Senior healthy cats - preventive diet?

[Dakera]

Hi there!
So, I have 2 cats, a 15 yo female (last blood tests was pristine) and 14 yo male (he underwent the radioiodine treatment 2 weeks ago, and the first follow-up check-up is due in 2 weeks). Sdma was 8 on his last blood so there seems to be no issue with renal damage.
I give them half raw (turkey or/and chicken thigh diced meat, scrambled egg, no skin as they are both chubby, no bones as I have no meat grinder, with taurine, b-complex, eggshell powder, and omega-3 supplements) and good-quality canned food. They absolutely love raw, but I'm not 100% sure if I'm doing it right, so in order to be on the safe side, I give them canned too.

So.
I am absolutely terrified by CKD, and I'm kind of obsessively reading about it.
One article published in 2021 confirms the established view: protein restriction in CKD cats does have beneficial effects. However, note the "may" in the quote: "high protein foods may negatively affect the health of CKD cats even when they have controlled phosphorus level." (in Ephraim E, Jewell DE (2021) High Protein Consumption with Controlled Phosphorus Level Increases Plasma Concentrations of Uremic Toxins in Cats with Early Chronic Kidney Disease. J Food Sci Nutr 7: 096.)
Another article concludes that phosphate binders may have a detrimental effect, by provoking hypercalcemia. (this one: Geddes, Rebecca F et al. “The effect of attenuating dietary phosphate restriction on blood ionized calcium concentrations in cats with chronic kidney disease and ionized hypercalcemia.” Journal of veterinary internal medicine vol. 35,2 (2021): 997-1007. doi:10.1111/jvim.16050)
This means that the high-protein with phosphate binders recipe that is commonly found may not be that good for CKD cats.

I guess what I am trying to share here has to do with my fear that my cats might develop this terrible disease, and that then, there would be no cure.
So, I'm thinking, I'd rather that they NOT develop this disease.

And here comes my question (at last!)
Does it make sense to slightly diminish the protein intake as they age, even if they are healthy? Or should I stick to the high-quality protein-based diet since they seem to thrive?

Many thanks! And sorry for the ramble!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Since their SDMA is so good, I don't really see any reason to decrease the protein intake. And the newer way of thinking even with kidney disease is that there is no reason to decrease protein in the early stages as long as it's good quality, easily digestible protein. You can't get any better than raw. I'm making an assumption that the canned food you are feeding is of good quality, not something like Meow Mix.

I fed one of my kidney cats raw until she decided she didn't like it anymore. The only changes I made was to switch from bone to egg shell powder. You are already using that, so, personally, I think you are good to go.

 

[Dakera]

Thank you so much!
All the vets I’ve talked to (currently living in France) are trying to push the hills/rc kibble, and I can’t trust their judgement/opinion regarding nutrition…
Fortunately, the vet who treated Feloro for his hyperthyroidism (in Spain) was way more open minded, so not all vets are seeking to increase their margin of interest.

thanks again!

 

[Box of Rain]

I know it is the case with dogs, and I'm going to assume the same is true with cats, but the "conventional wisdom" for a long time was to decrease protein in formulas of senior dogs.

Which has turned out to be exactly the opposite of what's optimal.

Older animals need protein as seniors to help maintain their muscle mass (which becomes harder in old age). The newer thinking is that formulas have been reducing protein just when pets need it most (aside, perhaps, during infancy).

My "inner-intelligence" leads me to believe that the rampant kidney disease we see in felines is due (mainly) to the twin problems that arise from feeding dry food. Namely, chronic dehydration (which is very rough on kidneys) and unnatural levels of carbohydrates.

For me, I would not deviate from what you are doing w/o good cause.

You might consider adding some organs to your rations (5% liver, 5% kidney) as a means to enhance the nutrient support (organs are high in vitamins), but otherwise I would stick with what you are doing.

Bill

 

[Dakera]

Thank you for your advice!

