Soft stinky poo on raw diet

[ldg]

Oh! It sounded like you were giving him a tablet or something. The capsule is fine (but check at local health food store - I buy the loose powder there and it is SO much less expensive it's ridiculous). The right dose is 1/4 teaspoon. And just put it in the bowl first, and add a little water to it - about a teaspoon or so. It'll gel up in less than a minute, really. Then add the other stuff and mix it up. The issue with nutrient absorbtion..... the way I'm getting around that is I'm not feeding it with a meal. I feed it separately, a couple of hours after the meal as a treat. According to my holistic vet, there's no issue with long term use, and a lot of benefits. I haven't done a lot of research on it, but here's the LittleBigCat article (Dr. Jean Hofve) on it: http://www.littlebigcat.com/health/slippery-elm/

...and based on what she says, you'd want to make sure to give it a couple of hours before or after the antibiotic.

 

[ldg]

Oh - and you were right about the tripe! It's called "green tripe," and it's really nutritious. Hare Today sells beef tripe - either in strips, or ground. The ground llama they sell also has the tripe in it, and all my cats like the llama while some are iffy on the goat. :nod: But just the ground tripe can be fed as a meal, by itself. Many cats LOVE it - I'd go so far as to say, most seem to go bonkers for it. Of my 8, four love it, one will eat it, and three hate it. :lol3: But it needs no added calcium, it's properly balanced as is, and it is LOADED with beneficial bacteria. So you're right - if you're feeding green tripe, you don't need added probiotics. Some people are including it as part of their ground mixes, and when doing that, they don't need the additional probiotics.

In fact, here's a current thread on it: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/254408/green-tripe

 

[txcatmom]

Hi. We've used slippery elm and I just wanted to mention that I read warnings that it can interfere with the absorption of medicines. Not sure that it should be used with the meds for the parasite.

 

[ldg]

Dr. Hofve addresses specifically the use of metronadizole in the comments to the article. Essentially, the collagen in the slippery elm is digested just like any other nutrient, but as I mentioned earlier, because it's possible it could interfere with absorption of medicine, it's best if the slippery elm is given separately from the medicine. The probiotic shouldn't be given at the time of the antibiotic either - the rule of thumb is at least 2 hours on either side of the antibiotic. But it would be fine (in fact, this is how my vet recommends it be given) to give the slippery elm WITH the probiotic. So just give the SEB and probiotic mixture a couple of hours after/before the metro.

...and just to be clear, I don't advocate using pumpkin or slippery elm bark powder - or any fiber - as part of a daily or regular long-term component of a raw diet for normal, healthy cats. I do recommended providing probiotics daily because the diet is naturally low in fiber.

 

[justacat]

Dr. Hofve addresses specifically the use of metronadizole in the comments to the article. Essentially, the collagen in the slippery elm is digested just like any other nutrient, but as I mentioned earlier, because it's possible it could interfere with absorption of medicine, it's best if the slippery elm is given separately from the medicine. The probiotic shouldn't be given at the time of the antibiotic either - the rule of thumb is at least 2 hours on either side of the antibiotic. But it would be fine (in fact, this is how my vet recommends it be given) to give the slippery elm WITH the probiotic. So just give the SEB and probiotic mixture a couple of hours after/before the metro.

...and just to be clear, I don't advocate using pumpkin or slippery elm bark powder - or any fiber - as part of a daily or regular long-term component of a raw diet for normal, healthy cats. I do recommended providing probiotics daily because the diet is naturally low in fiber.

Okay, I have what boils down, I think, to two questions (been out all day with the horses, who have their own digestive issues!!!!). Let me see if I can put them in any kind of order.

1) If the fiber in the slippery elm and/or pumpkin is beneficial because it gives the probiotic something to "feed" on, then why is it not beneficial - if not necessary - on an everyday/ongoing basis, for all cats, whether or not they have digestive/intestinal issues? Up above you write "the fiber promotes the environment for the [good] bacteria to grow" - isn't that always going to be true? It makes me think that in order to get the full benefit from probiotics, all the cats should be getting small amounts of slippery elm (or pumpkin) with their probiotic all the time, since the raw diets we are giving them lack a natural source of probiotics.

Okay, wait, I've done a little more poking around and put this into a context I can understand. Slippery elm is basically just a prebiotic (though there are better-studied ones - inulin and the fructo-things). Prebiotics are (as you basically said above with regard to fiber) the "food" for probiotics. If the argument is that in the wild, cats would get both prebiotics and probiotics (and digestive enzymes) from the stomachs of their prey, then I guess I still have the same question: shouldn't we be giving them slippery elm, or another prebiotic at least (there seem to be tons of them for cats and dogs, and all of them are forms of fiber as far as I can tell, though in very very small amounts), on a regular, ongoing basis? Or perhaps the question is: *couldn't* we, rather than shouldn't we.

