Red Flags With Breeder

[ASG1800]

Hi everyone,
I would like to adopt two Persian kittens, and I found a breeder from a CFA cat show a few weeks ago who gave me a flyer with her "available kittens."

I went to visit the kittens last weekend, and some "red flags" came up... First of all, she wouldn't allow me to come into her house. She forced me to visit the kittens in her grooming salon (she's a dog groomer as a business, and the "salon" is attached to her house). The salon was dirty and had a smell.... One of the kittens had poo smeared on his bottom, and another one was sneezing/had nose discharge, which worried me. I spent about an hour there, and decided to leave a deposit, because the kittens were adorable and sweet, and I bonded with two of them who climbed onto my lap.... Now I am having second thoughts because after I left, I asked her if when I came back, if I could "visit her cattery," and she became defensive and said "people aren't always who they say they are, and I have breeder friends who have had people come into their houses and reported them to the authorities. I don't vacuum everyday, or kitten proof my house, but I do the best I can."

That response didn't sit well with me. Why wouldn't she let me see where the kittens were raised? Is she hiding something? I've never had a breeder react that way when I've asked to see the cattery/kittens' environment. She also insisted that I just speak to her references, who are "friends" of hers.. but who knows if they're legitimate? I had my precious kitty die of FIP a few years ago, so I am extra careful about good breeding, clean cattery, not overcrowding the cats, etc.... Do you all think I should ask for my deposit back?

I also accidentally found out that she has a charge against her for "animal cruelty" because a dog died while under her care in the grooming salon... that is also making me nervous.

Thanks

 

[catapault]

I would not walk, I would RUN away. Maybe she's O.K. but it sounds very sketchy to me: you cannot see where / how the kittens are actually raised and also her references are "friends" but no suggestion that they bought kittens from her.

She was at the cat show - was she showing? Did her cats win any ribbons? Were you given the kittens pedigrees? Are their parents registered / champions / anything?

Good luck on getting your deposit back.

 

[lutece]

In general, if you don't have a good feeling about a breeder, don't buy a kitten from them! Sometimes your intuition is all you have to go on. In this case, if you don't feel good about the breeder, you could ask for your deposit back and look for another breeder. She might not return your deposit to you, but if the kittens really aren't healthy, I personally feel that losing a deposit is better than buying a potentially sick kitten. With the Persian breed, there are enough Persian breeders out there that you should be able to find a breeder that you feel more comfortable with. Take your time looking!

As far as whether there is actually something wrong with this breeder and cattery, I don't have enough information to really know for sure. Some breeders just don't let people visit their catteries... Some of these breeders are bad breeders, and others are good breeders who just have that policy. It's hard to say if it means she has poor conditions in her cattery, or whether she is just paranoid, or whether it's actually justifiable in her area to be afraid to bring people into her home and cattery... in some areas, the laws and animal control officers are extremely unfriendly to breeders, and all breeders have heard stories about perfectly good breeders who have been raided by animal control, had their animals taken away and either adopted out to other people or euthanized. For example, animal control officers that considered perfectly healthy Oriental cats to be "starving" because of their body type, or considered a cattery to be unacceptably dirty because litter boxes hadn't been scooped yet that day, etc... We have also all heard of people who have had thieves come over to their catteries and cased the place and later come back to steal things (or even steal cats)... Anyway, it can be scary for breeders, even good breeders, to invite kitten buyers to their home or cattery.

 

[jefferd18]

If I were you I would adopt the kittens, because from the sounds of it, you are more than likely saving their lives.

 

[lutece]

I don't think these kittens sound like they are in mortal danger and need their lives saved. It's hard to say, not knowing any more about the situation, whether these kittens are actually sick or healthy, but it sounds like one was sniffly (which is not really unusual for a flat faced Persian kitten, they often have runny eyes), and one had a dirty butt.

