Overgrooming / Stress / Protein Intolerance?

[ritz]

Hello all. I've been feeding Ritz raw for about 13 years; she is now 15. Rotation of pork, poultry (chicken and turkey) and beef.. She periodically overgrooms, about every six months. Medication clears it up. But she has been overgrooming since March, when I started fostering four kittens. The last one got adopted late September, I personally think due to stress (I foster kittens on a regular basis). My vet believes it is a protein intolerance and recommends feeding a novel protein. Should I eliminate, say, poultry from the rotation? Feed her a novel protein; I have access to goat and lamb locally and a good pet store? Or, try Prozac? She needs to lose weight. Poop is fine, urine can smell sometimes; behavior the same. Thanks a lot.

 

[lisahe]

Hello all. I've been feeding Ritz raw for about 13 years; she is now 15. Rotation of pork, poultry (chicken and turkey) and beef.. She periodically overgrooms, about every six months. Medication clears it up. But she has been overgrooming since March, when I started fostering four kittens. The last one got adopted late September, I personally think due to stress (I foster kittens on a regular basis). My vet believes it is a protein intolerance and recommends feeding a novel protein. Should I eliminate, say, poultry from the rotation? Feed her a novel protein; I have access to goat and lamb locally and a good pet store? Or, try Prozac? She needs to lose weight. Poop is fine, urine can smell sometimes; behavior the same. Thanks a lot.

Oh, this is a tricky one. Does Ritz have any other symptoms (vomiting or diarrhea?) beyond the overgrooming? What kind of medication do you give her for the periodic overgrooming? (Of course it's hard to say if the medication is what clears it up, given that stress can pass... we used an antihistamine on an overgroomer and I'm still not convinced it was the antihistamine that cleared it up.)

My usual approach to situations like this is to start with the path of least resistance. If I were in your situation, I'd probably first try to address the stress. Particularly since that seems to be your gut instinct. It sounds like the overgrooming started roughly when the foster kittens came in, is that right? And now the kittens are all gone but the overgrooming remains? Sometimes it's hard to break the cycle of stress and habits.

We've found that stress is a big factor in one cat's vomiting: her stressors include her sister, disruption of routine, hot and humid weather, changes in the weather (watch that barometric pressure!), noise (particularly shrill and metallic sounds), lifelong severe food anxiety, and who knows what all else. She's a rescue cat with a bundle of stress; we had a rough summer but are now more aware of what triggers her. Developing that awareness is half the battle. What eases the stress? Beyond things like taking her away from noise, out of the heat, and so on, Bach's Rescue Remedy drops are very, very helpful. I used to give her Composure chews but I think she was sensitive to an ingredient. (She's a barfer with presumptive IBD so we watch her diet carefully.) We also give her Adored Beast's Feline Gut Soothe, which has probiotics and herbs for a combined effect of healthier gut flora and tamping down inflammation. She's clearly more at ease (even with fewer Rescue Remedy drops) though I'm not sure if that's because her stomach feels so much better and/or because the probiotics have eased her stress. Probiotics can apparently have that effect so you might want to check with your vet about them. I've even seen at least one formulation of probiotics and herbs that's specifically aimed at mood/stress.

If you need to work on Ritz's diet, yes, lamb or goat might be a good one to try. Do you feed homemade raw or commercial? If it's commercial, are there any weird ingredients that might be suspect? Some of those recipes include the darndest things.

Good luck!

