Pondering Raw...

[bluebo]

I'm thinking of transitioning my cat Bo to raw. I have been going through nothing but hell with trying to find canned food that are healthy and my cat actually likes...
Locally I have this company available- http://www.springmeadowsnaturalpetfood.com/site_map.php
I also have Carnivora and I think it's called Natural Instincts raw.
Can I just feed ground meat with a calcium/taurine supplement? Anyone with a good supplement suggestion (available in stores)?

 

[carolina]

I'm thinking of transitioning my cat Bo to raw. I have been going through nothing but hell with trying to find canned food that are healthy and my cat actually likes...
Locally I have this company available- http://www.springmeadowsnaturalpetfood.com/site_map.php
I also have Carnivora and I think it's called Natural Instincts raw.
Can I just feed ground meat with a calcium/taurine supplement? Anyone with a good supplement suggestion (available in stores)?

Hi Bluebo!
I am SO thrilled to see you here!! Welcome to the raw forum!
First of all, BIG congrats on transitioning Bo to 100% wet - I know you struggled for a while - HUGE accomplishment! :bigthumb:

Yes, it is hard to find the perfect food...... There is none. Raw comes close though, IMHO. It is, I think, the healthiest one :nod:
With that said, with the past history of constipation you had with Bo, and the fact that he went to chicken wings and wouldn't accept other cuts of meat when you tried a home made diet, I do think starting with a balanced ground diet is a smart move :nod:

So....... you have some options to look at :nod:
Carnivora is a great food IMHO. I don't know the price - what you need to calculate is the fed price though. Feeding canned is not that cheap either. And when feeding raw, you don't feed the same amount of food. How much does Bo weight? A good amount to start is 3% of his weight a day.
The range is 2-4%, but honestly 4% is way too much IMHO. my babies here eat in between 2.3 and 1.7% Bugsy eats 1.7 because he is on a diet.

It ends up being considerably less than canned :nod: After you calculate that, the cost of Carnivora might not be higher.....
Carnivora has bones, and you are afraid of bones..... I know
The problem is NOT bones, but HOW MUCH bones. NV Is known for having too much bones. Carnivora has whole carcasses, and seems to be well balanced.
You can have the same constipation issues with too much calcium, if it is highly supplemented, but if you want to stay away from bones, you can go with Natural Instincts.....
Or, of course, you can also make your own ground food, but for that you would need to invest in a grinder and supplements and that involves an initial investment.

It is not a good idea to buy ground meat from the market for different reasons..... One is that you don't know how clean the grinder is. The blades might be harboring bacteria, and into the meat they go. Also, the bacterial load is on the top of the meat - once you grind, you are tossing it into the meat. And the longer it is defrosted ground the more the bacteria is breading into the meat
The other problem, is that by grinding you are increasing the surface area and increasing the oxidation that depletes the taurine in the meat.... All of those reasons make it a

Another option..... Is doing what Laurie and I do - we feed chunks of meat - boneless - and we supplement the calcium, the taurine, the omega3, etc.
There are a couple of supplements, one in Canada, that will turn plain muscle meat (such as chicken meat, beef chunks, lamb, pork meat) into 100% balanced meals. I use one here for Hope, since she doesn't like organ meats - the one I use is made by Wysong, and called Call of the Wild. It is GREAT. All you do is serve a variety of meats :nod: and sprinkle 1/2 teaspoon of it on the top of it..... She does VERY well on it.

For the other cats, I use eggshell powder as calcium, Krill oil as Omega 3, Taurine powder once a day, and freeze dry liver as their liver.....
And all variety of meats as they can eat - lamb, venison, chicken, turkey, turkey and duck hearts and pork. I am now going to introduce veal.

The way I see, you do have quite a few choices in Canada - I will find a thread for you - I will be back with more choices - hang on

 

[carolina]

Ok, here is the thread with the raw suppliers in Canada: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/248687/canadian-raw-food-suppliers

 

[bluebo]

I'm still on the fence about whether a switch to raw is in the cards for me. If I do decide to go that route you have provided me with plenty to research before I make the switch! I appreciate that!
I love the idea of raw but there are some factors that are causing me to hesitate...
I'll look into the Carnivora and Carolina you will be the first to know if I decide to make the leap! :nod:
Thank you so much for all of your support!
Switching Bo to canned has been a hassle but we accomplished it so now I know that switching from canned to raw wouldn't be as difficult as kibble to canned! :lol3:
I'll look into the Carnivora and if I decide to make the switch I will bump up this thread!
Again, thanks all for everything!!