Or maybe cats whose digestive systems seem to be operating well don't need any of this? So we could just give a probiotic "just in case," but maybe if they're doing well overall, they don't "need" any of it, so why make it so complicated....

(Also, I'm not sure I understand your last sentence here - "I do recommended providing probiotics daily because the diet is naturally low in fiber.")

2) Putting all that aside for the moment, how often do you think I should give the cats who do have intenstinal issues (e.g. Karli with her giardia) their 1/4 tsp of SEB - is it meant to be 1/4 tsp once a day? Or with each meal (3x day)? Or twice a day? I used to give it to Conan with diarrhea twice a day, but now I'm not sure if t hat was overkill.

So, tripe...if fed regularly, maybe a way to avoid having to deal with the prebiotic/probiotic issue, at least sometimes? Since tripe apparently has both... So I'm feeling like I should perservere on the goat! I have in fact tried the llama, and it was even less popular than the goat - though that was a while ago; it mght be worth another try.  But maybe next time I'm going to just skip the goat meat and llama meat and go straight for the plain tripe. I can't seem to find much guidance on how much to feed, though. The thread you pointed me to has one post in which someone reports the results of asking a vet on feline-nutrition.org - that vet said she feeds green tripe in her raw diet at a ratio of 1:6 (I assume the tripe is the "1" not the "6"!). Maybe that would spread the benefit out, rather than feeding it as a meal by itself. Of course, first I have to see who, if anyone, even likes it! Have to wait for the next Hare Today order for that, which won't be for a while, since it's so much cheaper to order a lot at a time.

Anyway: I have just called the vet to change the flagyl from liquid to pills, because Karli despises the liquid. The other vet told me this is very common, because it's very bitter - I wish the first vet had told me that! She foams and bubbles and gets all around miserable and distraught. She also told me that the dosage the first vet gave me was way too low to kill giardia, which my own research confirms. The first vet (my regular vet) is out for a week, so I can't question him, but this doesn't make me very happy.

 

[ldg]

Hunh. I didn't even know they made flagyl as a liquid. :lol3:

For your Karli, I'd probably use the SEB daily during the course of the metro (Flagyl). You can feed it with a meal, separately from the meal... I'd just make it roughly the same time every day. If the dose of metro is once a day, I'd personally give one in the morning and one at night (meaning give the antibiotic at one end of the day, and the probiotic/SEB at the other). And I'd give the probiotics with the SEB.

As to your question about the fiber/prebiotic thing. I know the argument for some vegetable matter in a cat's diet when feeding raw is that they'd eat the stomach contents of their prey. Some argue that the cats don't eat the stomach contents, but that's only when they catch larger prey. When my ferals eat a mouse, they down the whole thing, usually just by grabbing it, snapping the neck, working it around until it's head first, and taking a couple of chomps on it and swallowing it whole.

...but the stomach and intestine of a mouse is about 7.5% of its total weight. So the food content in there is very small relative to its tissues, organs, and bones. http://catcentric.org/wp-content/up...ge-of-some-Common-Prey-of-the-Cat-06-2002.pdf AND the contents would be predigested. This is confirmed by the Plantinga et al. study, (2011), Estimation of the dietary nutrient profile of free-roaming feral cats: possible implications for nutrition of domestic cats. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=8404219 (The full study is available for free, you just can't link to the full study). As stated in the study,