 

[ritz]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response. I feed homemade raw; that is, I buy pork, poultry and beef from the grocery store and feed the appropriate amount. Sometimes the meat I buy is ground, FWIW. She is rescue, and has been a chronic barfer if she has gone several hours without eating---and always wants to eat right afterwards. She was diagnosed with a mild case of FHS. The medication given for overgrooming is Prednisone. I wanted the vet to prescribe an anti-anxiety med like Prozac but she wants me to try a novel protein. I know another vet who will prescribe Prozac or a similar medication. I will try a probiotic. She is highly suspicious of anything new medicine wise unless it is flavored, but will give Rescue Remedy a try. Thanks again. Cindy

 

[lisahe]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response. I feed homemade raw; that is, I buy pork, poultry and beef from the grocery store and feed the appropriate amount. Sometimes the meat I buy is ground, FWIW. She is rescue, and has been a chronic barfer if she has gone several hours without eating---and always wants to eat right afterwards. She was diagnosed with a mild case of FHS. The medication given for overgrooming is Prednisone. I wanted the vet to prescribe an anti-anxiety med like Prozac but she wants me to try a novel protein. I know another vet who will prescribe Prozac or a similar medication. I will try a probiotic. She is highly suspicious of anything new medicine wise unless it is flavored, but will give Rescue Remedy a try. Thanks again. Cindy

Oh my, she sounds so much like Edwina with that chronic acid barfing and food drive. The combination of things we've tried -- Feline Gut Soothe, Rescue Remedy (dog/cat version), some Cerenia, a new feeding plan, and reducing stressors whenever possible -- has helped her tremendously, including reducing her nervousness about eating. After listening to some holistic vet presentations, I feel like the Gut Soothe is working for her because of that blend of anti-inflammatory herbs (healing her damaged stomach) and probiotics ("retraining" her gut since there's such a gut-brain connection). It's as if that cycle I mentioned has broken. Among other things, she no longer asks for food constantly, a big improvement.

I don't think I mentioned before that there are even probiotics (and at least one herb/probiotic blend) that focus on mood!

One thing I didn't mention is that we also use autofeeders during the night; that helps keeps the acid barfing at a minimum. I use what I call "medicated free feeding," where I set out a small buffet of food for her, some on a raised platform, some in timed feeders. The portions are smallish but there's almost always something to eat and so now she does her heaviest eating at night. She does still eat too much and regurgitate occasionally but it's far less frequently than before. The best part of this is that she's generally less nervous about her food during the day, too. I know it's harder to do with raw food (we used to feed a lot of it!) but maybe there's something you could do with that for Ritz, too, maybe with something freeze-dried? (I'm figuring you might be getting up in the night to feed her?)

I could go on and on about this but I'll stop here and say this a great chance for you to try new things now that the kittens are out of the house! Rescue Remedy, by the way, is dosed in drops; I only use two at a time for Edwina, at meals, and I'm not sure she even notices them since I drop them on freeze-dried chicken treats.

Fingers crossed for you and Ritz both!

 

[iPappy]

Thanks so much for your thoughtful response. I feed homemade raw; that is, I buy pork, poultry and beef from the grocery store and feed the appropriate amount. Sometimes the meat I buy is ground, FWIW. She is rescue, and has been a chronic barfer if she has gone several hours without eating---and always wants to eat right afterwards. She was diagnosed with a mild case of FHS. The medication given for overgrooming is Prednisone. I wanted the vet to prescribe an anti-anxiety med like Prozac but she wants me to try a novel protein. I know another vet who will prescribe Prozac or a similar medication. I will try a probiotic. She is highly suspicious of anything new medicine wise unless it is flavored, but will give Rescue Remedy a try. Thanks again. Cindy

Hi! I'm with you and lisahe that stress would be my gut reaction too. I'm not sure where you're located, but where I'm at the environmental allergy season is ramping up. Can you remember in years past if her over-grooming got worse at any specific time of year or if it was pretty much a year round thing? Were you near any of the wildfires this summer? (I saw a huge uptick in "itchiness" during the times we were exposed to smoky environments.) Is Ritz an only cat, now that the foster kittens have found their new homes?
If that isn't the case, I would carefully look at the protein sources, and the sources you get them from and see if you can pinpoint a potential problem. Years ago, I had a dog that could handle grass fed beef, but not grain fed beef. I also had a very discerning (for good reason) cat that would absolutely refuse to eat poultry, be it raw or cooked, from the grocery store, but if I got it from a place like hare today, he'd lick the bowl clean.
Be aware that if you do try a novel protein trial diet, the usual treats and things are off limits for awhile if they contain any of the ingredients you're trying to avoid.
I hope she feels better.

