Overgrooming / Stress / Protein Intolerance?

[lisahe]

sophie1 your summary of bone in commercial raw food is so apt. There were lots of reasons we stopped feeding it but, sadly, bone was at the top of the list.

 

[ritz]

The tincture has, among other ingredients, valerian (sp) and catnip. Smells awful to me, but my cats seem to like it okay. I've been reading Dr. Pierson's article and was reminded that yes, Ritz did become constipated on Primal raw. I will be speaking to the vet Tuesday (results of blood work) and ask her about how to reduce bone content. I can't source rabbit locally where I am, would have to order from Hare Today. Thanks for the tip about a possible texture issue with freeze-dried raw. Small is better in this case. Thanks again for every person's help.

 

[lisahe]

Interesting that it's a calming blend of herbs! I've thought about trying to feed catnip to Edwina, too, but haven't yet tried it.

Bone can be such a problem! It's necessary and good for them... but there's such a fine line between what works and what doesn't.

 

[sophie1]

Ooh, catnip is great...like weed for cats. I also had tried Jackson galaxy's stress-relieving essence, and amazingly it really helped with my cat who drools like crazy every time he's in a car.

The bone thing is kind of a soap box with me, sorry for hammering on it. It's just that the consequences for my cats have been pretty severe. In some ways it's almost as bad as the melamine disaster, and maybe it's a silent epidemic that no one has detected yet, who knows? Anyway I'm so glad they're doing well now, and more playful than they've been in years.

 

[lisahe]

Ooh, catnip is great...like weed for cats. I also had tried Jackson galaxy's stress-relieving essence, and amazingly it really helped with my cat who drools like crazy every time he's in a car.

The bone thing is kind of a soap box with me, sorry for hammering on it. It's just that the consequences for my cats have been pretty severe. In some ways it's almost as bad as the melamine disaster, and maybe it's a silent epidemic that no one has detected yet, who knows? Anyway I'm so glad they're doing well now, and more playful than they've been in years.

Don't apologize! I'm very similar on the bone question... it's just wrong that so many foods have such ridiculously high bone contents. Our cats loved, really loved, one kind of frozen raw food, all supplemented... but it had something in the 20% range of bone, which is just crazy. I usually checked bone before buying and feeding but was a bit late that time. Fortunately, they'd only had a few small servings!

Good to hear about catnip. I may yet try it out on Edwina. Rescue Remedy works well for her but catnip would be easier and much cheaper.

 

[iPappy]

Don't apologize! I'm very similar on the bone question... it's just wrong that so many foods have such ridiculously high bone contents. Our cats loved, really loved, one kind of frozen raw food, all supplemented... but it had something in the 20% range of bone, which is just crazy. I usually checked bone before buying and feeding but was a bit late that time. Fortunately, they'd only had a few small servings!

Good to hear about catnip. I may yet try it out on Edwina. Rescue Remedy works well for her but catnip would be easier and much cheaper.

IME, a lot of the raw feeding info out there is geared to dogs which in many cases do require a higher bone content. For some reason, people think it applies to cats too. My old cats (11-15 years) get probably 5-6% bone, if that, or else we have issues. Lila seems to do fine with a slightly higher percentage, up to 8%ish. If I find a grind that's 80/10/10, I add more organ blend and muscle meat to it. It might not be "correct" on paper, but, it works for them and keeps them happy.
I'm very interested in the herbal blend as well. Lila is on some herbals and she takes them no problem!

 

[lisahe]

IME, a lot of the raw feeding info out there is geared to dogs which in many cases do require a higher bone content. For some reason, people think it applies to cats too. My old cats (11-15 years) get probably 5-6% bone, if that, or else we have issues. Lila seems to do fine with a slightly higher percentage, up to 8%ish. If I find a grind that's 80/10/10, I add more organ blend and muscle meat to it. It might not be "correct" on paper, but, it works for them and keeps them happy.
I'm very interested in the herbal blend as well. Lila is on some herbals and she takes them no problem!

That dog theory sounds very plausible. (It seems similar to some meds that are trialed on dogs and then used off label for cats, too... Cerenia and Panacur, two of our staples, are labeled for dogs.)

And interesting about bone: Ireland's max was somewhere in the 8-10% range.

Thank goodness for herbals, I don't know what we'd do without Edwina's slippery elm bark and Feline Gut Soothe. I really do need to try giving them both dustings of catnip on their food. They both love the stuff and could certainly stand to relax more!