 

[ldg]

I didn't keep up with your switching to canned thread, but just wanted to pop in here and say and congrats on the switch to wet food! I know you worked hard at it, so big kudos on getting there! :bigthumb:

I remember you said he only liked raw with bone... in that case, you might want to consider providing meat with the TCFeline premix. They have one with liver, so you can make just meat complete. It uses freeze dried bone as the calcium supplement, so he may really like it! It's a Canadian company. OH! And it has a fiber in it, so it might be JUST what he needs! :dk: Just a thought.

My cancer kitty, Lazlo, had issues with constipation. I use the Wysong Call of the Wild for him (just the supplement and meat!). It's got prebiotics, probiotics, antioxidants, and something in there is a kind of fiber, because his poop volume is larger than the other raw fed kitties, but he is very nice and regular. :nod: Seems the TCFeline would be similar.


http://tcfeline.com/

 

[carolina]

I didn't keep up with your switching to canned thread, but just wanted to pop in here and say and congrats on the switch to wet food! I know you worked hard at it, so big kudos on getting there! :bigthumb:
I remember you said he only liked raw with bone... in that case, you might want to consider providing meat with the TCFeline premix. They have one with liver, so you can make just meat complete. It uses freeze dried bone as the calcium supplement, so he may really like it! It's a Canadian company. OH! And it has a fiber in it, so it might be JUST what he needs! :dk: Just a thought.
My cancer kitty, Lazlo, had issues with constipation. I use the Wysong Call of the Wild for him (just the supplement and meat!). It's got prebiotics, probiotics, antioxidants, and something in there is a kind of fiber, because his poop volume is larger than the other raw fed kitties, but he is very nice and regular. :nod: Seems the TCFeline would be similar.
http://tcfeline.com/

that would make your life super easy, and feeding raw totally guess free!
Blue, I know you are not ready to take the jump, but for the sake of comparison, how much are you spending on Canned right now, and how much does he weight?
Any idea on the cost of carnivora?

 

[feralvr]

Oooooooooo.... this is so great to see your thread, Bluebo. The first part of the transition is the "thinking about it" part. I was the same way and I have found throughout this whole transition process that it does come in stages and small steps. Both for our kitties and for ourselves. Welcome to the beginning stage :bigthumb:

 

[bluebo]

I didn't keep up with your switching to canned thread, but just wanted to pop in here and say and congrats on the switch to wet food! I know you worked hard at it, so big kudos on getting there! :bigthumb:
I remember you said he only liked raw with bone... in that case, you might want to consider providing meat with the TCFeline premix. They have one with liver, so you can make just meat complete. It uses freeze dried bone as the calcium supplement, so he may really like it! It's a Canadian company. OH! And it has a fiber in it, so it might be JUST what he needs! :dk: Just a thought.
My cancer kitty, Lazlo, had issues with constipation. I use the Wysong Call of the Wild for him (just the supplement and meat!). It's got prebiotics, probiotics, antioxidants, and something in there is a kind of fiber, because his poop volume is larger than the other raw fed kitties, but he is very nice and regular. :nod: Seems the TCFeline would be similar.
http://tcfeline.com/

Thanks for the well wishes! We did have quite the time transitioning him but I was thinking it was honestly the dish I was feeding his food in (stainless steel bowl). When I switched him over to a porcelain saucer he started eating his wet pretty easily (as well as not keeping kibble around).
I will definitely look into TCFeline premix! I don't know if it is available in my province but I will definitely be looking into all of the pre-made raws (I did the PMR thing with my dog and it was so bloody overwhelming that I just couldn't handle it anymore, plus the results were less then desirable).
Again, thanks for the support

 

[bluebo]

that would make your life super easy, and feeding raw totally guess free!
Blue, I know you are not ready to take the jump, but for the sake of comparison, how much are you spending on Canned right now, and how much does he weight?
Any idea on the cost of carnivora?

I am spending upwards of $50 per month on just my cat. He was almost 8 pounds at his last vet check up. I haven't looked up the cost of Carnivora but I will be next weekend (we live 45 minutes out of the closest city and we don't go in that often lol).

