Servals

Willowy

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aren't they essentially saying that what you would use to confine a regular dog is good enough for a wolf dog?
No. In most states you have to have an 8-foot enclosure for a wolfdog in order to be approved for a permit. And, wolves can't climb ;). Well, not like cats anyway---some wolves can climb fences.

I suspect that there are no places that allow wolfdogs without a permit but outlaw Savannahs. The laws usually group all hybrids together.
I also may have trouble believing that a later generation Savannah cat could hurt me any worse than any other domesticated cat, regardless of if it's hybrid or not, simply due to its small size.
A later-generation Savannah, no. They have very little wild blood.

Feral cats and wildcats are very different. Feral cats are scared. They don't want to hurt anybody. The same applies to most wild wildcats. But a "tamed" wildcat has little/no fear of humans, so that can end up being more dangerous. Just as domestic dogs and "tamed" wolves can be far more dangerous than wild wolves.
Why is the enclosure required? Aren't things like bobcats found in the wild? People don't try to cage them, and wouldn't a wildcat be afraid of people it doesn't know anyway?
I don't know of many municipalities that would allow a 40-pound half-tamed wildcat to run loose. Plain old domestic dogs are not allowed to run loose because they can be dangerous. They sure aren't going to let a cat that size run around with no supervision. A wild animal will be killed if it becomes problematic. And, so will a pet wildcat :(.
 
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I may consider myself somewhat of a cat expert, but I may want more experience with big cats. How can I ever know if I would be a good big cat owner if I'm not allowed to own or interact with one in the first place?

Also, if the guy wasn't against cat ownership in general, why didn't he say, "just adopt a rescue cat?" No, he said, "get a dog!" Dogs are NOT cats.

That might be a small detail to some people, but it might have left me feeling like the person trying to "educate" me about big cats perhaps didn't appreciate cats very much to begin with. Why would I want to learn about cats from someone who doesn't seem to appreciate them?

Not saying that anyone from Big Cat Rescue is like that, but a person who doesn't appreciate cats and just believes they're aggressive, dirty, and stupid might have a hard time with them anyway. Maybe I read the wrong things from that message, but why would you ever recommend a dog to someone who wants to own a cat?

There may be a lot of things about this I don't really get, though, like why are we trying to discourage domestication of new species in the first place? Is it really that bad to have more options for companion animals?

I may get that wildcats are not domesticated cats and perhaps need to be treated and handled differently, and I may not be against proper enclosures for dangerous wild animals, but why is a Savannah considered a dangerous wild animal?

Ignore some of what I said, unless it makes sense. I may just be expressing frustration over what I consider rules that punish everyone instead of just the people responsible. I may not ever agree with punishing everyone for someone else's mistake, and it may not just be pet ownership where hard lines have been drawn.

I may agree that irresponsible people should not be allowed to own an animal they aren't going to properly care for and make sure it doesn't endanger itself or others, but I may not agree with the way people are going about it. I may feel like the overall attitude may be something like, "people who own certain kinds of animals, or animals in general, are going to be irresponsible," and I may not at all agree with that idea. Imagine if we applied that sentiment to other parts of life. Imagine if we said that, "people who drive cars are going to kill people in drunk driving incidents; therefore, we should outlaw cars and make people think cars are bad."

I may feel like if the sentiment wasn't that we shouldn't have interaction with these animals, there would be better systems, maybe something in between zoos and rescue shelters that allow people to handle, socialize, and tame the animals.

Instead, we may have a situation, in Texas anyway, where Savannah cats are considered "dangerous wild animals," due to being hybrids, and the ones that could be adopted out again wind up instead at places like Texas Big Cat Rescue, where I may be getting the impression they are getting limited if any human interaction.
 

Willowy

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Also, if the guy wasn't against cat ownership in general, why didn't he say, "just adopt a rescue cat?" No, he said, "get a dog!" Dogs are NOT cats.
I think, maybe what he was getting at, is that many people describe Savannahs as being "doglike". Well, if someone wants a doglike pet, why not a dog. :D
like why are we trying to discourage domestication of new species in the first place?
People keeping wild animal pets are not usually trying to start a domestication program. There's more to domestication than taming individuals. Look up the Russian fox domestication program for more info.
why is a Savannah considered a dangerous wild animal?
Now that is a weird law, tbh. Texas usually is pretty loose with the animal laws. But with some Googling, I found that quite a few people have contacted their local animal control group and were told that an F4 or later Savannah (regular cat size) would not be considered dangerous and they wouldn't enforce the law against them. There's still a small risk because it's against state law but if you really wanted a Savannah you could call your local animal control and ask.
 