 

[lisahe]

That's such a good point about the allergies and the time of year, iPappy , particularly with this summer's addition of major wildfire smoke, which was a huge source stress for our asthmatic cat.

 

[ritz]

Thanks everyone, and hi iPappy. Ritz is not an only cat; Dahalia (also dumped) is 8 years younger and is somewhat of a bully. Though with aging, Dahalia is a little less so. I have ordered Rescue Remedy.
I am in Maryland, east coast. And *I* think she overgrooms around the time I start to foster kittens. Hence, my gut feeling her overgrooming is due to stress and maybe some change of weather. She isn't nervous about eating; in fact, she eats too much (and whose fault is than.... ):
I have made an appointment for Ritz with a holistic vet next Friday; if nothing else, for a second opinion. Will let you know what she advises. Thanks again.

 

[lisahe]

I hope next week's vet appointment goes well, ritz !

And how interesting that Ritz also has a somewhat bullying sister... we have that, too, and it can cause a fair bit of rancor.

 

[iPappy]

Thanks everyone, and hi iPappy. Ritz is not an only cat; Dahalia (also dumped) is 8 years younger and is somewhat of a bully. Though with aging, Dahalia is a little less so. I have ordered Rescue Remedy.
I am in Maryland, east coast. And *I* think she overgrooms around the time I start to foster kittens. Hence, my gut feeling her overgrooming is due to stress and maybe some change of weather. She isn't nervous about eating; in fact, she eats too much (and whose fault is than.... ):
I have made an appointment for Ritz with a holistic vet next Friday; if nothing else, for a second opinion. Will let you know what she advises. Thanks again.

I hope the Rescue Remedy helps, and your vet has some other ideas! I'm sure you'll get this all sorted out, but these things can take time.
I have a few who eat too much, too. If I accidentally leave the treat cabinet cracked, they help themselves and shred the bags for me.

 

[sophie1]

I remember your posts about Ritz! Wow, 15 years old and going strong....good for you!

It makes sense to try a few stress-relieving options before a change in diet, which might be hard for a 15 year old to deal with. I've had some stress problems with my (raw-fed) cats too. Here's what I've found helpful: 1) Feliway diffuser, 2) adding an extra litter box, no small feat in an apartment with no good spot for it, and establishing separate feeding areas, to minimize competition, 3) Jackson Galaxy stress stopper flower essence. I found that this is much more effective than Rescue Remedy and much easier to give, you just squirt it on your hands and rub around your cat's neck and face. and 4) have you tried having private play sessions with Ritz?

Another thought: with the recent "shrinkflation" trend I think grocery store chicken is now more likely to have been adulterated with injected brine plus they probably use more, to increase the weight - i.e. you're paying chicken prices for salt water. Maybe try getting chicken from a butcher who doesn't do that?

If all else fails....you might try introducing rabbit and/or venison, both easy on cat tummies, then once Ritz is used to them try feeding only those for a while and see what happens. You can get supplies online, as it might be hard to find those locally.

 

[lisahe]

Another thought: with the recent "shrinkflation" trend I think grocery store chicken is now more likely to have been adulterated with injected brine plus they probably use more, to increase the weight - i.e. you're paying chicken prices for salt water. Maybe try getting chicken from a butcher who doesn't do that?

This is so true! I started making cat food five or so years ago and this briny stuff wasn't nearly as common as it is now. It's very salty and bad for cats. I find it's more in frozen chicken than fresh but even so, you have to check the labels.

 

[iPappy]

This is so true! I started making cat food five or so years ago and this briny stuff wasn't nearly as common as it is now. It's very salty and bad for cats. I find it's more in frozen chicken than fresh but even so, you have to check the labels.

Interesting because I've noticed a different taste and/or texture in store bought chicken recently, even if it's organic. I guess now I know why...