 

[sophie1]

I wrote to Primal, out of curiousity. They did not want to reveal the exact bone percentages, but indicated that their original recipes are somewhere in the neighborhood of 10% - which says nothing about the recipes they're using now. They did give me a chart indicating the proportion of bone-in meats used in their recipes; the numbers ranged from 20 to 40%. Unfortunately, without knowing how much bone is in those bone-in meats, it's hard to guess how much bone is in the finished recipe. For example, their chicken food contains 40% bone-in chicken. Is that whole chickens? Then that would be 11% bone (chicken is overall 27% bone). But if it's chicken necks and backs, which I bet is more likely, then the bone content would be 15-16%.

In the same response, they indicated that the percentage of vegetables/seeds in their food is 10-20%. Not great, but there are worse implications. I don't like that they insist they're getting the AAFCO-required nutrients from these veggies. Well, no they're not. For example, they probably are claiming the beta carotene in carrots as vitamin A. It's NOT vitamin A!!! It's a precursor that can be converted to vitamin A in the body. Humans are terrible at this (at best maybe 10% is converted) but cats are even worse; they are obligate carnivores and can't do anything with beta carotene, nor the alpha-lineoleic acid in flaxseed oil, or several other plant nutrients. So the food is not only high in bone, it's missing key nutrients. I'm really not a fan!!!

If it works for you and your cats though, great. Definitely keep an eye though and make sure they're not throwing up more than usual and that their poop hasn't turned white. And I would urge feeding it as only part of the diet, or only temporarily while you're getting through this crisis.

 

[lisahe]

And I would urge feeding it as only part of the diet, or only temporarily while you're getting through this crisis.

This is great advice. How frustrating that they're so careless about the data. (Alas, it makes me glad we no longer feed Primal.)

 

[ritz]

Hi. I expressed my concern to the vet about the high bone content in Primal. Years ago when I first started feeding raw I was using a higher end of the guideline and she became constipated. So I reduced it to around 10%.
My vet suggested to try Stella and Chewy freeze dried food, and I will order it shortly. I can only find Primal in the rabbit form at the high end pet food store; I may ask them if they will special order another brand. My vet suggested Instinct.
BTW: the manufacturer of the calming liquid is Rx Vitamins, Inc., and the name is Liquid Nutracalm.
A formula designed to calm & soothe - ideal for small dogs and cats
Liquid NutriCalm is an innovative, salmon-flavored formula ideal for the small-sized patient. The formula features high quality, USP grade L-tryptophan, an essential amino acid, which is converted to serotonin in the brain. L-Theanine, valerian root and ashwagandha also help to soothe and relax naturally, effectively and safely.
4 fl. oz. (120 ml)
2 ml provides:
L-Tryptophan (USP Grade) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 75 mg
L-Theanine (Suntheanine brand). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 mg
Ashwagandha extract (withania somnifera). . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 mg
Catnip extract (nepeta cataria). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 mg
Valerian root extract (valeriana officinalis) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 25 mg
Calcium (as aspartate) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 mg
Magnesium (as aspartate) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 5 mg
Please visit our store for more information.

 

[sophie1]

Yikes. Stella and Chewy's is one of the worst offenders when it comes to high bone content. I haven't investigated that myself, but someone posting here reported that they were in the 20% range.

Primal appears to be the best of a bad lot. Can I ask why you're so determined to feed commercial raw? Are you worried about nutrient deficiencies? I think there is actually less risk of that with homemade - one of my issues with Primal was that they are claiming to use plant sources to meet AAFCO nutrient requirements. Since the plant versions of these nutrients are different from the animal sources, and cats can't typically absorb nutrients from plants, that doesn't sound like a safe plan to me.

 

[lisahe]

Yikes. Stella and Chewy's is one of the worst offenders when it comes to high bone content. I haven't investigated that myself, but someone posting here reported that they were in the 20% range.

Primal appears to be the best of a bad lot. Can I ask why you're so determined to feed commercial raw? Are you worried about nutrient deficiencies? I think there is actually less risk of that with homemade - one of my issues with Primal was that they are claiming to use plant sources to meet AAFCO nutrient requirements. Since the plant versions of these nutrients are different from the animal sources, and cats can't typically absorb nutrients from plants, that doesn't sound like a safe plan to me.

