questions about mixed wet & raw diet

[irinasak]

In need of some advice again, please.

Sophie is a challenge once more. Since I opened this thread almost a month ago there has been some progress - she eats chicken breast (ground or finely chopped), chicken hearts and chicken gizzards. She does not eat chicken liver or pork (although I am not sure about pork yet as the one I served her had Felini supplement). I have not tried other proteins yet. Oh, and she hates egg yolks and whites, of course, and she can sense ANYTHING I add to her food.

The thing it... she hates Felini. Of course Felini is the easy way, as it would make the meals complete without needing bone or liver, but.. she will not touch the food, no matter the toppers.

I will try the eggshells next, but I need a B plan and a C plan and a D plan... only for the calcium. I dread to think about other vitamins I am supposed to add to her food.

The closest thing to bonemeal I can find is this: http://www.zooplus.com/shop/dogs/supplements_specialty_food/bones_joints/hokamix/129102

Although there are some NOW foods available, no NOW bonemeal, only: NOW Calcium Citrate and NOW Calcium and Magnesium. Similar stuff available from Puritan's Pride. Could these work?

I guess that Sophie eating chicken breast, hearts and gizzards is progress enough, but balancing is a PIA.

Harley and Amelie, on the other hand, inhale their raw food with Felini, without Felini, pork, chicken, hearts, whatever, as long as it is raw.

 

[peaches08]

I'd try TC Feline. Mine went crazy over the stuff. Some members here didn't have the same experience, but it's worth a try.

 

[irinasak]

I'd try TC Feline. Mine went crazy over the stuff. Some members here didn't have the same experience, but it's worth a try.

Thank you for the reply. I was reluctant because of not-so-awsome reviews, but at this point I am willing to give anything a try. Sophie is a very thin cat, still at a healthy weight but I can not have her lose weight or be malnourished, so I have to find a way to make her eat the supplements.

And if things weren't complicated enough, Amelie seems to be on a hunger strike. She will not eat canned anymore, only raw. I know it is not a health issue as she inhales the raw barely chewing it and she purrs while she eats, and she wants more. I am just not ready for a full transition.

(but Amelie and Harley lived on the streets for 3 months and a half, so they probably ate while being ferals mice and birds and crickets. Sophie ate mostly only kibble for the first year of her life).

 

[peaches08]

I foolishly left the new trial size bags by the microwave...they opened the bags and had powder all over the counter, stove, and floor. :lol3:

 

[irinasak]

I foolishly left the new trial size bags by the microwave...they opened the bags and had powder all over the counter, stove, and floor. :lol3:

Oh, my, that must have been a mess :lol3:

Well, mine don't seem to like turkey. That is so weird as Harley would eat anything. Maybe there was something wrong with the meat...

 

[peaches08]

Mine went crazy over the smell of turkey, but then didn't want to eat it. I looked at the label later and it was enhanced meat, so that might have been part of it.

 

[irinasak]

So almost two weeks later, almost no progress with Sophie. She will eat chicken breast, chicken gizzards and chicken hearts. She will NOT eat chicken wings, thighs, liver, pork, turkey or rabbit. I have not tried anything else yet, other organs or proteins. Out of the 0.8 grams of Felini she should have with a meal, she will eat the meat if there's maybe 0.2 grams, but not more. I know she is hungry and she refuses to eat so I get emotional and give her kibble. I feel I am in a vicious circle, as long as I feed her kibble I will not see any progress, but she goes in this hunger strikes and she is so thin I just can't see her lose any more weight.

Harley and Amelie are champs. After a first failed attempt with chicken wings, they had another try last night and ate the entire smallest piece of the wing. Me and Sophie were staring at them while they were eating the bone. Tonight they had rabbit for the first time and they loved it. I think I am going to go Frankenprey with them when I'll feel I'm ready.