I do add 5% chicken liver and 5% chicken hearts, I just came across another thing, namely that if no bones are provided, gelatin could be a good addition. So, as from what I’ve read so far gelatin is perfectly fine, I’m going to add some in the next batch.

As for the ckd pandemic, I believe that another culprit - next to the dehydration induced by dry kibble, the extra work all organs undergo with carbohydrates, and periodontal diseases- is the over-vaccination. Because the vaccines are made with cells derived from feline kidneys, an immune response might develop, which then contributes to a kidney inflammation. There have been some studies, one of which lasted for 7 years, where adult cats (from 7 yo) where annually tested for antigens, and it found that they all where protected from the vaccinations made before the start of the study. It lasted for 7 years, the cats where still protected without having received any vaccine since, and they stopped it. I think that this study pushed the AAHA and the AAFP to change their vaccination guidelines to maximum every 3 years for senior cats.
That is in the US. In France the vets heavily insist that yearly vaccination is absolutely necessary. I’ll follow the US guidelines…

 

[Dakera]

Oh I think that i should specify that I’m absolutely pro-vaccine. I’m vaccinated and my babies are also vaccinated, so my previous post is not an anti-vaccine thread!

 

[Box of Rain]

Dakera

While chicken hearts are a terrific addition to a cat's diet, and I certainly do include them in Desmond's DIY PRM-style diet as a way to help make the overall diet as "prey-like" as I can, typically they count towards the "meat" percentage, as opposed to "organs" under Prey Model Raw guidelines.

The "other" 5% of organs (that are not liver) include kidney, testicles, brain, thymus & pancreas (sold as "sweetbreads" in the US), and spleen ("melts").

While hearts are an "organ" physiologically, PRM does't include them among the "secreting organs" on nutritional grounds.

Using unflavored gelatin sounds like an interesting idea to compensate for connective tissues. I do feed bone, and Desmond enjoys tendon, and cartilage-rich pieces like pig ears and snouts. But gelatin seems like a good idea.

Bill

 

[Dakera]

Oh thanks for the specifics! So i guess I’ll have to source some organs, not easy to come by in Europe… I’ll check in asian stores …
Thanks!

 

[Box of Rain]

Oh thanks for the specifics! So i guess I’ll have to source some organs, not easy to come by in Europe… I’ll check in asian stores …
Thanks!

I would have guessed that Europe might be easier than the US.

I do well here in Los Angeles by going to so-called "ethnic" supermarkets, ones with Asian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, or Eastern European/Armenian clientele.

Beef kidney is always easy to source here. Post-Covid the others (which I once found easily) have require more searching.

Gizzards (which count as "meat") are a good dental workout (assuming your 15 year old can handle them).

I snag odd bits when I can, then cut into manageable pieces, individually freeze on a tray, and then zip-lock for future use. Makes providing variety relatively easy.

One thing I've noticed here, is that markets that stock "odd bits" tend to have better, more interesting, and less expensive food for humans that the "bland" alternatives at generic supermarkets. So searching out good cat (and dog) items is a double win, as the people in the family benefit as well.

Happy hunting!

Bill

 

[iPappy]

If you're having trouble finding organ meats, I've used a literal pinch of this type of product to fill in the gaps. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B094DKL118/?tag=thecatsite

 

[Dakera]

I would have guessed that Europe might be easier than the US.

I do well here in Los Angeles by going to so-called "ethnic" supermarkets, ones with Asian, Mexican, Middle Eastern, or Eastern European/Armenian clientele.

Beef kidney is always easy to source here. Post-Covid the others (which I once found easily) have require more searching.

Gizzards (which count as "meat") are a good dental workout (assuming your 15 year old can handle them).

I snag odd bits when I can, then cut into manageable pieces, individually freeze on a tray, and then zip-lock for future use. Makes providing variety relatively easy.

