Resident kitten keeps playing rough with new kitten despite the new one not wanting to play

[Glenn Martens]

based on what you have all said, I kept them together for the whole day and they're finally sleeping in close proximity, not ontop of each other or cuddling up but its a start. it took quite some yowls growls a few spits but it seems to be progressing in the right direction.. gonna have to keep it up the remainder of the week and avoid separating them... hopefully by the upcoming weekend I can leave them to themselves unsupervised. thanks for the advice.

 

[Glenn Martens]

Its easier to put a video somewhere else and just put the link here.

I agree with cat nap that it sounds like play. Its hard to watch normal and fine rough play if you aren't used to it.

That said, I also agree with @di and bob that the best way to tell if its too much is to let the smaller kitten be your guide. Not right in the moment of rough play, but after. If the smaller kitten comes right back in 5 or 10 minutes after rough play and acts like nothing happened, all good. Even better if the smaller kitten initiates play sometimes. If the smaller cat constantly hides and is constantly growling when he does come out, even if the bigger one is chill, there is a problem.

well having gone through a full day of them together it’s mostly Pichu engaging in play. Tho when Raichu yowls and growls and I take pichu away and he takes a moment to rest Raichu occasionally comes out running at Pichu with a jump that shows he’s interested to play still. Just that every encounter usually ends in Raichu yowling and meowing. I tend to break it up if it takes longer than 5-10 seconds or if pichu does not show a sign of letting Raichu go.

I mostly intervene with my hands now cuz I know they’re playing, I felt both kittens their paws around my arm a few times n can clearly feel they’re barely using their bite strength and they have their claws retracted. I think it’s just gonna take a few days for Pichu to adjust the strength he uses to engage Raichu which as you say, he won’t learn by keeping them separate but will only learn while they’re actively engaged daily.

TLDR; it’s going to be a long week of playing cat babysitter

 

[ArtNJ]

I don't think you actually need to play babysitter. Kittens don't hurt each other. Yowling is sometimes a higher level of distress than growling/hissing, but not always. Some cats and kittens are just drama queens. Since we are now clear they are playing, I'd just let them work it out.

Its find to distract if your available, I just don't want you thinking you have to do that. Its draining! And not needed here since Raichu clearly is not holding any sort of grudges and does want to play with Pichu. Its just too much in the moment sometimes, but thats ok.

 

[cat nap]

it took quite some yowls growls a few spits but it seems to be progressing in the right direction..

I don't think you actually need to play babysitter. Kittens don't hurt each other. Yowling is sometimes a higher level of distress than growling/hissing, but not always. Some cats and kittens are just drama queens. Since we are now clear they are playing, I'd just let them work it out.

Its find to distract if your available, I just don't want you thinking you have to do that. Its draining! And not needed here since Raichu clearly is not holding any sort of grudges and does want to play with Pichu. Its just too much in the moment sometimes, but thats ok.

I don't know A ArtNJ ...everything sounds okay...except when it comes to the 'spitting' part.
That level of 'upset' ...'spitting'...is a bit more than just growls and hisses.

True that you don't have to 'babysit' all the time...and true...that it is 'draining'...
But why not do it now....so that the bigger kitten ...does not turn into a complete 'bully'?

Kittens can hurt each other...maybe not intentionally...but when one is much bigger...and throws his weight around...then pain and accidents can happen. The older one should learn to respect the younger one, too. And also learn the 'house rules'.
(You mentioned 'head noogies' and sunburns...but I'm sure your mom...would have put an end to that fairly quick...if your younger sibling cried out. At least, I think so.)

(It's not like you're going to be 'babysitting' the whole month....One week will fly by in no time...plus you get to bond with the kittens, too.
What is better than watching kittens play?
nothing that I can think of.
so watching and learning...and participating with your kittens...is a great thing. At least IMO.

 

[ArtNJ]

Its interesting, there is the saying hissing and spitting, but cats don't actually spit, so I've never know what the heck it means. I always thought its just some people's interpretation of a certain kind of hiss. With yowling, it stands to reason that we also have an intense hiss, and definitely more than the average vocalisations. But if the little one is trying to play after a short break, I think its a good indicator its likely just your average garden variety bigger/smaller issue. That said, we haven't seen a video, so its hard to say, and if one has time, watching and giving a break never hurts so I can't disagree with you, at least not without seeing a video.

 

[cat nap]

Its interesting, there is the saying hissing and spitting, but cats don't actually spit, so I've never know what the heck it means. I always thought its just some people's interpretation of a certain kind of hiss. With yowling, it stands to reason that we also have an intense hiss, and definitely more than the average vocalisations. But if the little one is trying to play after a short break, I think its a good indicator its likely just your average garden variety bigger/smaller issue. That said, we haven't seen a video, so its hard to say, and if one has time, watching and giving a break never hurts so I can't disagree with you, at least not without seeing a video.