 

[irinasak]

Hello again TCS,

Please help me figure out how much bones weigh. I am terrible at deboning (so I can weigh just the bones) and I didn't manage to find info about bones and weigh. Any link would be greatly appreciated. Harley and Amelie discovered they CAN actually eat chicken wings so I really want to feed them bones, not eggshells or calcium or bonemeal, but I did not figure yet how much bone I should feed ( I know 7-10 %, about 15.6 grams/day or about 110 grams/week, but how much bone is that?). I can source almost any type of bone recommended for cats - chicken wings, necks and ribs, cirnish hen, quail, rabbit ribs.

 

[mschauer]

You might find these links helpful:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263570/composition-of-proteins-bone-skin-fat

http://www.abyssiniancats.info/bonesinchickens.php

 

[irinasak]

 
You might find these links helpful:

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/263570/composition-of-proteins-bone-skin-fat

http://www.abyssiniancats.info/bonesinchickens.php

 Thank you for the links! I will make my homework

 

[irinasak]

Another two weeks later:

First of all, we are totally kibble free for almost two weeks, Sophie too!

They are having three meals a day, at 9 am, 7 pm and 11 pm.

On Tuesdays, Thursdays, Saturdays and Sundays the 7 pm meal is raw. On Sunday the 11 pm meal is also raw. The rest are wet. I really don't know where I am going but I am in no hurry (wet % and raw%).

I know that some of you guys that transitioned from wet to raw mixed the foods at the same meal, but I started in the beginning by putting a meal of 100% raw and, as Harley and Amelie took to it with no problems and because Sophie doesn't eat food that has been messed with, I haven't been feeding raw and wet at the same meal. And it seems to be working just fine.

Harley and Amelie eat beef, veal, pork (as lean as I can get them), turkey, chicken and rabbit, turkey and chicken hearts and gizzards as muscle meats. Harley eats chicken liver, Amelie doesn't. They both eat chicken and rabbit bones. I also have in the fridge for them pork kidney, pork liver, rabbit liver. I can source pork heart, pork brain, beef tripe and probably more stuff that doesn't come to mind now.

Sophie eats (or should I say "ate at least once") chicken, turkey and rabbit, chicken hearts and gizzards. She doesn't eat anything else yet - turkey hearts or gizzards, pork, beef, bones or liver. But hey, two weeks ago she wouldn't eat turkey or rabbit! With her it is very arbitrary - one meal she eats it all, one meal she doesn't touch it. I haven't figured it out yet what triggers it. I am also concerned about her meals not being balanced, because if she feels too much Felini si doesn't eat. I will figure her out eventually, I have many things to try: eggshells, Grau bonemeal, calcium supplements, TC Feline. It would be great to make her eat TC Feline or Felini as I wouldn't have to worry about bones and liver. It would be greater if she would just eat them as Harley does.

Question of the day:

Amelie will not have chicken liver, but will have freeze dried chicken and beef liver. If I am not mistaken, @LDG feeds dry liver to those kitties that would not have fresh liver? Could you please tell me how to calculate the equivalent of freeze dried and fresh liver? I remember reading something about moisture and dry matter analysis of dried liver versus fresh liver, but I can not remember where.

 

[mschauer]

Question of the day:

Amelie will not have chicken liver, but will have freeze dried chicken and beef liver. If I am not mistaken, @LDG feeds dry liver to those kitties that would not have fresh liver? Could you please tell me how to calculate the equivalent of freeze dried and fresh liver? I remember reading something about moisture and dry matter analysis of dried liver versus fresh liver, but I can not remember where.

I show how to do determine the freeze dried equivalent of fresh here:

 http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264261/calculations-for-dried-liver-as-part-of-frankenprey#post_3404019

 

[irinasak]

 
I show how to do determine the freeze dried equivalent of fresh here:

my, those are a lot of numbers!

at least I understand the conclusions!

Thank you very much!

I have this: http://www.zooplus.com/shop/cats/cat_treats_catnip/cat_snacks/thrive/127344 (chicken liver) and this: http://www.zooplus.com/shop/dogs/dog_treats_chews/soft_treats/thrive/277345

ETA: And what's the thing with taking the food out of the bowl? Amelie is taking it out and eating it right next to the bowl, but Harley likes to eat on the carpet, it seems

Is it a hunter's thing, I guess? I see that the bigger the piece, the further away they take it...

