Starting with Raw Food

[harleydiva]

Me again,

Does anyone alternate days with the cut up frakenprey and premix MPC/and or store bought like primal raw?

Thanks

I typed up a long response to this, and then Gideon ran across my keyboard and deleted it before I could submit.  Trying again.

The first couple of weeks, you should probably limit to one or two proteins (like poultry), while the cat's systems adjust to the raw food.  After that, if all is well, rotation is a good thing.  It keeps them from getting "stuck" on a particular food, as well as provides multiple nutritional profiles.

I feed ground mixes, morning and evening, and give them 'lunch" if they seem hungry in the middle of the day.  Some days, they don't seem to want it, and some days they aren't hungry in the evening if they have had lunch.  Lunch is either freeze dried, chicken thigh strips, or hearts and gizzards.  About once a week they get salt free, water packed sardines. I use salmon oil in the ground mix several time a week, but no other fish.  My guys are just over a year old, and get 2.5 oz morning and evening, plus whatever they might get for lunch (1-2 oz)

I mix 24 pounds of ground mixes every 2 weeks (for 3 cats and 3 small dogs).  I mix 3 proteins each time. This week they are rotating between a beef/tripe mix, venison, and rabbit.  Next time it will be guinea hog (pork), chicken, and duck or beef.  My guys seem like the redder meats better.  Rabbit is the favorite, followed by pork.  I have also used a kitten mix, with beef/chicken/egg, as well as quail, and turkey.  They don't like turkey.  I will probably try some lamb next order.  I use a bit of crumbled freeze dried as a topper....it just seems to get them started eating better.  Check out absolutepets.com for good quality freeze dried at a good price.

So.....the answer is yes.  Variety is a good thing, once your cats have adjusted to the raw diet.  Monitor their reactions to different proteins, in terms of how well they like it, as well as how they do with it.  My guys have had no negative reactions to any type of meat, and do well with the natural bone, but others have had different results.  Since mine are eating mostly ground whole prey, they are getting plenty of bone.  I don't worry about supplementing the chicken strips/heats/gizzards, since it is not more than 15% of their diet.

 

[djkitties]

Thanks HarleyDiva for your detailed response.

 

[ldg]

Me again,

Does anyone alternate days with the cut up frakenprey and premix MPC/and or store bought like primal raw?
Thanks

I'm on the east coast, and I use http://www.hare-today instead of MPC. Either way, I have to incur shipping charges, and Hare-Today charges a lot less.

I provide mine a mix of prey model raw either boneless (supplemented with eggshell powder or freeze dried bone) or bone-in meals; raw meat supplemented with one supplement that balances just meat (Call of the Wild by Wysong); the whole ground animal mixes from Hare Today, and whole prey (quail) once a week. (Though the quail are large enough I have to quarter them for a meal).

For ALL cats I use an omega 3 (500mg of salmon oil daily for most of the cats; krill oil for one that has arthritis. Krill oil is more bioavailable in that respect, but it costs a lot more, and it has no vitamin D in it).

For ALL cats I provide a human acidophilus probiotic with 10 billion CFU (colony forming units) of live cultures, once daily.

I like including the whole ground animal. I also "need" the ground raw in there to get egg yolks into my cats. Most of my cats hate egg yolks, and I see them as a rather essential component of a prey model raw diet: they provide choline and vitamin D (and more omega 3s). If we use store bought commercial raw, or supermarket meat, almost none of it is organic, naturally raised, pastured animals, fed a natural diet. That alters the nutritional profile and the fat profile. So I choose to compensate for that with some things. I also give them a sardine (tinned, in salt, no water) once or twice a week as a treat (again, omega 3s and vitamin D).

I feed mine 3 meals of heart a week, so additional taurine probably isn't necessary in my diet.

Bottom line... I rotate types/styles of raw food, proteins, sources of calcium... pretty much everything. :lol3:

 

[djkitties]

More?? plus Updating I've got both kitties on Primal Raw and NV Raw Frozen. I started adding a daily probiotic and L-Lysine.

They both love love it

They also loved the gizzard strips I gave them

I'm trying to get my costs down as well as give them a variety of raw but again, I do have a small freezer.

I found a place that I can get Wysong Call of the wild

I can order online Alnutrin.

Do I need both 1 for ground and 1 for cut up frakenprey?

1  I probably will place a small order of MPC to try it out meat/bone/organ mix. Since I don't have a large freezer I won't be able to fit an entire month worth of ground meat in my freezer for 2 hungry kitties

Would Wysong Call of Wild be okay or do I need Alnutrin for meat/organ/bones?