 

[lisahe]

Interesting because I've noticed a different taste and/or texture in store bought chicken recently, even if it's organic. I guess now I know why...

Yes, there can be that... but I've also noticed that a lot of the chicken I buy is, hm, grainier. The pieces are larger and the texture is grainier. This started during peak pandemic time: the pieces in the package were of wildly varying sizes, the trimming was bad, etc. I now buy the majority of the cats' chicken at Walmart -- their store brand chicken is more consistent than what I'd been buying but sometimes I do find that grainier texture.

In the end, though, the kicker is that the cats seem to prefer the "tenders" pieces! They're a little more expensive but they're also less cutting for me so I buy those when they have them.

Turkey's the biggest problem: hard to find, out of stock a lot everywhere. And expensive. But I buy it and put small amounts (1/4 of total) in food with chicken and/or pork. It has naturally has more sodium anyway so I've never used it on its own.

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a treatise on poultry.

 

[iPappy]

Yes, there can be that... but I've also noticed that a lot of the chicken I buy is, hm, grainier. The pieces are larger and the texture is grainier. This started during peak pandemic time: the pieces in the package were of wildly varying sizes, the trimming was bad, etc. I now buy the majority of the cats' chicken at Walmart -- their store brand chicken is more consistent than what I'd been buying but sometimes I do find that grainier texture.

In the end, though, the kicker is that the cats seem to prefer the "tenders" pieces! They're a little more expensive but they're also less cutting for me so I buy those when they have them.

Turkey's the biggest problem: hard to find, out of stock a lot everywhere. And expensive. But I buy it and put small amounts (1/4 of total) in food with chicken and/or pork. It has naturally has more sodium anyway so I've never used it on its own.

Sorry, I didn't mean to write a treatise on poultry.

Write away! That makes perfect sense to me and yes, I do notice things are grainier as well.
Where are you located? I order turkey thighs, ground in 5 pound chubs, from hare today and my cats love them. They are located in Pennsylvania.
I have bought whole turkeys or turkey breasts and just fed it cooked, but wow....that's some work. And they never share.

 

[lisahe]

Write away! That makes perfect sense to me and yes, I do notice things are grainier as well.
Where are you located? I order turkey thighs, ground in 5 pound chubs, from hare today and my cats love them. They are located in Pennsylvania.
I have bought whole turkeys or turkey breasts and just fed it cooked, but wow....that's some work. And they never share.

Thank you for that tip, iPappy ! I don't quite understand why but these two only like turkey breast, not turkey thigh. , we all ! The Perdue sliced turkey breast works pretty well, though I think thighs have more nutrients, don't they? Oh, cats!

 

[sophie1]

Our cats don't know how good they have it! Just think of all those poor kitties having to settle for a bowl of dry food.

The ground turkey thigh and chicken breast chubs from Hare Today are great. I wish HT also had ground chicken thighs. I got the cubed chicken thighs, and ended up making it for dinner for me! Good stuff. My cats got some of it before it went into the pan, and they wolfed it down like I hadn't fed them in weeks.

I remember buying sliced turkey from the store for my cats once. They wouldn't touch it. It was icky smelling AND salty, so I couldn't blame them. A few times I've gotten whole locally produced chickens on sale (normally those cost something like $30) and those are always a big hit. I've noticed they're much fresher than packaged parts, so I always get whole chickens no matter who I'm buying for.

 

[lisahe]

Our cats don't know how good they have it! Just think of all those poor kitties having to settle for a bowl of dry food.

The ground turkey thigh and chicken breast chubs from Hare Today are great. I wish HT also had ground chicken thighs. I got the cubed chicken thighs, and ended up making it for dinner for me! Good stuff. My cats got some of it before it went into the pan, and they wolfed it down like I hadn't fed them in weeks.