 

[bluebo]

Oooooooooo.... this is so great to see your thread, Bluebo. The first part of the transition is the "thinking about it" part. I was the same way and I have found throughout this whole transition process that it does come in stages and small steps. Both for our kitties and for ourselves. Welcome to the beginning stage :bigthumb:

Yes I think my pondering may just be the first step to raw! I am sick and tired of carrageenan LOL!
I find cat foods without carrageenan and A. My cat hates it or B. there is some other questionable ingredient (clay) C. It is expensive as h***
I have honestly felt like pulling my hair out.
Raw might be just the answer we are looking for so I am going to continue my pondering... lol :nod:

 

[carolina]

I am spending upwards of $50 per month on just my cat. He was almost 8 pounds at his last vet check up. I haven't looked up the cost of Carnivora but I will be next weekend (we live 45 minutes out of the closest city and we don't go in that often lol).

For 8lbs at 3% a day, he would need only about 3.84oz of raw a day - not that much at all..... You see.... it is quite a bit less than canned :nod:

Yes I think my pondering may just be the first step to raw! I am sick and tired of carrageenan LOL!
I find cat foods without carrageenan and A. My cat hates it or B. there is some other questionable ingredient (clay) C. It is expensive as h***
I have honestly felt like pulling my hair out.
Raw might be just the answer we are looking for so I am going to continue my pondering... lol :nod:

Raw definitely gives you way more control, if you chose commercial, or almost full control, if you go home-made :nod: You definitely can have a very very clean diet - no additives, no veggies, nothing the kitty doesn't need. The difference shows in the litterbox (actually doesn't, as there is very little waste!) :nod:
The difference you see in the cat is pretty amazing too..... I was feeding some canned and dry - although I was feeding prescription on both counts, I can tell you I am saving a boatload of $$$. If you put together the vet bills..... Whoa!

 

[bluebo]

For 8lbs at 3% a day, he would need only about 3.84oz of raw a day - not that much at all..... You see.... it is quite a bit less than canned :nod:
Raw definitely gives you way more control, if you chose commercial, or almost full control, if you go home-made :nod: You definitely can have a very very clean diet - no additives, no veggies, nothing the kitty doesn't need. The difference shows in the litterbox (actually doesn't, as there is very little waste!) :nod:
The difference you see in the cat is pretty amazing too..... I was feeding some canned and dry - although I was feeding prescription on both counts, I can tell you I am saving a boatload of $$$. If you put together the vet bills..... Whoa!

That's what I like about the idea of a raw diet. I am scared that I will make his constipation bad again I mean he literally bled every time he had a bowel movement.... almost was at risk for mega colon I have no doubt!
I'll definitely bump this thread up when I know more!

 

[bluebo]

It looks like, with Carnivora, that I still have to add taurine?? Where do I get taurine?

 

[carolina]

That's what I like about the idea of a raw diet. I am scared that I will make his constipation bad again I mean he literally bled every time he had a bowel movement.... almost was at risk for mega colon I have no doubt!
I'll definitely bump this thread up when I know more!

No hun he got like that because he was only getting chicken wings..... That is WAY too much bones - way, way too much :nod:
In a frankerprey diet for example, he would get bone meals 3 times a week - you were feeding 50% bones, when the correct percentage is 10% :nod:
There was no way he wouldn't be constipated.... But in a balanced diet, with the correct amount of bones, that won't happen

 

[ldg]

I use a U.S. equivalent, Hare-Today. These are also whole ground animal. (I also make homemade, but I feed a couple meals a week of the Hare Today).

I add a probiotic (acidophilus+bifidus, 10 billion CFU, a human supplement) daily in the morning. I recommend this for every cat, regardless of diet.

Taurine can be purchased at any supplement store, or health food store. I buy 1,000mg capsules and split it between 8 cats, but you could provide 1/4 of a capsule daily. It's water soluble, and one of the amino acids that is VERY difficult to provide too much of.

Another supplement to consider, especially since he's had issues with constipation, is egg yolk lecithin. Again, you can probably find this at a health food store, or they should be able to order it for you. I use this one: (I think this is a product that can be shipped to Canada).

By providing this, it has pretty much resolved the hairball issues of my kitties. :nod: (It emulsifies the fat that binds up the hair in their tummies). The REALLY nice thing about egg yolk lecithin is that it also helps prevent constipation! Two of my cats have had issues with constipation in the past, and by providing 1/2 capsule 2x a week, this has also kept everyone nice and regular.

Finally, another supplement I recommend for a cat on ANY diet is a fish-based omega 3 supplement. You can either feed him a tinned sardine (salt, no water) twice a week, or provide a high quality fish oil supplement (500mg) once a day. I use salmon oil for four of the cats and NOW Neptune krill oil for four of the cats. The krill oil seems to have benefits above and beyond the salmon oil. One of my kitties has arthritis in her hips, and the difference between salmon oil and krill oil are really noticeable. (She's leaping around almost like a kitten again!). I also give it to my cancer kitty, my FIV+ kitty, and the kitty that is on a diet.