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No. In most states you have to have an 8-foot enclosure for a wolfdog in order to be approved for a permit. And, wolves can't climb ;). Well, not like cats anyway---some wolves can climb fences.
Wolves, Coywolves and Dogwolves can jump a 6 foot fence at near a complete standstill. There are a number of other dog breeds (including a rottweiler) and wild animals that can do the same because they are powerful.:winkcat:

A wild animal will be killed if it becomes problematic. And, so will a pet wildcat .
*nods*


I may consider myself somewhat of a cat expert, but I may want more experience with big cats. How can I ever know if I would be a good big cat owner if I'm not allowed to own or interact with one in the first place?

Also, if the guy wasn't against cat ownership in general, why didn't he say, "just adopt a rescue cat?" No, he said, "get a dog!" Dogs are NOT cats.
Maybe because no one really should have them as pets - for a vast amount of reasons. Not just the ones I've already mentioned but I'll give you more below.

Dogs are not cats. Correct. And a wild cat is not a cat. So either response from a sheer semantics standpoint is inaccurate. That's all that is - semantics.

That might be a small detail to some people, but it might have left me feeling like the person trying to "educate" me about big cats perhaps didn't appreciate cats very much to begin with. Why would I want to learn about cats from someone who doesn't seem to appreciate them?

Not saying that anyone from Big Cat Rescue is like that, but a person who doesn't appreciate cats and just believes they're aggressive, dirty, and stupid might have a hard time with them anyway. Maybe I read the wrong things from that message, but why would you ever recommend a dog to someone who wants to own a cat?

There may be a lot of things about this I don't really get, though, like why are we trying to discourage domestication of new species in the first place? Is it really that bad to have more options for companion animals?
That statement I have to say grates me the wrong way. You hit a sore spot with me and I apologize if I come across harsh. It's really not meant to be harsh. It's meant to make you think.

You are, quite simply, attacking another human beings dedication and appreciation over semantics. The very first step in appreciation would be to dedicate yourself to learning about them. These people that run these rescues dedicate themselves to care taking for them. Not for some selfish purpose of "ownership" over them or to keep them as a pet for a talking point or because they think they're interesting, or because they want to "tame'" them. They take in animals they have been neglected, abused or their old owners didn't have a plan on how to take care of them should something in life go sideways. Animals that would otherwise die because of peoples poor choices.

What gives us the right the domesticate anything really? Serious question. What gives us the right to go into another country kill and steal and animals young, bring them back into a country that's not native to them, put them into situations that are unnatural for them and then get pissed off / abandon or abuse them when they don't respond the way we decide they should? What do you think, that they walked over here themselves? No - they are taken from another country. Often (near always) the parents are killed in the processes all so what - so we can domesticate a wild beast that really should be left to live it's life the way it was meant to? Cage it? Torment it until it yields to us? Where is the appreciation in that?

Yes - it's bad. Yes it's wrong to encourage that kind of trade. Ecosystems are balanced by what is natural to them. Take away too much, add to much - it's a mess. Why do you think so many animals are endangered. Hint - it's not all caused by global warming. It's called the human race.


Ignore some of what I said, unless it makes sense. I may just be expressing frustration over what I consider rules that punish everyone instead of just the people responsible. I may not ever agree with punishing everyone for someone else's mistake, and it may not just be pet ownership where hard lines have been drawn.

I may agree that irresponsible people should not be allowed to own an animal they aren't going to properly care for and make sure it doesn't endanger itself or others, but I may not agree with the way people are going about it. I may feel like the overall attitude may be something like, "people who own certain kinds of animals, or animals in general, are going to be irresponsible," and I may not at all agree with that idea. Imagine if we applied that sentiment to other parts of life. Imagine if we said that, "people who drive cars are going to kill people in drunk driving incidents; therefore, we should outlaw cars and make people think cars are bad."