2, I would also like to try the cut up version of Frakenprey route. For ex. if I started with chicken strips/liver/heart/wings would Wysong be okay or Alnutrin or if I just used meat then I need Call of the wild?

I would also give sardines 1/week as I see you all do that.

And I will get the salmon oil capsules to add to a meal/day.

Thanks so much for all your help. I really really appreciate it.

Oh, I didn't freeze the gizzards before I gave kitties, they were okay. Do you usually freeze the frakenprey cut up meat for 3 days or is that not necessary? thanks!

 

[harleydiva]

Alnutrin comes in 2 versions.....with and without calcium.  If you are using ground whole prey (MPC or Hare Today) use the meat/bone version, without calcium.  If you are doing just cut up meat, you can use the version with calcium...or Call of the Wild.

 

[vball91]

1  I probably will place a small order of MPC to try it out meat/bone/organ mix. Since I don't have a large freezer I won't be able to fit an entire month worth of ground meat in my freezer for 2 hungry kitties

Would Wysong Call of Wild be okay or do I need Alnutrin for meat/organ/bones?

If you are going with the meat/bone organ mix, you need the Alnutrin. COTW should only be used for just meat (no bone/organ because those are included in the supplement).

2, I would also like to try the cut up version of Frakenprey route. For ex. if I started with chicken strips/liver/heart/wings would Wysong be okay or Alnutrin or if I just used meat then I need Call of the wild?

If you are going to feed and they will eat frankenprey meat/bone/organs, you don't technically need COTW or Alnutrin. You need to make sure you are feeding 83-85% muscle meat (which includes heart and gizzards)/5-7% bone/5% liver/5% other secreting organ like kidney, spleen, pancreas, etc. You don't need to get the proportions perfect at first. You have some time to get it right. If they are already eating meat and organ, then you might just need a calcium supplement like eggshell powder until they start eating bone-in meals.

Oh, I didn't freeze the gizzards before I gave kitties, they were okay. Do you usually freeze the frakenprey cut up meat for 3 days or is that not necessary? thanks!

It is safer to freeze first, but I usually feed a little straight from the grocery store (freeze the rest) and haven't had a problem.

 

[djkitties]

 

Thanks Vball and HarleyDiva LDG and everyone else

The store by me will have the COTW in on Friday. So, then I can use any type of meat cut up and sprinkle on it. I can see if the kitties go for an entire meal of cut up (the gizzards I had put in with the Primal)

The cut up frankenprey is more confusing to me as to getting all the amounts correct. I have until next Thurs to decide if I want to place an order with MPC. It's $10 shipping per order but I can't buy a large order due to small freezer sigh plus the cost of the alnutrin..

I'm trying to figure out the ease and price of this. Buying the primal or nv is easiest but maybe a just a little more expensive than MPC. I'm also worried about the safety of the primal/nv with all the recalls going on.

thanks for all your help and advice.

 

[ldg]

NV and Primal have recalls? I know NV had a few batches a month or so ago, but it was a manufacturing problem - little bits of plastic, not salmonella or something. NV and the poultry Primal foods are treated with High Pressure Processing, a type of pressure pasteurization, so they are bacteria-free.

 

[djkitties]

NV and Primal have recalls? I know NV had a few batches a month or so ago, but it was a manufacturing problem - little bits of plastic, not salmonella or something. NV and the poultry Primal foods are treated with High Pressure Processing, a type of pressure pasteurization, so they are bacteria-free.

I think Primal had a voluntary recall in 2011.

 

[ldg]

Well, they had a recall at some point which is why they now use use the high pressure processing pasteurization on the poultry products. I can't imagine that since instituting that there have been any problems. HPP kills the pathogens.

 

[djkitties]

Well, they had a recall at some point which is why they now use use the high pressure processing pasteurization on the poultry products. I can't imagine that since instituting that there have been any problems. HPP kills the pathogens.

Thanks LDG, that makes sense. I just worry a lot.

So, is NV and Primal safer than MPC and frankenprey?

 

[ldg]

I was worried about pathogens when I first started raw. I think many people are. On the other hand... I have an FIV+ kitty, a kitty that appeared to have just recently gone into remission from an autoimmune disease that causes anemia, and one of my kitties was in chemo when we transitioned to raw. So I started with the HPP foods. Mine hated Primal, but liked NV.

They ate NV for a month or so, but several of my cats got constipated from it. It has a somewhat high bone content, and too much bone causes constipation. So I had to thin out the bone with plain meat. And once I fed them cut up raw meat, they didn't really want ground any longer. But at that point, I was comfortable feeding raw, I'd already seen the improvements in them on raw, so the idea of "pathogens" no longer bothered me. The cats' systems ARE built to manage them. They don't have HPP in the wild, you know? And cats are opportunistic feeders above all, so they're scavengers in addition to hunters.