Oh, okay...my interpretation of a cat 'spitting' ...is similar to what you are saying about the 'intense hiss'...but it looks more like an actual 'spit'...because the hiss is fully directed towards the other cat...and with more spittle...with an abrupt end to it... is noticed.
Sort of like the cat is throwing a fit...and you can actually see spittle and foam...being flung forth.

Yeah, you're right, "..if the little one is trying to play after a short break, I think its a good indicator its likely just your average garden variety bigger/smaller issue."...makes a lot of sense.
"let the smaller kitten be your guide"..as you mentioned before.

And it does definitely sound like a bigger/smaller issue...with the bigger Pichu...trying to take advantage of his size.
I guess I just don't want smaller Raichu, who seems gentler, too,...to be bullied...but yes...unless we actually see a video...it is hard to say.
Thanks ArtNJ.

 

[Glenn Martens]

I don't think you actually need to play babysitter. Kittens don't hurt each other. Yowling is sometimes a higher level of distress than growling/hissing, but not always. Some cats and kittens are just drama queens. Since we are now clear they are playing, I'd just let them work it out.

Its find to distract if your available, I just don't want you thinking you have to do that. Its draining! And not needed here since Raichu clearly is not holding any sort of grudges and does want to play with Pichu. Its just too much in the moment sometimes, but thats ok.

you are right it’s extremely draining but I’ve been doing all that I can in the past few weeks which was draining as well and if they come out for the better, it will be worth it. Id rather be close by to prevent a fight for a few days until Raichu has gotten more confident in defending himself and engaging Pichu by jumping on him instead. He did so once today so hoping that several more days of that will be enough.

In regards to drama I think Raichu might be a bit of a drama queen... but it’s hard to tell at times

 

[Glenn Martens]

Found a way to upload videos I think. I’ll tru make some new ones as the last few I have are about a week old already. They’re about to start their afternoon naps now so won’t be till the evening I guess!

 

[Glenn Martens]

Found a way to upload videos I think. I’ll tru make some new ones as the last few I have are about a week old already. They’re about to start their afternoon naps now so won’t be till the evening I guess!

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90

testing if the link works, just a video of them getting ready to sleep in close proximity

 

[cat nap]

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90

testing if the link works, just a video of them getting ready to sleep in close proximity

Yes, the video works great.
And I think that your wife... and ArtNJ... were absolutely right.
Going by that video...Pichu and Raichu...are pretty much bonded...look great together...and getting along well.
Sleeping that close together.. with no worries....would be an indication of that.

I think you may have to...make, do, or buy,... something special for your wife, now. Perhaps what the Netherlands are known for...chocolates, tulips and windmills. Or is that Swiss chocolate. hmmm.
Anyhow, she might be bored of seeing tulips, and a windmill would be too expensive...so maybe just make her breakfast in bed...or do house chores for a month...I'm sure she would like that.

 

[Glenn Martens]

Yes, the video works great.
And I think that your wife... and ArtNJ... were absolutely right.
Going by that video...Pichu and Raichu...are pretty much bonded...look great together...and getting along well.
Sleeping that close together.. with no worries....would be an indication of that.

I think you may have to...make, do, or buy,... something special for your wife, now. Perhaps what the Netherlands are known for...chocolates, tulips and windmills. Or is that Swiss chocolate. hmmm.
Anyhow, she might be bored of seeing tulips, and a windmill would be too expensive...so maybe just make her breakfast in bed...or do house chores for a month...I'm sure she would like that.

would that mean it’s safe to let them interact without supervision or interrupting their play? Occasionally Raichu just strolls around the room looking for things and Pichu hops onto him like he just caught a bunny, it might just be that I’m not used to how rough kittens play but it doesn’t look nice to me even tho they have bonded as you say.

Also my wife’s Chinese so any Dutch esq culture stuff isn’t going to do much good lol. I reckon we could’ve had dinner out but with corona lockdown it’s probably gonna be a well served order-in cause my cooking skills are less then optimal. I’ll try make a video of what I described above when it happens again and upload it here.

 

[Glenn Martens]

also a few more images of their togetherness this afternoon.

 

[cat nap]

would that mean it’s safe to let them interact without supervision or interrupting their play? Occasionally Raichu just strolls around the room looking for things and Pichu hops onto him like he just caught a bunny, it might just be that I’m not used to how rough kittens play but it doesn’t look nice to me even tho they have bonded as you say.