I expect the breeder will eventually find buyers for the kittens, but if it takes a while for her to find buyers, or if she has multiple people choosing not to buy kittens and asking for deposits back, she may think twice about how she is raising her kittens. If it's hard for her to sell kittens, she might breed fewer litters, or change her cattery management practices.

I know it's sometimes tempting for people to buy kittens from a breeder because they feel sorry for the kittens and want to save them. But I believe it's NOT a good idea to do that. Ultimately, if you buy kittens from any breeder, you are supporting that breeder's practices. If you buy from a substandard breeder, no matter why you bought the kitten, you are supporting substandard breeding practices. If on the other hand you seek out a responsible and caring breeder, you are supporting responsible breeding practices.

 

[jefferd18]

[ I expect the breeder will eventually find buyers for the kittens.

Ultimately, if you buy kittens from any breeder, you are supporting that breeder's practices. If you buy from a substandard breeder, no matter why you bought the kitten, you are supporting substandard breeding practices.

As you stated, somebody will buy the kittens from this breeder. My feelings: it is going to take more than one person to make an impact against a bad breeder- things like changing states laws is just one example- so if the author has really fallen for these kittens- then I say 'go for it'.

 

[lutece]

Breeders definitely do reduce their number of litters, or go out of business, when they feel the market for their kittens is too weak and they have trouble finding buyers.

 

[jefferd18]

Breeders definitely do reduce their number of litters, or go out of business, when they feel the market for their kittens is too weak and they have trouble finding buyers.

......or euthanize the kittens.

 

[lutece]

I'm not hearing anything in the story above that suggests that the breeder might euthanize their kittens. This is a show breeder. They will have contacts in the cat fancy that can help them to downsize if they need to, and each association also has a breeder assistance program that helps breeders downsize, in cases where the breeder can no longer handle the number of cats that they have.

I know that people love to demonize breeders, but most breeders, even the not-so-great breeders, are simply well-meaning human beings trying to do their best. Most would be utterly horrified at the idea of euthanizing otherwise healthy kittens. Generally if a breeder cannot place a kitten for some reason, they end up keeping it... most breeders have a few "unplaceable" cats around the house.

 

[ASG1800]

I would not walk, I would RUN away. Maybe she's O.K. but it sounds very sketchy to me: you cannot see where / how the kittens are actually raised and also her references are "friends" but no suggestion that they bought kittens from her.

She was at the cat show - was she showing? Did her cats win any ribbons? Were you given the kittens pedigrees? Are their parents registered / champions / anything?

Good luck on getting your deposit back.

Hi, thanks for your response. Yes, she was showing at the cat show. She shows quite a bit, actually, and I know that she's won several ribbons. She told me that she has only been breeding for 5 years. Turns out, the references she provided me are friends of hers who also happen to own cats/kittens from her, and have supposedly "seen" her cattery and inside her house. The breeder was incredulous that I wanted to see inside her house, and said "the references should be superior to being invited into my home."

 

[jefferd18]

Hi, thanks for your response. Yes, she was showing at the cat show. She shows quite a bit, actually, and I know that she's won several ribbons. She told me that she has only been breeding for 5 years. Turns out, the references she provided me are friends of hers who also happen to own cats/kittens from her, and have supposedly "seen" her cattery and inside her house. The breeder was incredulous that I wanted to see inside her house, and said "the references should be superior to being invited into my home."

Just take it as she doesn't want strangers in her home and leave it at that. When I bought a cockatoo from a very reputable breeder a few years back, she too, preferred the 'no visitors' route. She and her husband are both in their seventies and have been breeding and selling birds for fifty years- they have seen more than their fill of people.

 

[jefferd18]

I'm not hearing anything in the story above that suggests that the breeder might euthanize their kittens. This is a show breeder. They will have contacts in the cat fancy that can help them to downsize if they need to, and each association also has a breeder assistance program that helps breeders downsize, in cases where the breeder can no longer handle the number of cats that they have.