The nice thing is that the egg yolk lecithin also helps improve the "uptake" of the omega 3 supplement.

So while 3 of these supplements are something I'd be using when feeding anything, they'll all work together to help ensure he doesn't have an issue with constipation. (Even though when providing the correct amount of bone in the diet, he shouldn't have a problem anyway! )

 

[carolina]

It looks like, with Carnivora, that I still have to add taurine?? Where do I get taurine?

It should be complete, but they are not listing the levels in it..... Why don't you contact them and ask? In any case, Taurine is eassily purchased online or in healthy stores, and cheap - a little goes a long way.......
The one I buy is NOW Brand - powder - 1000mgs per 1/4 tsp. It last months and months...... for three cats..... Like almost a year really :nod:
You only give 1/16tsp a day :nod:

EDIT: Here is the link for it NOW Taurine Powder

 

[bluebo]

No hun he got like that because he was only getting chicken wings..... That is WAY too much bones - way, way too much :nod:
In a frankerprey diet for example, he would get bone meals 3 times a week - you were feeding 50% bones, when the correct percentage is 10% :nod:
There was no way he wouldn't be constipated.... But in a balanced diet, with the correct amount of bones, that won't happen

I was meaning that his constipation was that severe on just kibble. I wasn't talking about raw in that statement

 

[bluebo]

I use a U.S. equivalent, Hare-Today. These are also whole ground animal. (I also make homemade, but I feed a couple meals a week of the Hare Today).
I add a probiotic (acidophilus+bifidus, 10 billion CFU, a human supplement) daily in the morning. I recommend this for every cat, regardless of diet.
Taurine can be purchased at any supplement store, or health food store. I buy 1,000mg capsules and split it between 8 cats, but you could provide 1/4 of a capsule daily. It's water soluble, and one of the amino acids that is VERY difficult to provide too much of.
Another supplement to consider, especially since he's had issues with constipation, is egg yolk lecithin. Again, you can probably find this at a health food store, or they should be able to order it for you. I use this one: (I think this is a product that can be shipped to Canada).
By providing this, it has pretty much resolved the hairball issues of my kitties. :nod: (It emulsifies the fat that binds up the hair in their tummies). The REALLY nice thing about egg yolk lecithin is that it also helps prevent constipation! Two of my cats have had issues with constipation in the past, and by providing 1/2 capsule 2x a week, this has also kept everyone nice and regular.
Finally, another supplement I recommend for a cat on ANY diet is a fish-based omega 3 supplement. You can either feed him a tinned sardine (salt, no water) twice a week, or provide a high quality fish oil supplement (500mg) once a day. I use salmon oil for four of the cats and NOW Neptune krill oil for four of the cats. The krill oil seems to have benefits above and beyond the salmon oil. One of my kitties has arthritis in her hips, and the difference between salmon oil and krill oil are really noticeable. (She's leaping around almost like a kitten again!). I also give it to my cancer kitty, my FIV+ kitty, and the kitty that is on a diet.
The nice thing is that the egg yolk lecithin also helps improve the "uptake" of the omega 3 supplement.
So while 3 of these supplements are something I'd be using when feeding anything, they'll all work together to help ensure he doesn't have an issue with constipation. (Even though when providing the correct amount of bone in the diet, he shouldn't have a problem anyway! )

That is interesting about the probiotic and the egg yolk lecithin... I'll look into those.
I do have a fish oil (it's made by Carnivora). I give it to my dog every day so I could just throw some of that in with his food too! Thanks for the suggestion. It's good to know that taurine is easy to come by, I'll be grabbing some.

 

[bluebo]

It should be complete, but they are not listing the levels in it..... Why don't you contact them and ask? In any case, Taurine is eassily purchased online or in healthy stores, and cheap - a little goes a long way.......
The one I buy is NOW Brand - powder - 1000mgs per 1/4 tsp. It last months and months...... for three cats..... Like almost a year really :nod:
You only give 1/16tsp a day :nod:

I just contacted Carnivora so I will see what they say about taurine levels. If not I will just buy some at the health food store. It seems that I am headed in the raw direction :lol3:
I REALLY hope my cat won't reject raw! Oh man I'm scared lol
Curious... can I mix canned and raw together (to transition him) or would that not be a good idea??

 

[ldg]

That is the perfect way to do it! There are a number of people that feed only partial raw. It's just fine to feed both, or mix them.