.

I wouldn't say what you have done is wrong - or that you have to start over - I think you just rushed the process for Mouna. The biggest thing I always worry about is over-stressing the older cat and possibly leading to health issues from it. It all depends on Mouna's personality and how you handle things with her because of it.

However, if you do decide to get a second kitten, then you will essentially have to start over, IMO. If not, you have 3 cats to introduce at to each other - at likely varying speeds.
How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat – TheCatSite Articles
How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide – TheCatSite Articles
How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction – TheCatSite Articles

 

[Mouna]

If the issue is that the kitten is jumping all over the older cat, and thats usually an element of it, then adding another kitten might help. Some have said it has. However, its far from guarrantied. I adopted two street rescued kittens when I had an older cat. The personalities of the kittens was very different. One was hyper, one was chill. The chill kitten didn't satisfy the hyper kitten's play drive, so he bugged the older cat, and eventually (when the kittens turned one) the problems took an ugly turn. And obviously, if you got two unusually hyper kittens, its possible that could be worse than one unusually hyper kitten. So I don't every recommend this unless the problem is intractable and the folks want another kitten anyways. But some have said it helped a lot, so YMMV.

If you've monitored them for an hour or two a couple of times, and they aren't going to fight, then I'd let them be together whenever your awake, and eventually 24/7. Messing with feedings and playtimes is overly optimistic. A cat that is sufficiently stressed will not play in proximitiy to a kitten. And they generally wont eat or take treats either, unless you get them far enough away that they more or less forget about the kitten temporarily, and if they are forgetting the kitten is there, how does that help? Its time together that helps.

I think following and hissing is actually good. Or it can be, if it equates with curiousity. I had it recently, with my last intro, and I interpreted it as "I'm watching you! You better not touch my stuff!" Thats 100x better than "I hate you, I'm going to kill you" 10x better than the more common "I'm kind of scared so I'm going to swat! Get away little scary monster thing!" and from experience I think its also a lot better than "oh nos. scared. gonna hide now". My two became friends -- but the older one was 4, which is admittedly a big difference from a senior cat. So I think friendship is unlikely for your two, but nonetheless, following and hissing is not a terrible place to be and can rapidly improve.

I guess we misinterpreted her need for company a bit. The kitten is relatively mellow around her and easily distracted

 

[ArtNJ]

I guess we misinterpreted her need for company a bit. The kitten is relatively mellow around her and easily distracted

A mellow kitten gives the best odds. There is some risk that once the kitten gets more comfortable, the kitten will start with the jumping, but if the kitten stays mellow that will help a lot. With a mellow kitten, I wouldn't take a chance on adding a potentially hyper kitten that will potentially be remorseless hounding the senior cat. My senior ended up actually very comfortable with the chill kitten, and was never comfortable with the hyper kitten, even before the serious problems started at age 1.

I'm guessing several million people a year think their senior cat needs company and get a kitten. Its an incredibly common mistake, we get posts ALL the time on this, but not so serious in the final analysis. At worst it will be a slow road to toleration.

 

[Mouna]

Hi. You are new here, so maybe you haven't had a chance to look at the TCS articles provided on this site (see links below)? A month's worth of time is next to nothing when it comes to a 11.5 yo cat.

I wouldn't say what you have done is wrong - or that you have to start over - I think you just rushed the process for Mouna. The biggest thing I always worry about is over-stressing the older cat and possibly leading to health issues from it. It all depends on Mouna's personality and how you handle things with her because of it.

However, if you do decide to get a second kitten, then you will essentially have to start over, IMO. If not, you have 3 cats to introduce at to each other - at likely varying speeds.
How To Introduce A Kitten To An Older Cat – TheCatSite Articles
How To Successfully Introduce Cats: The Ultimate Guide – TheCatSite Articles
How To Fix An Unsuccessful Cat Introduction – TheCatSite Articles

Thank you! Luckily we haven't noticed a big change with Mouna. She eats, drinks etc. She still snuggles and sleep in our bed. She is definitely more relaxed if the kitten is not near her. She does not mind watching her play, but gets up rather quickly. I would never forgive myself if she became ill

We are getting the feeling that there are only 2 options:

1) add a kitten
2) take the kitten back

Also because the shelter has the rule to not adopt kittens alone...