I know that people love to demonize breeders, but most breeders, even the not-so-great breeders, are simply well-meaning human beings trying to do their best. Most would be utterly horrified at the idea of euthanizing otherwise healthy kittens. Generally if a breeder cannot place a kitten for some reason, they end up keeping it... most breeders have a few "unplaceable" cats around the house.

All I know is that when my parents bought a collie from a man who showed them years back, he quietly told my dad that those who didn't get a home were euthanized. I was eight at the time and that statement stayed with me.

 

[lutece]

All I know is that when my parents bought a collie from a man who showed them years back, he quietly told my dad that those who didn't get a home were euthanized. I was eight at the time and that statement stayed with me.

When I was a child, I also heard about dog breeders "culling" some of the pups. It's been a long time since I was a child, though... Practices have changed. I don't know if dog breeders do this any more, but I can tell you that it's definitely not normal practice for cat breeders!!

 

[jefferd18]

When I was a child, I also heard about dog breeders "culling" some of the pups. It's been a long time since I was a child, though... Practices have changed. I don't know if dog breeders do this any more, but I can tell you that it's definitely not normal practice for cat breeders!!

It was in the early part of this century- so I don't know if they have changed or not. But it is a point worth noting- just what would he do with four remaining female puppies?

 

[lutece]

It was in the early part of this century- so I don't know if they have changed or not. But it is a point worth noting- just what would he do with four remaining female puppies?

Cats have smaller litters than dogs, so cat breeders don't generally get into a situation with a large number of unplaced kittens at one time. However, if a cat breeder does have unexpected trouble placing kittens, or suddenly needs to downsize and place adult cats, they generally have several resources to help: (1) They would probably first reach out to their friends in the cat fancy and see if any of them could suggest buyers / adopters. (2) They might contact other breeders in their breed club or breed council for help. (3) They could also contact the association's breeder assistance program for help.

 

[jefferd18]

Cats have smaller litters than dogs, so cat breeders don't generally get into a situation with a large number of unplaced kittens at one time. However, if a cat breeder does have unexpected trouble placing kittens, or suddenly needs to downsize and place adult cats, they generally have several resources to help: (1) They would probably first reach out to their friends in the cat fancy and see if any of them could suggest buyers / adopters. (2) They might contact other breeders in their breed club or breed council for help. (3) They could also contact the association's breeder assistance program for help.

That's good, lets hope that all breeders know about those resources.

 

[ASG1800]

In general, if you don't have a good feeling about a breeder, don't buy a kitten from them! Sometimes your intuition is all you have to go on. In this case, if you don't feel good about the breeder, you could ask for your deposit back and look for another breeder. She might not return your deposit to you, but if the kittens really aren't healthy, I personally feel that losing a deposit is better than buying a potentially sick kitten. With the Persian breed, there are enough Persian breeders out there that you should be able to find a breeder that you feel more comfortable with. Take your time looking!

As far as whether there is actually something wrong with this breeder and cattery, I don't have enough information to really know for sure. Some breeders just don't let people visit their catteries... Some of these breeders are bad breeders, and others are good breeders who just have that policy. It's hard to say if it means she has poor conditions in her cattery, or whether she is just paranoid, or whether it's actually justifiable in her area to be afraid to bring people into her home and cattery... in some areas, the laws and animal control officers are extremely unfriendly to breeders, and all breeders have heard stories about perfectly good breeders who have been raided by animal control, had their animals taken away and either adopted out to other people or euthanized. For example, animal control officers that considered perfectly healthy Oriental cats to be "starving" because of their body type, or considered a cattery to be unacceptably dirty because litter boxes hadn't been scooped yet that day, etc... We have also all heard of people who have had thieves come over to their catteries and cased the place and later come back to steal things (or even steal cats)... Anyway, it can be scary for breeders, even good breeders, to invite kitten buyers to their home or cattery.

Thank you for your thoughtful response....As you mentioned, my intuition is all I have to go on at this point... I felt OK about the kittens when I was there with them in person, but once I started asking the breeder questions and asking to see her cattery, she suddenly got defensive and was not nearly as accommodating and nice as she was before, which was a huge red flag for me. I understand that I am a stranger, and some breeders have a "no visit" policy.. however, how can I prove that she takes care of her cats/kittens, and that she is not hiding something? Wouldn't you think that if a breeder is ethical and trustworthy, they would have little problem allowing you to view the cattery? I've had Persian cats for my entire life (I'm in my 30's now), and I've never encountered a breeder who would not allow me to view the cattery/home environment. I mean, due to her history with the trial (due to dog dying at her grooming salon), maybe she IS more paranoid? But.. I am also paranoid, because I've encountered breeders who lie and are sketchy, and I lost my last cat to FIP due to careless breeding (overcrowding, too many cats using the same litter box, lack of hygiene, etc.).

I'm agonizing over this because I really liked the kittens I was going to adopt.. they were both very spunky and curious, and had big personalities. I didn't see any obvious health issues (but who knows???). I feel like I would be taking a risk in adopting them... But, on the other hand, I feel like it's a huge risk to adopt them without seeing their home environment or their parents. I feel that a reputable breeder would have nothing to hide. I really just wanted a second opinion from you all. Maybe I'm ALSO being paranoid? I was wondering if my past experiences with losing a cat to FIP and meeting some other breeders who were dishonest has tainted my view.

 

[lutece]

You could try talking to the breeder, telling her just what you said above:

• You really liked the kittens' personalities and didn't see any obvious health issues (although you feel a little concerned about the respiratory discharge).
• But you have lost a cat to FIP and encountered other dishonest breeders, so you are nervous, and it's hard for you to feel comfortable with someone who doesn't let you into the kittens' home environment. So you don't know what to do.

You could see what she says... maybe you will learn something (either positive or negative). You could also try calling the references and talking to them, and see what they say. If you still have a bad feeling about her after that, I would trust the feeling and ask for the deposit back. Feeling uncomfortable with her wouldn't necessarily mean she is a bad breeder, although your intuition might be telling you something... but if you don't feel good about her, she isn't the right breeder for you.

About FIP, although it is true that overcrowding is definitely a factor in FIP... ANY breeder might sell you a kitten that would develop FIP. Even the very best breeders with the very best cattery practices are unfortunately not immune, unless they have a coronavirus free cattery, and this is not really possible if you show your cats and exchange cats with other breeders. We all live in fear of getting a call from a kitten buyer telling us that a kitten we sold has developed FIP.

 

[abyeb]

Hi there, I’m sorry to hear that you had a bad experience with this breeder. Usually breeders at shows are very reputable. I would say that, if this breeder doesn’t sit right with you, then look at some others. From what you described I think there are red flags as well.

 

[ASG1800]

Thanks for your input and advice everyone. I decided not to adopt the kittens from this breeder. As some of you said, it's important to feel comfortable with the breeder and I don't want to support someone who I think might be engaging in unethical breeding practices....I did speak to her references, one of whom did not even call me back (bad sign)... and the other one who laughed and said, "I've never had Persian cats before! The breeder is not a bad person!" (I never implied that she's a bad person, but why are even the references defensive???)

I requested my deposit back in writing. She agreed to return it, but she wanted to "talk on the phone" first and she offered to provide me with MORE references who have also been "not invited into my home." I was not interested in speaking with more of her references... this whole situation has left me with a bad gut feeling. The kittens were very cute, but I think I am doing the right thing.

I also spoke with a CFA breeder who has been breeding Persians for 43 years, and she said that she would "never" adopt kittens from a breeder who wouldn't allow you into her cattery/home environment, because she may be hiding something, and the conditions that the kittens were raised in might be filthy and their health is not guaranteed.