So NV and Primal are "safer" in the sense that they've been treated with a type of pasteurization. Does that kill the enzymes too? :dk: Here is information on HPP: http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/10/22/sterile-raw-pet-food.aspx

Many use MPC and frankenprey, and have never had a problem. I've been feeding prey model raw and an equivalent of MPC (Hare-Today) for almost 1.5 years now, and none of my cats - even the immune compromised ones - have had a problem. (Knock wood! :lol3: ).

 

[djkitties]

Thanks, now that I've gotten COTW for just meat and bought boneless chicken thighs, how do I add the COTW do make sure kitties eat the COTW? Also, what size strips should I cut the meat?

Ground seems easier to mix in the supps. (I'm also getting MPC this week) to add with Alnutrin.

Thanks LDG, I didn't know about HPP.

Thanks!

 

[ldg]

Most cats like the CoTW. I just sprinkle it on top. I feed 1.5 ounce meals, so for the one cat that I use the CoTW with, I sprinkle on half a teaspoon. Some cats love the CoTW, and lick it off, but don't eat the meat. (I'd laugh, but I know how frustrating it is!).

When I first offered my cats cut up raw meat, I just cut it into bite sized pieces - like the end of my pinkie finger. There certainly no harm in trying strips, see what happens. Again, the pinky finger size is a good starting thickness. As the kitties get better with the chewing (or if they're good with it right off the bat), you can make them thicker.

 

[djkitties]

Most cats like the CoTW. I just sprinkle it on top. I feed 1.5 ounce meals, so for the one cat that I use the CoTW with, I sprinkle on half a teaspoon. Some cats love the CoTW, and lick it off, but don't eat the meat. (I'd laugh, but I know how frustrating it is!).

When I first offered my cats cut up raw meat, I just cut it into bite sized pieces - like the end of my pinkie finger. There certainly no harm in trying strips, see what happens. Again, the pinky finger size is a good starting thickness. As the kitties get better with the chewing (or if they're good with it right off the bat), you can make them thicker.

Thanks! I'm so glad I stumbled upon this site.!!

Well.. my 15 week old kitten loves loves loves the raw boneless chicken thigh with the COTW!!! Now, won't eat NV raw chicken LOL.

My 1 1/2 yo is meh.. ate a little bit so I'm encouraged by this.

They both like the Primal and will no longer eat the NV. It's just been so very expensive this month as my kitten eats lots and lots.

I'm getting my MPC order this weekend so I hope they will like that as well (got the Alnutrin for that)

I ordered chicken, turkey a little duck and a little rabbit. some gizzards, hearts and liver. I didn't see any organ like kidney, spleen etc. except for beef and I was afraid to order the beef. My kitten had gotten into my older cat's Hounds & Gatos' Beef and got loose stools with that. The Hounds and Gatos chicken was fine.

Are there kidney or other organs from fowl?  Stupid question I know.

 

[furmonster mom]

I ordered chicken, turkey a little duck and a little rabbit. some gizzards, hearts and liver. I didn't see any organ like kidney, spleen etc. except for beef and I was afraid to order the beef. My kitten had gotten into my older cat's Hounds & Gatos' Beef and got loose stools with that. The Hounds and Gatos chicken was fine.

Are there kidney or other organs from fowl?  Stupid question I know.

I feed Frankenprey style and source all my meats from local groceries.

I get big meat from Costco; chicken, beef, pork, and lamb.

I get organs from cultural markets:  beef heart/kidney from Mexican market, pork heart/kidney/liver/melt and beef liver from Asian market (I prefer the way the Asian market cuts their liver).  I also get frozen pork brain from a local Western Meats butcher shop.

I can't say that I've seen any other chicken/fowl organs other than liver on the shelves.  However, I've noticed there are a few small organs nested in the pelvic bone of the whole chickens that I cut up.

I understand you are in that "in between" state with commercial and frankenprey styles.  So, just offering my own experiences to maybe give you some other ideas for sourcing.

 

[harleydiva]

Thanks! I'm so glad I stumbled upon this site.!!

Well.. my 15 week old kitten loves loves loves the raw boneless chicken thigh with the COTW!!! Now, won't eat NV raw chicken LOL.

My 1 1/2 yo is meh.. ate a little bit so I'm encouraged by this.

They both like the Primal and will no longer eat the NV. It's just been so very expensive this month as my kitten eats lots and lots.