I may feel like if the sentiment wasn't that we shouldn't have interaction with these animals, there would be better systems, maybe something in between zoos and rescue shelters that allow people to handle, socialize, and tame the animals.
I get you're frustrated and in some ways I can understand it too. I get you are the type of person that doesn't think any rules or laws are needed. I wasn't too thrilled to pay double for certain types of outlets when I rewired my house this year because "granny government" wants to protect the less intelligent people from hurting themselves, but I understand it.

See my comments above to answer about taming wild animals.

I get your point about the cars - but it's not remotely the same imho.


Instead, we may have a situation, in Texas anyway, where Savannah cats are considered "dangerous wild animals," due to being hybrids, and the ones that could be adopted out again wind up instead at places like Texas Big Cat Rescue, where I may be getting the impression they are getting limited if any human interaction.
Don't quite understand the above about Savannah cats laws to be honest. I'd have to educate myself more on that situation to be able to comment fully.

Then again I'm one that believes we shouldn't have cross bread them in the first place but it's done and it is what it is :-)
 
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Willowy

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There are a number of other dog breeds (including a rottweiler) and wild animals that can do the same because they are powerful.
I had a Rott. He, uh. . .couldn't, lol. He lived quite respectfully in a 4-foot fence and never tried to jump it. But I don't doubt that some can.

I can't find the state permit requirements for a wolfdog enclosure, but many of the wolfdog sites say that a 6-foot fence with a 2-foot extra part bent in to prevent climbing or jumping will contain them. I'm not sure I'd fully trust that, but that's what the local zoo has for their Red Wolves so it must work for them. The zoo has the smaller wildcats (caracals, Pallas cats, Snow Leopards) in fully covered enclosures, which I think says something about their ability to escape. The tigers have a fence that looks to be about 15 feet tall, bent in at the top. But they're put in an indoor fully enclosed area at night, which makes me think the zoo doesn't totally trust the fence.

So the OP could find a zoo with Servals and see what kind of enclosure they have. That should give you some idea of what they need. The website I linked to earlier says they can leap 10 feet straight up so I'm sure the fence has to be that tall at least. I'm guessing fully enclosed is the best option.
 

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I had a Rott. He, uh. . .couldn't, lol. He lived quite respectfully in a 4-foot fence and never tried to jump it. But I don't doubt that some can.
LOL might have been like one of my last gals. A little too lazy to try lol AKA old age chunky in her case. Could never get her to lose weight once she hit 8 ... no matter what I tried.

I assure you though - out of my 12 - they could if they felt like it. Especially if something went by the back of the properly and they went into defense mode. I live with a wetland behind me. Lots of wild things that caught their eye.

I can't find the state permit requirements for a wolfdog enclosure, but many of the wolfdog sites say that a 6-foot fence with a 2-foot extra part bent in to prevent climbing or jumping will contain them. I'm not sure I'd fully trust that, but that's what the local zoo has for their Red Wolves so it must work for them. The zoo has the smaller wildcats (caracals, Pallas cats, Snow Leopards) in fully covered enclosures, which I think says something about their ability to escape. The tigers have a fence that looks to be about 15 feet tall, bent in at the top. But they're put in an indoor fully enclosed area at night, which makes me think the zoo doesn't totally trust the fence.
I'm not sure I'd trust it either.

Wild cats, much like our indoors cats, are masters of escape if they so choose. ;-)


So the OP could find a zoo with Servals and see what kind of enclosure they have. That should give you some idea of what they need. The website I linked to earlier says they can leap 10 feet straight up so I'm sure the fence has to be that tall at least. I'm guessing fully enclosed is the best option.
Yes. They could - and they really should spend some time reading and getting to know the breed. It's a massive under taking and not for the faint of heart.

They really need something like basscat basscat s set up and with it - the level of commitment basscat and family have for the bobcat. No matter how it turns out in the long run, they are prepared and fully committed to care for the wee one.
 

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I live with an F6 and F7 Savannah cat and know a bit about Servals.

From what I have been told participating in various online groups, the vast majority of Servals in North America have been captive bred for many generations, so they aren't really "wild animals".

But unlike our semi domesticated family cats, Servals do not have thousands of years of evolution and choosing to live alongside humans, so even if they have been captive bred for many generations, Servals are not really a practical fit with the lifestyles of most human families...