Stella and Chewy's, yes, their levels have been very high: I know at least some of them were in the 20% range when I contacted them about 10 years ago but that may have changed. Their Stella's Selects (they had two: chicken or turkey) had no bone but it looks like they discontinued that line. It's worth checking, though, to see if it's back. It was a bit like Rad Cat. And the cats loved it.

"Best of a bad lot" was one of the big reasons I used to feed lots of Primal. But it seemed like the bone kept ticking up. And that was a problem. I also fed some other foods, including some frozen patties, Tucker's, which had some bone (I don't remember how much) as well as pumpkin, apparently to help mitigate the bone. In the end, I just cut all the raw food, less because our vet at the time disapproved of it than because there were so many extraneous things -- pumpkin and probiotics among them -- added to the foods that it got hard to keep track of what was in which food in what quantities. And so now the diet is canned food and homemade cooked food, plus some dry food for cranky Ireland!

 

[ritz]

Overgrooming continues; sore/hot spots worse. Antibiotic not working. Way too soon to tell if novel protein is an/the answer. Back to the vet. Thanks.

 

[lisahe]

Overgrooming continues; sore/hot spots worse. Antibiotic not working. Way too soon to tell if novel protein is an/the answer. Back to the vet. Thanks.

Oh no, sorry to hear this. I hope the vet can help!

 

[sophie1]

Same here!

At least you still have time to see if the novel protein diet will help. Meanwhile....did you try that Jackson Galaxy stress-stopper? I found it to be a LOT more effective than Rescue Remedy or the Vetri science chews. Also I'm sure you've tried this already but Feliway diffusers might help.

I'm sure the vet will have more suggestions. Like, an anti-anxiety med like gabapentin or amitryptiline?

Also your initial post mentioned 4 foster kittens. I know you're an old pro at this but....could there be a problem with resources? Litter boxes, food & water bowls, cat tree, favorite sleeping spots? My cats definitely have issues with that, except that they're very good at letting me know exactly what they want. (Like when Charlie requested a second litter box by pooping on my bed. A front entry and no pellet litters, if you please.)

 

[ritz]

Ritz is getting a Convenia shot today. And prednisone. She has thrown up the freeze dried raw, not sure if it is because she ate too fast or was too long between meals (4 hours). Or some other reason. I prefer raw nit freeze dried, easier for me.

 

[lisahe]

Oh no, I'm very sorry to hear this ritz . Did she throw up the freeze-dried food immediately after eating (regurgitation) or later (vomit)? It can be so hard to figure out why they barf.

 

[sophie1]

Huh, one of my cats is very prone to throwing up after eating, and I think it had to do with the high bone content in the Nature Variety medallions I was feeding him. Once Chai stopped eating for 3 days, and the vet found a pile of bone fragments stuck in his gut. He used enemas to clear him out. I tried hairball paste, egg yolk lecithin, splitting up his meals etc, but then a bit later he had his bladder stone adventure. I switched first to canned food, then boneless raw food supplemented with EZ Complete (no bone), and the vomiting improved by a LOT. Splitting up meals helped too, instead of 2.5 oz twice a day he now gets 1.25 oz 4 times a day. This is only possible using a timed feeder for the midday meal, since...well I have to go to work sometimes!

I've also been experimenting with using a pile of bricks or tiles to raise his food bowl a few inches off the ground, so he can eat with his head straight. That seems to be helping too. Although, this time of year is always worst for vomiting, they're shedding their summer coats and growing their winter ones. It may just be better because we're now getting past the shedding season.

Hope the meds are helpful! So it sounds like you've ruled out food allergies? In that case, you could try EZ Complete with boneless meats - it has chicken liver. They'll send you a sample to try if you call (and Carolina used to post on this forum a lot!).

 

[ritz]

Oh no, I'm very sorry to hear this ritz . Did she throw up the freeze-dried food immediately after eating (regurgitation) or later (vomit)? It can be so hard to figure out why they barf.

Immediately. But she has always been a vomiter if she eats too fast or goes without food too long. I prefer the frozen raw, it is easier for me than having to rehydrate the freeze dried food. Good to keep a bag just in case (like a 20 inch snow storm that she survived before she was rescued.

 

[ritz]

Actually we haven't ruled out food allergies. Which is why she is being feed only rabbit. Today marks the 2nd week she has been on rabbit. Too soon to tell if she is allergic to a different protein (poultry, pork, beef).
Good idea about raising her food bowl. I may try that.
Thanks.