One thing I've noticed here, is that markets that stock "odd bits" tend to have better, more interesting, and less expensive food for humans that the "bland" alternatives at generic supermarkets. So searching out good cat (and dog) items is a double win, as the people in the family benefit as well.

Happy hunting!

Bill

I guess in big cities it would be easier, but I’m currently living in a small town in France. The Asia store didn’t have any organs, I’ll check with butchers, and ask at the turkish supermarket as well.
Thanks!!!

 

[Dakera]

If you're having trouble finding organ meats, I've used a literal pinch of this type of product to fill in the gaps. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B094DKL118/?tag=thecatsite

Thank you!!!!

 

[ObeseChess]

This is an n=1 here but Sassy (ages somewhere between 14 and 18, I tend to think 14) had very slightly elevated kidney levels at her checkup in April of 2022. By the time of her November checkup, I had switched her to Tiki Cat "Silver" senior cat food (she had previously been on TC "after dark") and her kidney levels were well into the "normal" range.

edited to make wording a little more clear.

 

[Box of Rain]

I guess in big cities it would be easier, but I’m currently living in a small town in France. The Asia store didn’t have any organs, I’ll check with butchers, and ask at the turkish supermarket as well.
Thanks!!!

Huh.

My cultural stereotype of the French, and especially in the countrysides, is that they eat every animal head-to-toe.

I'd be worried the cats have too much human competition for the odd-bits. LOL

Bill

 

[iPappy]

Huh.

My cultural stereotype of the French, and especially in the countrysides, is that they eat every animal head-to-toe.

I'd be worried the cats have too much human competition for the odd-bits. LOL

Bill

Very true of a lot of cultures, but as they get "modernized" this practice seems to go out the window. :/

 

[Box of Rain]

Very true of a lot of cultures, but as they get "modernized" this practice seems to go out the window. :/

It's unfortunate.

I discovered that my son (who is now 18 as is off at university) shared my taste for offal, and that he especially enjoys liver (which my wife does not). So I bought and made all sorts of liver-based products for he and I to share. Of course both our dog and the cat will eat their liver before anything else. They are smart.

With tripe, I'm alone (save the two furry ones).

I'm really missing "sweetbreads." Had a great local source (my favorite market) that stocked them regularly. And they were cheap. $1.99 a pound. Well prepared, sweetbreads are a delicious gourmet treat (if one like that sort of thing, and boy do I). I'd split the stash with dog.

Covid messed that up.

I'm still counting on France to come up with the goods. Somewhere there is old-school source for odd-bits. I'm certain.

Bill

 

[iPappy]

It's unfortunate.

I discovered that my son (who is now 18 as is off at university) shared my taste for offal, and that he especially enjoys liver (which my wife does not). So I bought and made all sorts of liver-based products for he and I to share. Of course both our dog and the cat will eat their liver before anything else. They are smart.

With tripe, I'm alone (save the two furry ones).

I'm really missing "sweetbreads." Had a great local source (my favorite market) that stocked them regularly. And they were cheap. $1.99 a pound. Well prepared, sweetbreads are a delicious gourmet treat (if one like that sort of thing, and boy do I). I'd split the stash with dog.

Covid messed that up.

I'm still counting on France to come up with the goods. Somewhere there is old-school source for odd-bits. I'm certain.

Bill

I have had beef with liver/heart ground into the mix and it tasted like meatloaf to me, but I can't with tripe, I'll admit! I can't deal with liver straight but I've found mixed in with other things, it's not bad at all.
I'm not familiar with LA or California in general, but if there are any farms within driving distance, contact them and ask if they'd be willing to save some of the things you mentioned. Most would be thrilled to be able to sell/give it away vs. tossing it.
Tag, my RIP dog, did very well on tripe as he had some chronic, low grade GI issues. He also had a lot of bone broth. It was a large portion of his diet throughout his entire life. One of my cats had similar issues and I would offer him a small portion of finely ground tripe, and he ate it every time. My house cats will pick at it, but the GI cat loved it. Made me wonder.