Which can lead to a deeply unhappy captive cat or unforeseen problems down the road, which are not at all fair to the cat. Even if someone is well informed and is totally dedicated to doing everything they can so a Serval has the best life possible, what if this excellent guardian dies or ends up with an injury so they can't continue to provide this care? What if the person living with a Serval had to move and none of the places available were suitable for a Serval?

Do you have a large extended family who would continue as the Serval's family, and do you have a family home with lots of space for an outdoor enclosure, that will remain a family home for at least the next 20 years?

There is some good groups like Savannah Rescue that do everything possible to rehome hybrid cats that loose their family, ( not sure if they ever assist Servals?) but in my opinion, taking any animal that has lived it's whole life as a member of a human family, and then putting it into a situation where it only has access to an outdoor cage, and has minimal human contact, is in most cases really cruel. I am under the impression Big Cat Rescue routinely does this... It isn't like they are trying to rehabilitate wild life, so the cats that were previously family pets can be released back into the wild...
 

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I live with an F6 and F7 Savannah cat
Would you mind educating us all a bit more on this breed.

For starters everything I've read indicates they tend to bond to one person in the home, and, like a Bengal, do not do well when separated from them or another of their kind that they get separated from.


I am under the impression Big Cat Rescue routinely does this... It isn't like they are trying to rehabilitate wild life, so the cats that were previously family pets can be released back into the wild...
I would encourage you to read some of the stories for each and ask questions about how those animals arrived there, what the issues were that brought them there and how they are fairing.

While it is true that they mostly do not interact with the animals in a "pet" manor. It's not like they are dumped in a cage and left either. Often it's a case by case situation.

With interaction comes risk and that risk is the animals life. Tough calls have to be made in situations that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place. :-( It sucks - all around really. There is no win and no easy answer or solution when these situations occur.
 
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I live with an F6 and F7 Savannah cat and know a bit about Servals.

From what I have been told participating in various online groups, the vast majority of Servals in North America have been captive bred for many generations, so they aren't really "wild animals".

But unlike our semi domesticated family cats, Servals do not have thousands of years of evolution and choosing to live alongside humans, so even if they have been captive bred for many generations, Servals are not really a practical fit with the lifestyles of most human families...

Which can lead to a deeply unhappy captive cat or unforeseen problems down the road, which are not at all fair to the cat. Even if someone is well informed and is totally dedicated to doing everything they can so a Serval has the best life possible, what if this excellent guardian dies or ends up with an injury so they can't continue to provide this care? What if the person living with a Serval had to move and none of the places available were suitable for a Serval?

Do you have a large extended family who would continue as the Serval's family, and do you have a family home with lots of space for an outdoor enclosure, that will remain a family home for at least the next 20 years?

There is some good groups like Savannah Rescue that do everything possible to rehome hybrid cats that loose their family, ( not sure if they ever assist Servals?) but in my opinion, taking any animal that has lived it's whole life as a member of a human family, and then putting it into a situation where it only has access to an outdoor cage, and has minimal human contact, is in most cases really cruel. I am under the impression Big Cat Rescue routinely does this... It isn't like they are trying to rehabilitate wild life, so the cats that were previously family pets can be released back into the wild...
I may agree that there are legitimate reasons for not wanting to own a serval as a pet, such as the ones listed above, but I still may not understand why we don't have some kind of in between service for the cats that were abandoned. Just calling it a "dangerous wild animal" and forcing it to live its life in a cage without the human contact it might have gotten used to, perhaps effectively working to intentionally make it feral, why? If we don't do that with other pet cats and even encourage social interaction and training with dangerous dogs, why not continue working with and socializing a cat, "wild" or not, that was brought up in captivity? Wouldn't it be better to train them and keep them as educational animals at least?

If that's what they do, maybe my argument doesn't make a lot of sense, but it might be my impression that Big Cat Rescue draws a pretty hard "no personal contact" line with the animals, and maybe I don't really understand that. If they're used to having human contact, why not keep them tame and give them lives comparable to what they got before when they were privately owned, assuming they were well taken care of when their owner was able and not neglected?
 
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Would you mind educating us all a bit more on this breed.

For starters everything I've read indicates they tend to bond to one person in the home, and, like a Bengal, do not do well when separated from them or another of their kind that they get separated from.
I might be able to argue that hybrid cats aren't the only animals said to do that. Birds are said to only bond to one owner, and I may be able to argue that large parrots are perhaps as difficult if not more difficult to rehome, especially if they've developed biting behaviors.
 