Also my wife’s Chinese so any Dutch esq culture stuff isn’t going to do much good lol. I reckon we could’ve had dinner out but with corona lockdown it’s probably gonna be a well served order-in cause my cooking skills are less then optimal. I’ll try make a video of what I described above when it happens again and upload it here.

Personally,...I would still be supervising...and interrupting play...when it gets that rough.
You just don't have to supervise...all the time, now,...and can watch from a distance...and intervene only when it is very rough.
When we see more videos...tonight...or tomorrow...then we can comment more.

(I didn't take into consideration...that your cooking skills might be 'less than optimal'...lol. That might be a problem...until you have more time to learn...and practice, too. lol. So I guess, then yeah, ...order-in would be wise. )
But doing household chores...does not need that much skill...so there you go.
Between... kitten watching, supervising, video-taping,...and doing some house chores...you'll be doing great.
A bit more tired, maybe, ...but I'm sure your wife would appreciate it.

 

[ArtNJ]

Kittens beat the every loving snot out of each other. Its play *fighting* with the fighting being part of it. Cats a predators and the young of all predators do this to varying extents. It can look scary to first timers, but if you don't find injuries (and you won't with kittens) the only real risk is that one kitten gets so stressed that it makes them sick. Which would be super rare, and they wouldn't be sitting like that.

I would not be supervising per se, but I'd still come around if I heard yowling, howling, or screaming to check things out. Some kittens are drama queens, but those "higher level" noises still warrant checking out if you can. And its fine to distract to give a break one cat seems miserable.

It essentially always works out with kittens, even with dumb owners that don't care, which you are very much not. And your two seem to be doing well, despite maybe some occassional over-the-top noises.

 

[Glenn Martens]

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90

This is how it usually goes in mornings which is more than okay no crazyness going on.

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90

when they head downstairs however this is how it usually starts, if I don’t remove him he will continuously stay on top of Raichu on occasions like these giving him no chance to leave. I don’t think if I let that continue it’s good for the little one

 

[Glenn Martens]

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90

This is how it usually goes in mornings which is more than okay no crazyness going on.

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90

when they head downstairs however this is how it usually starts, if I don’t remove him he will continuously stay on top of Raichu on occasions like these giving him no chance to leave. I don’t think if I let that continue it’s good for the little one

With that said it’s the only time it happened today since an hour of interaction where I had to hold him off and Raichu has engaged Pichu by jumping on him a few times albeit less than maybe 5 occasions. Progressing in the right direction I think

 

[cat nap]

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90
This is how it usually goes in mornings which is more than okay no crazyness going on.

New video by Xx_Madara_GG90
when they head downstairs however this is how it usually starts, if I don’t remove him he will continuously stay on top of Raichu on occasions like these giving him no chance to leave. I don’t think if I let that continue it’s good for the little one

Fantastic videos! Extremely fun to watch.

The first one is hilarious and cute.
The part where Raichu blinks at around the 0:24 mark...is so sweet. He looks like a baby bear.
And then when Pichu accidentally falls off the window perch...at around the 0:33 mark...is so funny.
I think that both cats were surprised when Pichu fell...since afterwards, both look at the spot...and wonder if there was some slippery spot there. haha.
Pichu looks a bit confused...and cannot believe he fell, ...while little Raichu looks so proud and happy...probably thinking that he gave Pichu...a TKO (technical-knock-out..in boxing). Raichu has that look of 'we are the champions'...in his proud stance.

The second video is very good to see how rough Pichu can get.
It's actually not rough at all...and so interesting...because little Raichu is extremely smart...since he lays down on his back...and gets into that better defensive position...of using all four of his legs...plus mouth...to defend against Pichu.
Yes, there is a part in the video...near the end....where it looks like Pichu is standing on little Raichu's bladder,...with his back paw,...but at that point...you did really well....in taking Pichu off of little Raichu.

When Raichu grows up,...Pichu might have to watch out...since size won't really matter, ...and who knows what new moves Raichu will have learned from all this kitten playing..that both are doing, now. Your kittens are wonderful.

With that said it’s the only time it happened today since an hour of interaction where I had to hold him off and Raichu has engaged Pichu by jumping on him a few times albeit less than maybe 5 occasions. Progressing in the right direction I think

Yes, you are doing extremely well, Glenn Martens .
You actually don't have to watch them so closely, ...since they are only Playing.

But I like what you are doing, for this week,...since it gives little Raichu a break,...and also teaches Pichu to not be so rough, or at least to watch where he stands on his kitten, and to ease up on his bites and strong grips.