 

[Mouna]

A mellow kitten gives the best odds. There is some risk that once the kitten gets more comfortable, the kitten will start with the jumping, but if the kitten stays mellow that will help a lot. With a mellow kitten, I wouldn't take a chance on adding a potentially hyper kitten that will potentially be remorseless hounding the senior cat. My senior ended up actually very comfortable with the chill kitten, and was never comfortable with the hyper kitten, even before the serious problems started at age 1.

I'm guessing several million people a year think their senior cat needs company and get a kitten. Its an incredibly common mistake, we get posts ALL the time on this, but not so serious in the final analysis. At worst it will be a slow road to toleration.

Sounds reasonable.

The shelter has a rule that kittens are adopted in pairs unless there is a young cat present. Of course nobody knew one of the kittens would become ill, but it feels like we only have 2 options:

1) add a kitten
2) take the kitten back

They say the kitten needs a playmate her age and is used to company/interaction with cats. I want to put Mouna's interests first because she was here first.

 

[ArtNJ]

So then you should consider whether you want two kittens for your own sake, and if so, whether you are willing to subject your cat to the acclimation process. The odds are good that they can get pretty close to toleration, but the odds are bad that your senior cat will ever play with them or get a benefit. So doing it for the senior cat should be right out -- it definitely does happen, but its a minor miracle when a senior cat actually befriends a kitten. So being very strict with your criteria -- putting the seniors interest first -- you should unfortunately return the kitten. All of that said, its not going badly at all in the scheme of things, and even friendship is still on the table (if very unlikely) so I hate to recommend that.

I get why shelters do this, but personally think its usually bunk. I've had one kitten that was incredibly bonded to another and would follow the other around and cry if he couldn't be found, but for the most part kittens are just incredibly adaptible.

 

[FeebysOwner]

Also because the shelter has the rule to not adopt kittens alone...

So, are you saying that you have to replace the sick kitten - you can't just keep the one you have??? Wow, I understand their policy, but they need to be a bit more lenient with exceptions such as the one you just experienced.

 

[Mouna]

So, are you saying that you have to replace the sick kitten - you can't just keep the one you have??? Wow, I understand their policy, but they need to be a bit more lenient with exceptions such as the one you just experienced.

I'm not sure if they would go that far because our situation is a bit unique, but they posed that it is better for all parties. Let's just say I never considered 1 kitten might be a option.

The kitten will have a friend and Mouna will be left alone more and can approach in her own time. Roll of the dice though and we are a bit done with gambling.

 

[Mouna]

So then you should consider whether you want two kittens for your own sake, and if so, whether you are willing to subject your cat to the acclimation process. The odds are good that they can get pretty close to toleration, but the odds are bad that your senior cat will ever play with them or get a benefit. So doing it for the senior cat should be right out -- it definitely does happen, but its a minor miracle when a senior cat actually befriends a kitten. So being very strict with your criteria -- putting the seniors interest first -- you should unfortunately return the kitten. All of that said, its not going badly at all in the scheme of things, and even friendship is still on the table (if very unlikely) so I hate to recommend that.

I get why shelters do this, but personally think its usually bunk. I've had one kitten that was incredibly bonded to another and would follow the other around and cry if he couldn't be found, but for the most part kittens are just incredibly adaptible.

Definitely not for our sake because we are already stressed...thanks for all your input. We have some thinking to do in the coming days I'm afraid.

 

[FeebysOwner]

I'm not sure if they would go that far because our situation is a bit unique, but they posed that it is better for all parties. Let's just say I never considered 1 kitten might be a option....The kitten will have a friend and Mouna will be left alone more and can approach in her own time. Roll of the dice though and we are a bit done with gambling.

I hope it works out for you! Too bad the adoption place doesn't take more into consideration when there is an older resident cat involved. They count too!!! Best of luck!!

 

[Mouna]

A small update: I am working outside of the house today to give them some peace since I tend to be the most anxious. They ate together with the baby gate and there was some hissing when they were in the same room.

Now they are sleeping in the same room in locations where the other one also slept.

We are letting them be and letting go of the idea that we need to keep the kitten occupied 24/7. I will try to be less anxious about every little hiss. Maybe sleeping can be their bonding time

 

[Mouna]

We've had some small succes with Mouna smelling the kitten's booty. Still hissing sometimes. And swatting when there is a snack involved and the kitten is too close. Mouna is not fully relaxed.

And we are told the kitten needs a playmate so the choice is indeed to add another or bring her back, even though the kitten is very mellow and has adapted to our routine. If things don 't improve, we don 't think we can go through another introduction - even with a test period- and will always do what is best for Mouna.