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Parrots are wild animals, too, and, in my opinion, entirely inappropriate pets. The larger ones anyway. Ask any parrot rescue what percentage end up in good homes that fulfill all their needs :/. Not many. Most are extremely unhappy birds living a life of neglect until they die young. So, yep, pretty close to what happens to most wildcat pets.
 
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Parrots are wild animals, too, and, in my opinion, entirely inappropriate pets. The larger ones anyway. Ask any parrot rescue what percentage end up in good homes that fulfill all their needs :/. Not many. Most are extremely unhappy birds living a life of neglect until they die young. So, yep, pretty close to what happens to most wildcat pets.
Maybe it really all boils down to people are neglecting their pets, then? Do you think that maybe there's a more agreeable solution than just saying that "these animals shouldn't be kept as pets?" Maybe you could say that, "people who keep these animals as pets should be required to have special enclosures and undergo special training?"
 
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Maybe laws could be made that minimize risk and better educate pet owners of the potential hardships of owning their pets as well as create reasonable barriers to entry without the need for a wholesale ban? I might agree with a law that requires pet owners and breeders to be more responsible, but I might not agree with a law that institutes a wholesale ban or subjects an exotic pet owner to requirements that are intentionally extranuous.

I might agree to an enclosure for a hand-raised serval, for the safety of the animal from ignorant people who may try to shoot it, but I may not agree to an enclosure for a Savannah any more than I would agree to one for a Siamese.
 
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Laws intended to protect people might be a very good thing, but perhaps sometimes laws can be misguided and have unintended consequences. There are a lot of things that are regulated in modern society that I may not agree should be regulated. If a person wants to build a house that is not up to required safety codes but is safe to live in, perhaps that person should be allowed to live in himself or herself but not allowed to rent it out and required to disclose how it was built if they ever sell it. That way, maybe people would be allowed to make their own decisions.
 
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As it stands, we may have people constantly looking for loopholes because they want to do something that perhaps should be legal but isn't due perhaps to the government stepping in and maybe essentially telling us that we are too stupid or ignorant to make our own decisions.
 

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I am under the impression that Servals are less "catty" than most cats... I saw a video of 2 Servals having what was described as a territorial dispute, and they were taking turns pushing each other with one paw... Which seemed incredibly civilised..

I kind of accidentally fell in love with a Savannah. They tend to be unusually social, curious and interactive, and have a sweetness towards both humans and other creatures that seems surprisingly gentle and insightful. Maybe part of that comes from the Serval temperament?

From what I have read in various Savannah cat and Serval groups, Servals and Savannah cats with a high Serval percentage tend to form a strong bond with just one person... However, the same was true of the last regular DSH I lived with. I was the only person who ever saw him... he ran and hid when ever I had guests, and if he had ever had to be rehomed, it would have been extremely difficult for him. Like so many things there is a lot of grey areas, and people firmly on one side or the other of the Servals as pets debate tend to be selective in which bits of information they pay the most attention to. Servals in captivity live on average twice as long as Servals in the wild, and Servals in the wild usually die horrific deaths ( like most wild animals) The same reasons people believe it is better for cats to be kept indoors, could also be applied to why it is better for Servals to be kept as pets rather than live in the wild. Our so called domestic cats also never evolved to live in captivity and indoors only, up until the invention of kitty litter in the 1950's they were free to come and go as they pleased, and are virtually identical genetically to their wild ancestors. So I think the lines between domestic and wild, and what is in the best interest of the animal, when it comes to cats can be pretty blurry. And I am also uncomfortable when people assume they have a right to tell others what to do in situations where there is often no clear better or worse way.

But personally, I would not want to live with a Serval. Just keeping one of my Savannahs happy living in captivity is a lot of work. And maybe unfairly, I suspect many people who do want to "own" a Serval, may want this for reasons that will not be realistic or sustainable long term, and they will discover they do not actually want to live with a Serval.... with all that entails. Which is not fair to the Serval.
 
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I am under the impression that Servals are less "catty" than most cats... I saw a video of 2 Servals having what was described as a territorial dispute, and they were taking turns pushing each other with one paw... Which seemed incredibly civilised..