 

[Dakera]

Huh.

My cultural stereotype of the French, and especially in the countrysides, is that they eat every animal head-to-toe.

I'd be worried the cats have too much human competition for the odd-bits. LOL

Bill

haha yes I know they do eat weird things! i guess I'm not that informed, I haven't been here for such a long time…I'll do my research today

 

[Dakera]

It's unfortunate.

I discovered that my son (who is now 18 as is off at university) shared my taste for offal, and that he especially enjoys liver (which my wife does not). So I bought and made all sorts of liver-based products for he and I to share. Of course both our dog and the cat will eat their liver before anything else. They are smart.

With tripe, I'm alone (save the two furry ones).

I'm really missing "sweetbreads." Had a great local source (my favorite market) that stocked them regularly. And they were cheap. $1.99 a pound. Well prepared, sweetbreads are a delicious gourmet treat (if one like that sort of thing, and boy do I). I'd split the stash with dog.

Covid messed that up.

I'm still counting on France to come up with the goods. Somewhere there is old-school source for odd-bits. I'm certain.

Bill

I’m sorry but I think I’m going to shatter the stereotype… offals are not sold in France. That is appart from liver, hearts and sometimes kidneys, the rest is collected at the slaughterhouses and distributed to petfood industries and deli meats manufacturers…
Then again, if i did have a meat grinder it would be perfectly possible to buy the entire rabbit or chicken with head and all.
I might as well try to find one!

By the way, i did buy lamb’s kidney. They didn’t seem to like it, but again, lamb is a very special kind of meat, they might grow toits taste.

 

[jclark]

Hi there!
So, I have 2 cats, a 15 yo female (last blood tests was pristine) and 14 yo male (he underwent the radioiodine treatment 2 weeks ago, and the first follow-up check-up is due in 2 weeks). Sdma was 8 on his last blood so there seems to be no issue with renal damage.
I give them half raw (turkey or/and chicken thigh diced meat, scrambled egg, no skin as they are both chubby, no bones as I have no meat grinder, with taurine, b-complex, eggshell powder, and omega-3 supplements) and good-quality canned food. They absolutely love raw, but I'm not 100% sure if I'm doing it right, so in order to be on the safe side, I give them canned too.

So.
I am absolutely terrified by CKD, and I'm kind of obsessively reading about it.
One article published in 2021 confirms the established view: protein restriction in CKD cats does have beneficial effects. However, note the "may" in the quote: "high protein foods may negatively affect the health of CKD cats even when they have controlled phosphorus level." (in Ephraim E, Jewell DE (2021) High Protein Consumption with Controlled Phosphorus Level Increases Plasma Concentrations of Uremic Toxins in Cats with Early Chronic Kidney Disease. J Food Sci Nutr 7: 096.)
Another article concludes that phosphate binders may have a detrimental effect, by provoking hypercalcemia. (this one: Geddes, Rebecca F et al. “The effect of attenuating dietary phosphate restriction on blood ionized calcium concentrations in cats with chronic kidney disease and ionized hypercalcemia.” Journal of veterinary internal medicine vol. 35,2 (2021): 997-1007. doi:10.1111/jvim.16050)
This means that the high-protein with phosphate binders recipe that is commonly found may not be that good for CKD cats.

I guess what I am trying to share here has to do with my fear that my cats might develop this terrible disease, and that then, there would be no cure.
So, I'm thinking, I'd rather that they NOT develop this disease.

And here comes my question (at last!)
Does it make sense to slightly diminish the protein intake as they age, even if they are healthy? Or should I stick to the high-quality protein-based diet since they seem to thrive?

Many thanks! And sorry for the ramble!

Should I feed my cat with chronic kidney disease a raw diet?

Keep phosphorus levels low but if they're diagnosed with impaired kidney function you're going to have to reduce their protein intake to "kidney friendly" levels.