Raichu does make noise, and growls, squeeks,...even before Pichu does anything,...so you know it's only in Play, and a kind of 'signal to Pichu'...that he better not play too heavily, or use his full weight.
When Pichu is biting the back paws of Raichu, at the end of the video...I like how Raichu gets annoyed, and tries to bite at Pichu's cheek, face,...but cannot since he's not as strong, yet.
As Raichu grows, the 'strength stats'...will be more evened...and then the play-fights will be evenly matched.

I would honestly continue with what you are doing.
You have extremely good instincts and compassion.
You don't have to watch them so closely, if you are tired.
And eventually, they will also begin to listen to your voice...with a simple, "hey, hey, hey"....or 'clapping of hands'...but for now,...none of that is necessary...since they are having a great time with Playing with each other...and learning from each other.

 

[Glenn Martens]

Fantastic videos! Extremely fun to watch.

The first one is hilarious and cute.
The part where Raichu blinks at around the 0:24 mark...is so sweet. He looks like a baby bear.
And then when Pichu accidentally falls off the window perch...at around the 0:33 mark...is so funny.
I think that both cats were surprised when Pichu fell...since afterwards, both look at the spot...and wonder if there was some slippery spot there. haha.
Pichu looks a bit confused...and cannot believe he fell, ...while little Raichu looks so proud and happy...probably thinking that he gave Pichu...a TKO (technical-knock-out..in boxing). Raichu has that look of 'we are the champions'...in his proud stance.

The second video is very good to see how rough Pichu can get.
It's actually not rough at all...and so interesting...because little Raichu is extremely smart...since he lays down on his back...and gets into that better defensive position...of using all four of his legs...plus mouth...to defend against Pichu.
Yes, there is a part in the video...near the end....where it looks like Pichu is standing on little Raichu's bladder,...with his back paw,...but at that point...you did really well....in taking Pichu off of little Raichu.

When Raichu grows up,...Pichu might have to watch out...since size won't really matter, ...and who knows what new moves Raichu will have learned from all this kitten playing..that both are doing, now. Your kittens are wonderful.

Yes, you are doing extremely well, Glenn Martens .
You actually don't have to watch them so closely, ...since they are only Playing.

But I like what you are doing, for this week,...since it gives little Raichu a break,...and also teaches Pichu to not be so rough, or at least to watch where he stands on his kitten, and to ease up on his bites and strong grips.

Raichu does make noise, and growls, squeeks,...even before Pichu does anything,...so you know it's only in Play, and a kind of 'signal to Pichu'...that he better not play too heavily, or use his full weight.
When Pichu is biting the back paws of Raichu, at the end of the video...I like how Raichu gets annoyed, and tries to bite at Pichu's cheek, face,...but cannot since he's not as strong, yet.
As Raichu grows, the 'strength stats'...will be more evened...and then the play-fights will be evenly matched.

I would honestly continue with what you are doing.
You have extremely good instincts and compassion.
You don't have to watch them so closely, if you are tired.
And eventually, they will also begin to listen to your voice...with a simple, "hey, hey, hey"....or 'clapping of hands'...but for now,...none of that is necessary...since they are having a great time with Playing with each other...and learning from each other.

He can do a lot worse at times when they're at a distance, he'd literally come charging occasionally and jump him probably using his full weight, i'd not see how he couldn't at that point as he's in full flight. tho I haven't seen much if any of that at all today so we're nearly there.

will keep a close watch till Sunday at least and hopefully see enough process to let them handle themselves less I hear a very loud sound. I know Raichu is plenty start compared to Pichu. If he grows up I think Pichu's probably gonna be on the losing end at times. He's figured out very quickly how to manage his size disadvantage by squeezing into spots where Pichu's size is either irrelevant or working in his disadvantage. ofcourse he cant stay put forever and has to come out at some point for some revenge blows but well.. I think with a few more weeks he'll have enough strength to fight back. Let's see how it goes

 

[Glenn Martens]

Just the final update I’ll drop here for now to not keep bumping the topic as you both helped me a lot .

yesterday I only had to intervene 2-3 times during their play. Pichu only charged Raichu a single time with excessive speed. He did it a few more times but he stopped in his tracks seeing Raichu wasn’t ready to receive his punches (I guess?).

Tho they didn’t sleep together yesterday afternoon, seemed Pichu was sleepy but Raichu wasn’t and he kept pestering him in his face trying to get him to play until Pichu decided to get up n go onto a higher perk where Raichu couldn’t reach him lol.

I’ll watch for a few more days when I have the time tho I don’t think it is necessary anymore at this point. :-)

Thanks for all your help :] if anyone runs into cat troubles I’ll be sure to recommend this forum