 

[mschauer]

 http://www.zooplus.com/shop/dogs/dog_treats_chews/soft_treats/thrive/277345

Using that and the 76% moisture for chicken liver from the USDA database and assuming we want the equivalent of 6 oz of fresh liver:

WM - 0.76 (76%)

WA = 6

DM = 0 .046 (4.6%)

DA = ( (1 - 0.76) * 6) / (1 - 0.046)

      = ( 0.24 * 6) / 0,954

      = 1.44 / 0.954

      = 1.5

So 1.5 oz of that product is the equivalent to 6 oz of fresh liver.

 

[irinasak]

Thank you, @mschauer!

Today I gave them a bite of veal liver and veal kidney. Harley ate them and I could swear this guy either doesn't have taste buds as he would eat anything, either he loves food more than life itself.

It was no surprise that Sophie didn't touch them, but I thought Amelie would eat at least one of the two. She eats any kind of meat and bones, but it seems I am having problems making her eat organs. She eats freeze dried liver, but I can't get her to eat fresh chicken liver, veal liver or veal kidney.

Today's meal was pork and rabbit for Harley and Amelie and chicken and rabbit for Sophie. Sophie ate about 2 oz, but covered in freeze dried chicken.

 

[irinasak]

Tonight Sophie received chicken and turkey with Felini (some sort of Alnutrin) and ate 2 oz. On a separate bowl I put some chicken liver and kidney veal and she did not touch it.

Harley had chicken, chicken liver, a tiny bit - like three bites of veal liver and three bites of veal kidney.

Amelie had the same as Harley, but she needed some dried tuna sprinkled on the organs. At least she ate it like that

So we are still at 4-5 meals/week of raw (Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday and Sunday). Sometimes I would feed them two meals of raw on Sunday. I mix Sophie's raw meals with Felini as she will not have bones or liver, but I am still hoping. She is very unpredictable, she turns her nose at something one day and the next day she decides she loves it (like turkey hearts, lately). Harley and Amelie's meals have organs and bones too, no Felini. I am still having a difficult time weighing the bones, but I am doing my best to balance them properly. They all get probiotics. Sophie also has SEB twice a week and krill oil every other day. H & A also have lysine daily and salmon oil every other day.

 

[irinasak]

Another two weeks, but with great results this time.

Most important, we are at 7 meals/week of raw. So balancing them is a priority now.

Harley eats anything, so he gets frankenprey.
Amelie eats almost everything, but she is not very fond of liver (chicken, turkey, veal or rabbit. Will try duck tomorrow). She will eat the fresh liver if it is covered in freeze dried liver, though. She is funny like that. She eats kidney better than liver. She gets frankenprey.

Sophie will eat like a champ IF I do not mix the meat with Felini (which would make the meat complete). She will not eat liver, kidney or bones (bones she tried, maybe there's still hope). BUT she eats very well with MCHA (Now, bless iherb for delivering to Ro). Haven't tried eggshell yet or bonemeal (commercial for pets, Grau). @LDG helped me figure out how to measure proper amounts of cod oil for Sophie. Question: do you have any ideas how I can make her eat liver? She doesn't touch chicken, turkey, veal or rabbit liver. Griding is not an option - I mean I have the tools to mush up liver even more than it is, but she'll smell it and refuse the meal. Other than code oil or pure vitamins, is there an alternative to liver (should I risk sourcing brain, pancreas, lungs and other gross stuff?) Is glandular complex (like the one on catnutrition) an alternative?

 

[vball91]

What about freeze-dried liver? Will she eat that at all? There's a thread about figuring out the equivalent amount of FD to fresh.

I do think the glandular complex can be used as a supplement, but I can't remember where that was discussed.

 

[irinasak]

No, she will not eat freeze dried - chicken or beef liver.

 

[irinasak]

So no ideas in how to make a cat eat liver?

My weirdish cat (yes, Sophie) eats beef flavored canned food, but not raw beef. However, she seems to like goat and goatling (or how do you call young goat). She is beyond my power of comprehension.