I'm getting my MPC order this weekend so I hope they will like that as well (got the Alnutrin for that)

I ordered chicken, turkey a little duck and a little rabbit. some gizzards, hearts and liver. I didn't see any organ like kidney, spleen etc. except for beef and I was afraid to order the beef. My kitten had gotten into my older cat's Hounds & Gatos' Beef and got loose stools with that. The Hounds and Gatos chicken was fine.

Are there kidney or other organs from fowl?  Stupid question I know.

I started my guys on NV....they ate it for 2 weeks.....until I gave them Bravo Balance.  The Bravo was much more "meat-like", and apparently tasted better.  After having the Bravo....they would no longer eat the NV.  From Bravo, I went to MPC and Alnutrin.  After getting that....they wouldn't eat the Bravo anymore.  I now feed the MPC mixes, as well as some mixes from Blue Ridge Beef that I get from Raw Paws.  Both MPC and Raw Paws deliver monthly around the midwest area, and both are based in Indianapolis.  

The current favorites here are BRB venison, kitten mix (beef/chicken/egg), puppy mix (beef/chicken/green tripe), MPC rabbit, beef/green tripe, and guinea hog.  They definitely prefer red meats.  They don't like chicken, turkey or duck anymore, although they loved all three for the first few months.  They also get gizzards and chicken hearts 2-3 times a week, as well as sardines once a week.  Two of them like Stella & Chewy's.,...one doesn't like it.  I use alnutrin in all the ground mixes.  I am probably going to order some COTW to use with chicken thigh strips (they like the strips most of the time, just not the ground chicken anymore).

 

[ritz]

dkitties, some sources for organ meats include farmers markets:  sometimes farmers have a booth, often their meat is organic, free fed or the like.  You might ask them if they butcher their own meat and, if so, could they please save ALL the organs for you.  Occasionally I find an attached organ with chicken liver--don't know what the organ is, but figure it's good so give it to Ritz.

Amish markets might also sell WHOLE meat like rabbit, usually minus the head, but otherwise intact.

And if you know any hunters,  ask them for the organs--they may want to keep the meat all to themselves, but not the organs.

I've been feed Ritz raw for well over a year, and while she loves liver and kidney, I'd like to see if she's also eat spleen, brains, thymus, etc.  She's an adventurous eater (loves llama, goat, beef, duck, tripe, etc.), so she'd probably like weird organs.

 

[djkitties]

Everyone has been so helpful ..a million thanks!

Okay, I'm a little nervous doing the frakenprey method reading some posts. I am not yet confident I will get the amounts right.

So for now,

My kitten loves the chicken thighs with COTW. I'm confident about that.. as posted above.. I can easily measure 1.5 ounces meat with 1/2 ts COTW.

My other one not so much into it.

Other part of rotation will be the MPC mixed ground meat that I picked up yesterday. I've got mostly 1 pound containers. I took a pound out to thaw in the fridge. How much Alnutrin would I need for a pound of the meat? Do you weigh the Alnutrin ?? or do you measure in measuring spoons.. I would be grateful for both ways info.. thanks in advance.

Also, the frozen pound of meat has been in my fridge since yesterday evening. It still seems really frozen. How long is it safe to leave in fridge before it has to be mixed with alnutrin and refrozen or eaten?

I also put chick hearts and gizzards in the fridge to thaw. I would like to confirm I can feed my kitties these cut up with the COTW just like I would the chick thighs? I was originally going to used these with the complete  frakenprey method but not comfortable with getting it right yet.

Going to get some freeze dried food and a couple of cans for backup in case I don't have enough food defrosted at some time.

I've got probiotics I bought at the natural pet food store..I add 1/4 ts a day.

I also bought NOW taurine. I haven't used it yet.. do I need to add this as well to make sure kitties are getting enough (just worry with the COTW and Alnutrin ) that I'm giving enough.

Also, in regards to calcium,, should I buy a supp to add to make sure they are getting enough?

I will be feeding sardines maybe 1/week.

Thanks!

Thanks everyone!

 

[furmonster mom]

Okay.. hmmm...

I don't really use the supplements, but it's my understanding that the Alnutrin/CoTW should be completely balanced if you are using them as instructed.  Not sure why you might be thinking you'll need extra Taurine and Calcium.

I'm sure you'll be fine if you do decide to add that extra in, but I'd be sure your calcium is balanced with phosphorous and magnesium for proper assimilation.  All three of those things (calc, mag, phos) work together.  Real bones naturally have those three elements in proper balance, which is why they are preferred to other sources.  But until you are at the point that bones are a part of the meals, you do what you can.