As described above, the cat’s metabolism has adapted to a carnivorous lifestyle with many of the known adaptations relating to the protein, carbohydrate and vitamin component of the diet. Almost all the metabolic adaptations related to the carbohydrate component of the diet indicate the lack of this nutrient in the evolutionary diet. It could be argued that the shift from an obligatory meat-based natural diet to a meat-based and grain-based pet food rich in carbohydrates may place the cat’s metabolism under stress, and might have unwanted negative health effects in the long run. Although dietary carbohydrate intake could not directly be determined in the present study, the NFE content was calculated. The fraction
consists of components such as sugars, starches, mono and disaccharides, but also water-soluble vitamins. Animal tissue itself contains small amounts of glucose, glycogen, glycoproteins, glycolipid and pentose but does not contain starch. However, when consuming whole prey, the digesta
of prey items may contain some starch. These carbohydrate sources may be the reason why cats have retained a limited ability to digest starch. The starch content of prey species is difficult to assess, as it is primarily based on the diet consumed. However, as an example, the following calculation provides an indication of the magnitude of starch ingestion by feral cats. The starch content of the digesta of captive young rabbits can be up to 130 g/kg DM, depending on the starch source(55). Assuming that the mean starch content of the digesta is approximately 100 g/kg DM, digesta moisture content 80%(56) and the digesta mass of rabbits 10%(57), the calculated starch content of a rabbit weighing 1·5 kg is 3·0 g
(0·2% body weight). Wild rabbits forage primarily on grasses and leafy weeds, with high contents of fibre and relatively low contents of starch, making the latter a large overestimate. Prey species consumed by cats show considerable differences in digestive tract anatomy, with the digesta mass of rabbits being as high as 10% of body mass(57), while omnivorous species such as the rat have a digesta mass of 0·5–2% of
body weight(58). The ability of cats to secrete pancreatic amylase may be beneficial in utilising the glycogen content of prey. Based on the above calculations, it can be concluded that the NFE content reported in the present study contains little starch and as such is composed of other fibrous material. Twenty-one of the twenty-seven studies reported small amounts of plant material being found in the scats, stomach and gut content of feral cats. Molsher et al.(59) reported that cats frequently consume vegetation (FO of 26·3 %) consisting mostly of a few strands of grass. The authors concluded, however, that plant material is a minor component of the diet of feral cats, as ingestion is likely to occur incidentally while foraging for invertebrates.

There are some people that do believe we should give our cats some fiber regularly (Dr. Becker of Mercola advocates this, as do many of the ground recipes). I don't think cats would naturally eat psyllium husk, ground chia seeds, pumpkin, slippery elm bark powder, etc. so I don't see why a cat that doesn't have a compromised GI system in some way should be fed these regularly. The Plantinga study also indicates that carbs are around 2% of a feral cat's diet on average (on a dry matter basis). The diet I fed them is 0.8% carbs on a DMB basis without the addition of any fiber. So the amount I'd need to add to bring it up to 2% is basically minute.

For kitties with specific health issues, I believe there can be benefit - even a need - to use something like pumpkin or slippery elm, etc.

As to the tripe, I think you read that wrong. The vet said she uses it as 1/6th of her ground mixes, but more would be OK. But the inclusion of tripe in the diet on a regular basis would definitely be able to replace the use of a manufactured probiotic, IMO.

As to my sentence, "I do recommended providing probiotics daily because the diet is naturally low in fiber," what I meant was... cats would naturally be eating some probiotic with every meal (as they eat the stomach, small intestines, and colon), but they would not naturally be eating almost any fiber. So it seems to me cats' systems are set up to constantly be "replacing" the healthy gut flora, rather than "growing" it with dietary fiber. So I'd rather provide a daily probiotic - which is part of their natural diet - than feed them fiber - which isn't part of their natural diet (certainly not in the quantities any food or daily fiber addition would mean).

I hope others chime in with their thoughts. But did I answer your questions?

 

[ldg]

I'd like to add... I don't think there's any one "right" answer. I think everyone should do their own research, and make an informed decision based on their situation and kitties' health.

 

[auntie crazy]

...

Or maybe cats whose digestive systems seem to be operating well don't need any of this? So we could just give a probiotic "just in case," but maybe if they're doing well overall, they don't "need" any of it, so why make it so complicated....

....

This is my philosophy, precisely. None of my six furbabies, nor the vast majority of cats owned by folks with whom I've worked, receive probiotics routinely. There is no need, in my mind, to make things more complex - or daunting to those new to raw - than truly called for.

Are they helpful when a cat's digestive physiology is compromised in some way? Absolutely! Are they routinely necessary for a healthy cat? Not at all.

On the other hand, they don't hurt, and peace of mind is very important for us and our cats. It's not good to be constantly worried and cats definitely react to our feelings of unease; if feeding probiotics gives you peace of mind, there's certainly no harm to doing so as long as good-quality products are used.

AC

 

[justacat]

...

Or maybe cats whose digestive systems seem to be operating well don't need any of this? So we could just give a probiotic "just in case," but maybe if they're doing well overall, they don't "need" any of it, so why make it so complicated....

....

This is my philosophy, precisely. None of my six furbabies, nor the vast majority of cats owned by folks with whom I've worked, receive probiotics routinely. There is no need, in my mind, to make things more complex - or daunting to those new to raw - than truly called for.