I kind of accidentally fell in love with a Savannah. They tend to be unusually social, curious and interactive, and have a sweetness towards both humans and other creatures that seems surprisingly gentle and insightful. Maybe part of that comes from the Serval temperament?

From what I have read in various Savannah cat and Serval groups, Servals and Savannah cats with a high Serval percentage tend to form a strong bond with just one person... However, the same was true of the last regular DSH I lived with. I was the only person who ever saw him... he ran and hid when ever I had guests, and if he had ever had to be rehomed, it would have been extremely difficult for him. Like so many things there is a lot of grey areas, and people firmly on one side or the other of the Servals as pets debate tend to be selective in which bits of information they pay the most attention to. Servals in captivity live on average twice as long as Servals in the wild, and Servals in the wild usually die horrific deaths ( like most wild animals) The same reasons people believe it is better for cats to be kept indoors, could also be applied to why it is better for Servals to be kept as pets rather than live in the wild. Our so called domestic cats also never evolved to live in captivity and indoors only, up until the invention of kitty litter in the 1950's they were free to come and go as they pleased, and are virtually identical genetically to their wild ancestors. So I think the lines between domestic and wild, and what is in the best interest of the animal, when it comes to cats can be pretty blurry. And I am also uncomfortable when people assume they have a right to tell others what to do in situations where there is often no clear better or worse way.

But personally, I would not want to live with a Serval. Just keeping one of my Savannahs happy living in captivity is a lot of work. And maybe unfairly, I suspect many people who do want to "own" a Serval, may want this for reasons that will not be realistic or sustainable long term, and they will discover they do not actually want to live with a Serval.... with all that entails. Which is not fair to the Serval.
I may agree wtih most of this. Maybe it all boils down to, "please just listen to both sides of the argument and don't assume your views are one-hundred percent correct and everyone else is wrong." The argument that "apartments shouldn't allow pets because some people are allergic" may make sense to some people, but there may be reasonable compromises that can be made both for those who want to own pets and those who are allergic that won't allienate one group while over accommodating another. In the apartment example, they could allow poodles, hairless cats, and other animals that don't produce dander and may not aggrevate allergies.

For the exotic pet ownership debate, why can't we just reach some sort of compromise using the evidence we have? Why can't we say, "okay, you can own the exotic cats that are bred here in captivity if you can meet certain reasonable safety requirements," maybe something like reasonable sized enclosure for pure-blood servals, caracals, bobcats, etc., special training, handling, and stronger enclosure laws for larger cats, no cats that grow bigger than you unless you will be working with the animal only under supervision, and the same restrictions for a Savannah cat you would have for any other housecat?

Why try to push a mode of action, like "ban all exotic cat ownership" that might not be required and may leave some exotic cat owners feeling bitter?
 
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Am I wrong if I assume that the only "legal" way for most people to work with big cats is if they're fortunate enough to work as veterinarians for zoos?

I might have heard of keepers or trainers who get to train wild animals for educational purposes, but how would one ever manage to get a job like that? It might be that MOST people want to work with and handle wild animals.
 

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Am I wrong if I assume that the only "legal" way for most people to work with big cats is if they're fortunate enough to work as veterinarians for zoos?

I might have heard of keepers or trainers who get to train wild animals for educational purposes, but how would one ever manage to get a job like that? It might be that MOST people want to work with and handle wild animals.

Wild animals in zoos, etc need caretakers / keepers to provide feeding, clean and safe enclosure to live in, ets. Most people start out by volunteering at a zoo or other place such as a wildlife sanctuary and then get paid jobs as positions open up. Anyone who applies for a job just because they love working with animals but have zero experience with the particular animals the job handles obviously aren't going to even be considered for an interview.
 
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catlikes2

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Wild animals in zoos, etc need caretakers / keepers to provide feeding, clean and safe enclosure to live in, ets. Most people start out by volunteering at a zoo or other place such as a wildlife sanctuary and then get paid jobs as positions open up. Anyone who applies for a job just because they love working with animals but have zero experience with the particular animals the job handles obviously aren't going to even be considered for an interview.
That may mean that only veterinarians who are lucky enough to get a job working for a zoo or wildlife sanctuary are the only ones who would be considered for a paid position working with the animals, right? For the rest of us, who didn't major in animal medicine, we may just have to dream about opening up our own zoos or getting enough money and land to create a humane enclosure and apply for private ownership of our admired animal of choice.
 
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