I remember buying sliced turkey from the store for my cats once. They wouldn't touch it. It was icky smelling AND salty, so I couldn't blame them. A few times I've gotten whole locally produced chickens on sale (normally those cost something like $30) and those are always a big hit. I've noticed they're much fresher than packaged parts, so I always get whole chickens no matter who I'm buying for.

They most certainly do not know how good they have it!

I only buy plain, raw sliced turkey, no salt, no icky smell. I used to buy fresh turkey thighs at Whole Foods but (as mentioned before) the cats just plain hated them.

And how funny that you've used Hare Today meat for yourself! I've seen that some people use Adored Beast supplements for themselves, too. Maybe the cats really do have it better!?

 

[ritz]

HI, just to update you. I saw the holistic vet, excellent. Prednisone does clear up the hot spots, sores; the fact that it does indicates her overgrooming is NOT due to stress. She mixed a tincture of calming herbs, and I am giving it to her, which she tolerates. The vet recommended a novel protein diet, so Ritz is now on Primal raw patties. Loves it. Also will probably order Primal freeze dried raw, Question: can I mix brands of raw rabbit and freeze dried --like Quest and Stella & Chewy. The vet was unaware of Hare Today; I will send her a link.
Dahalia doesn't have a food allergy, so I plan to keep feeding her raw-- AFTER I read and digest Dr. Pierson's treatise on feeding a homemade diet. Been doing things half way, which is no way to feed cats. Taurine...... Thanks everyone.

 

[lisahe]

HI, just to update you. I saw the holistic vet, excellent. Prednisone does clear up the hot spots, sores; the fact that it does indicates her overgrooming is NOT due to stress. She mixed a tincture of calming herbs, and I am giving it to her, which she tolerates. The vet recommended a novel protein diet, so Ritz is now on Primal raw patties. Loves it. Also will probably order Primal freeze dried raw, Question: can I mix brands of raw rabbit and freeze dried --like Quest and Stella & Chewy. The vet was unaware of Hare Today; I will send her a link.
Dahalia doesn't have a food allergy, so I plan to keep feeding her raw-- AFTER I read and digest Dr. Pierson's treatise on feeding a homemade diet. Been doing things half way, which is no way to feed cats. Taurine...... Thanks everyone.

So glad to hear all this! I'm especially curious about the calming herbs, wondering what's in the tincture. How wonderful that you could see a holistic vet that makes tinctures!

What is Ritz's novel protein? It sounds like maybe it's rabbit? (Our cats used to eat lots of Primal; they liked it a lot! Unfortunately, it had too much bone for one of our cats, who has constipation troubles.) I don't see why you couldn't mix brands as long as you're still using the same (novel) protein and aren't adding an ingredient that causes some sort of sensitivity or allergic reaction. Stella & Chewy's pretty basic -- just meat and necessary supplements -- so you'd probably be okay. I'd still be very careful, starting small.

Fingers crossed that this will go well!

 

[sophie1]

Interesting, hope the calming herbs are helpful.

I was going to say, beware of the high bone content in commercial raw foods. It's gotten worse lately, because bone is cheap so it's used as a filler. I suggest writing to Primal and asking them directly about their bone content. Or, you can safely assume the bone content is high if your cats have white poop or they get constipated. Nature Variety and Stella/Chewys have both admitted to bone content in the 15-20% range, which I consider outrageous and IMHO not safe for long-term feeding. Great if Primal hasn't done that; I like that brand in general except for some reason my cats have always hated the stuff and won't eat it.

Beware freeze dried raw though....my cats also have refused to eat that after it's rehydrated. It's the texture they don't like. Try a small bag first, you can always use it for treats if your cats react like mine did.

Hare Today is a great alternative option, if you don't mind a bit less convenience. I guess I'm just really mistrustful of commercial raw after the high bone percentage in Nature Variety resulted in renal damage to both of my cats. I mean, they're a well respected brand and I never imagined that their food could be a health hazard. Happily, after switching to purely homemade raw, my cats have been slowly and gradually improving - no more blood, crystals, or sky-high urine pH thank goodness, and their BUN & creatinine have been stable.