Are they helpful when a cat's digestive physiology is compromised in some way? Absolutely! Are they routinely necessary for a healthy cat? Not at all.

On the other hand, they don't hurt, and peace of mind is very important for us and our cats. It's not good to be constantly worried and cats definitely react to our feelings of unease; if feeding probiotics gives you peace of mind, there's certainly no harm to doing so as long as good-quality products are used.

AC

I tend to be a little bit of a worrier. I believe that the best diet for cats is whole live prey animals. My cats aren't going to be eating that, for a variety of reasons (not least of which is that the older ones especially would have no idea what to do with a live anything!). So second best: raw dead prey animals, in some form or another (whole, ground, whatever). This is what I'm doing. But this isn't the same as live prey - there are no eyeballs or brains or whatever, and these aren't actually exactly the same animals cats would be eating, and the meat is frozen and then thawed, and sometimes ground, and whatever whatever. So I worry - what things are missing from their diet that they would be getting in a perfect world? I'm not going to go vastly overboard here. But what reasonable things can I do to make some effort to ensure that I'm replacing at least the most important parts of whatever is lost?

Anyway, I'm not convinced a probiotic is necessary, but since it doesn't do any harm, and they don't mind it, I'll keep giving it!  I also add the Alnutrin supplement, which I feel is a very good basic supplement, with nothing unnecessary or un-cat-friendly added (no plants or berries or random meat products), just some of the most important vitamins. Adding it to the ground bones/organs/meat makes me feel better. And of course, adding the one with calcium to my meat/liver/no-bone mix is necessary. The only other supplements I give are fish oil - again, no harm, and they don't mind, so I'll give it  (even my horses get fish oil!!), and extra taurine occasionally.

But the two kitties currently on Flagyl (vet put Conan on it, because he had similar, though milder, symptoms, and since he's in the same household as Karli...) are getting special treatment. At the midday meal - the one with no antibiotics - I mix up the slippery elm with water, to make it a gel, add the probiotic, put it in a bowl with a little Whole Life turkey crumbled over, and they each eat that - they seem to regard it as a treat.

Then at the other two meals, I have the ordeal of getting the Flagyl pills down them. No one warned me how difficult this would be! I have a reasonable amount of experience with pill giving, but this must be seriously vile stuff, because my cats have never reacted like this. Karli gets 2 50-mg pills, twice a day. Luckily I discovered that if I cut each pill into quarters, and hide each quarter in a little blob of ground meat, and then put crumbled Whole Life turkey on top, she will gobble down the little ground "meatball" with the quarter pill inside. This is laborious, but worth it. Conan gets half a 250-mg pill twice a day, and this is much harder. The pills are bigger, they are uncoated, and there's no way he'd be taken in by a trick like that! He is miserable. So far my most successful approach has been to liberally coat the pill in butter - I think it masks the taste a tiny bit at least, and it seems to slip down his throat more easily. But I still have 7 more days of this, ugh!

Seems to have made a huge difference for Karli - haven't actually seen her poop, but that's a good thing, as before this I was seeing (and smelling!) her go three times a day. (We have 4 boxes, some upstairs and some down, so I don't always see.) Can't tell yet with Conan - he is very secretive and shy with his litter box habits, so I have to spy!

 

[harleydiva]

The ingredient list isn't pretty.....but those Pill Pockets are a wonderful thing when you have to give pills to cats.  They are worth it just to avoid the stress on me and the cat.  All three of my guys think they are a wonderful treat, and the pills go right down with no hassle.  

 

[justacat]

Well, in light of the fact that Karli (the kitten, who...enjoys her food!) eats the little quarter-pill meatballs, the Pill Pockets would probably work for her - but I've tried them with my other cats in the past, and they look at me like I'm crazy: you think we're stupid, like we can't tell that there's something inside there?! You think we're dogs or something?!

  No way would Conan go for that - he'd just lick around the outside and then walk away. Unfortunately most of my cats simply aren't appetite-driven enough for those to work. It's a good idea though - although I've googled a bit about Flagyl, and it seems like even cats for whom Pill Pockets usually work are rejecting them with this medicine. It (Flagyl) is used for humans, too, and I've seen some people comment that it truly is vile!

So I suppose I feel lucky that Karli is eating them at all.

 

[ldg]

I had to take flagyl for giardia, there was a problem with the well water here. :nod: It is vile - it's VERY metallic tasting, and leaves the mouth tasting like metal even after you take the thing.

I'm so glad Karli's doing better! Continued for both of them - hope you're able to spy on Conan soon. :lol3: