Recipe Question

[backyardzoo]

Hello
Most of the recipes I have seen are when you are separately sourcing the meat/bone, organs and grinding. Is there any recipes for when you buy everything already pre-blended(80 meat/10 bone/10 organ or 90 meat/10 muscle etc? The place I buy my dog food from offers several different proteins in this pre-mixed format(no additives) and would be easier/cheaper than the pet store commercial cat frozen for me as the one cat does eat the same protein as the dog. Would there be any concerns besides trying to figure out the vitamins etc?

 

[mschauer]

It's first it's going to depend on what you are your feeding methodology is. There are people who believe a mixture that is 80/10/10 (meat/bone/organs) is already a nutritionally complete diet and all there is for you to do is to plop it down for your cat to eat.

Some people find that 10% bone is a bit too much for a cat and want to adjust a blend with 10% bone so that it has less bone by adding muscle meat. So that is something to consider.

Then there is the question of whether an 80/10/10 actually is nutritionally complete or actually isn't and requires some added nutrient supplements to make it nutritionally complete. If you fall into this camp, the question is how to determine what supplementation is needed. Just a few things or everything needed to make it comply with AAFCO recommendations.

None of that probably helps answer your question but hopefully it helps you understand the additional information we need to answer.

Oh, specifically about feeding your cat the same blend as your dog, dogs generally tolerate higher bone content than cats. Or so I'm told. I don't have a dog. And I would be wary of accepting the stores claim of 10% bone. It could be more a guess than a known quantity.

 

[backyardzoo]

I am just trying to make sure that they are not missing any nutrients, I don't think it hurts to add extra vitamins of the water soluble type it is the fat soluble ones I get nervous about.

My one girl only eats rabbit and we add Taurine to it and as well as the chicken the younger one gets just to make sure they get enough as that one is the most important from my understanding. It's the Vitamin B, Salmon Oil/Fish Oil, Vitamin E, egg yolk, lite salt etc which are in most of the recipes I've looked at when grinding yourself that I'm not sure if I should be adding as well or the amounts of those. I do think some supplementation is probably necessary especially with inside only cats, but I can see why people just feed canned or the commercially ready to eat frozen raw when trying to figure it out.

The bone content is at the next concern and how much none-bone meat and organs to add to dilute it more...

 

[mschauer]

I have a calculator that will tell you how much muscle meat and/or organs to add to a mix that includes bone to get it down to the bone content you want : Dilute Bone Content

When you say she only eats rabbit, is it whole body rabbit or just rabbit muscle meat? And you are feeding a ground food? So the liver is already ground up and mixed in with the meat?

It is more difficult over consume even fat soluble vitamins than most people think. There is a pretty large margin for error.

 

[backyardzoo]

Thanks for the link

The rabbit she likes the best is a ground product with bone and some organs. She will also eat the Carnivora rabbit patties.
I am unfortunately very limited on options I can get for rabbit in the raw as the other choice I can get is an obvious dog aimed food - K-9 Choice Little Guys Rabbit which is ground with bone/organs but also has carrots, romaine, spinach, broccoli, green beans, celery, apples, pears, strawberries and blueberries. There may be one more choice in Pets Go Raw but it was almost the same price as the freeze-dried.

Rabbit has been our starting point for trying to figure out her allergies so she is limited on what she will and can eat.

 

[dhammagirl]

Have you considered using a supplement pre-mix like Alnutrin or TC Feline?
Then you just need to add it to the ground mix of meat, organs, and bone. If it’s a boneless mix, get a supplement mix with added calcium.


I had my cat on the 80/10/10 whole carcass ground rabbit, but it turned out to be just a bit too much bone for him, and he eventually got constipated. So now I add some meat and organs to get the bone percentage down to around 7%.

Watch the poops!

 

[mschauer]

I see. Well, it is difficult to answer the question of whether she is missing any nutrients without knowing exactly what she is eating. And even with knowing exactly what she is eating you would get a variety of opinions as to what needs to be added. I'm in the "get at least close to AAFCO recommendations" camp and would suggest more supplementation than someone in the "80/10/10" camp. Those are the two extremes. There are also people in between.

Best is to post exactly what she is eating, including what organs in what quantities, and then get opinions on what might be changed.

 

[backyardzoo]

Still waiting to hear back from companies, though I have done some digging and found the following:

Kitten can eat chicken which is why I have both the chicken varieties I order for the dog on here. My cuddle cat only gets rabbit and these are the brands I have access to.

CCD(this brand is what my dog eats)
Chicken 80/10/10 -Ingredients:
Ground Chicken, Ground Chicken Bone, Ground Chicken Organ Blend
(organ blend: liver 50%, lung, heart, gizzard)
OR
Chicken 60/10/30
Ground Chicken with Bone, Ground Chicken Organ Blend, Ground Vegetable and Fruit Blend
(organ blend: liver 50%, lung, heart, gizzard)
(vegetable and fruit blend: carrots, lettuce, squash, apple, banana)

Waiting on their rabbit info, other than ground rabbit/bone with some organs

Carnivora
Rabbit Whole Animal Diet Patties
Finely ground whole rabbit: meat, bones, heart, kidney, liver.

K-9 Choice Little Guys(Dog geared) - Rabbit
Whole organic rabbit triple ground with bone, organs, carrots, romaine, spinach, broccoli, green beans, celery, apples, pears, strawberries and blueberries

Pets Go Raw (Dog geared) - Rabbit
Meat, Organ, Carrots, Apples, Pumpkin, Zucchini, Eggs With Shells, Kelp

From research I have done the chicken needs a slightly different supplementation than the rabbit?

 

[mschauer]

I would use Dr. Pierson's suggested supplements with the CCD 80/10/10 : Making Cat Food

The supplements I use in my chicken recipe are similar to Dr P's but I add about 30 mg manganese per 10 1/2 lbs meat and organs to get it closer to the AAFCO recommendations. And you could use my calculator to see how to gt the bone lower than 10% if that is what you want.

I'm confused by the Carnivora rabbit nutritional data. It says that product contains 0.01% calcium and 0.15% phosphorus. That would be a ratio of 0.07:1. That can't be right. The nutrient data for their duck and turkey whole body patties have Ca of 2:1 and 1.8:1 respectively. Those are a bit higher than I would want but are at least believable. Maybe you can check with Carnivora to see if that data is flawed?

Whole body rabbit is theoretically nutritionally complete. But rabbit is naturally low in taurine and even minimum processing can cause loss of enough that taurine supplementation is usually recommended. I would think the same amount as is used in Dr P's recipe should be sufficient.

Frankly I don't know what to say about the foods that contain vegetables and fruits. Raw feeders commonly say cats can't don't need them but they do provide some nutrients. I don't use them though so haven't really researched which nutrients they do provide and in what quantity.

 

[backyardzoo]

Thanks for the input. I did start adding Taurine to both cats foods once I stopped feeding canned on a regular basis. I'll start adding other supplements to his chicken as well.

I'll contact Carnivora and see if that is accurate.

I try to avoid feeding the veggie mixes but with rabbit being harder to find and that is the only protein she can eat (so far that is, we avoid birds and fish protein as they seem to be triggers for her to puke more often/scratch her face off) but sometimes we have no choice if the plain is not available.

 

[mschauer]

Personally I think cats benefit a lot more from the inclusion of produce ingredients than what most raw feeders believe. I don't include them primarily because I don't think they are necessary and it is more work to use them.

 

[backyardzoo]

I can see why people who raw feed cats are against the vegetables/fruits considering they are obligate carnivores. I'm not going to worry about having to feed my girl(or kitten considering he will steal the dogs food if he gets the chance) that occasionally. She has had such a rough go with food trials I'm just happy that rabbit works for her for the most part.

Have you considered using a supplement pre-mix like Alnutrin or TC Feline?
Then you just need to add it to the ground mix of meat, organs, and bone. If it’s a boneless mix, get a supplement mix with added calcium.

I've looked at the pre-mixes, think only the one I found works with a bone-in mix and it had egg yolk in it. We are still working on my girls allergies and not sure if she reacts to egg. We are pretty sure she does to chicken(duck as well so we avoiding bird protein right now). I'm in the process of slowly introducing things to her to see if she reacts or not but egg is on the list to try.

 

[mschauer]

I can see why people who raw feed cats are against the vegetables/fruits considering they are obligate carnivores.

All being an obligate carnivore means is that there are some nutrients they must get from meat and can get all nutrients they need from meat. It doesn't mean there aren't some nutrients they can get from non-meat sources.

 

[backyardzoo]

Oh I agree there are some nutrients a cat can probably get from other sources rather than just meat. They may not be as readily available is all I think what most thoughts are with those.

Just like I'm really hoping my girl can handle salmon/fish oil, krill oil or green lipped mussel oil for her Omega's as I honestly don't know what I would be able to give her if she reacts to all of those.

 

[mschauer]

Oh I agree there are some nutrients a cat can probably get from other sources rather than just meat. They may not be as readily available is all I think what most thoughts are with those..

Unfortunately quite a few raw feeders believe cats cannot derive any nutritional benefit at all from plant based sources. I'm glad to know you aren't one of them.

 

[lisahe]

Unfortunately quite a few raw feeders believe cats cannot derive any nutritional benefit at all from plant based sources. I'm glad to know you aren't one of them.

Even though a lot of people on the site feed Primal, I do sometimes feel like I'm one of the few people in this forum who doesn't think Primal foods are a sign of the apocalypse or something!

I'm willing to feed small amounts of plant matter if it's included for nutrients and isn't carby. (I draw the line at carrots, not feeding them.) Maybe I'm too trustful of AAFCO but I have to figure that if they allow Primal's plant-based nutrients to meet the rules, they can't be totally worthless to cats. That said, I think I share backyardzoo 's thoughts on the possibility that they might have more limited availability.

 

[mschauer]

That said, I think I share backyardzoo 's thoughts on the possibility that they might have more limited availability.

Sure. But the thing is the nutrients in food are only partially available to all mammals. Including humans. We don't absorb 100% of the nutrients in our food. But, some nutrients in plant based foods are even less available to cats than to non-carnivore mammals.

 

[backyardzoo]

I think that is one reason people are surprised that there are vegan cat and dog foods. I personally don't agree with those unless there is some reason for feeding them like your pet is allergic to the world basically and can only eat that.

I heard back from CCD on their rabbit, it is a whole rabbit grind with approx 10% organ. I did ask if the thyroid was included as I seem to recall something I read about if it was don't add the lite salt I believe so just waiting on that.

 

[mschauer]

A vegan or vegetarian diet for cats is a whole nuther matter. I would never consider feeding such a diet to a cat.

Did CCD explain how the calcium and phosphorus content could be so low if it is a whole body grind? It seems likely there is an error in the data published on their web site. If it does contain all organs, hopefully without intestines, you probably only need to add taurine. Since their published Ca and P data is suspect, I don't know what to tell you about diluting the bone. That data indicates there is very little bone but a whole body rabbit would not be so low in bone.

Yes, the lite salt called for in many recipes is actually for the iodine it contains. Thyroid is a rich source of iodine and so if that product contains thyroid you don't need the lite salt. Iodine is one of the nutrients we want to be very careful about not over supplementing.

 

[backyardzoo]

With the thyroid, was that only a concern with rabbit or should I be looking into it with the chicken as well?

Still waiting on Carnivora on the ratio, they took a few days last time I emailed to respond so expecting the same.