Not quite raw. . .

[Willowy]

Frustrating cat! Fluffy suddenly decided she doesn't like Evo anymore. . .and that was the only canned food she'd eat at all . For the past week or so she's been refusing all canned food, begging and meowing constantly for food, but refusing to eat when I gave it to her. I tried all the tricks--kibble dust, a glob of baby food on top, etc. I knew her appetite wasn't lacking because she stole everything I was eating :tongue2:. Corn chips, bread, soup, even salad--if I looked away for a second she was all over it. I don't eat much meat at home but I know she likes cooked meat. Her last owners fed her dry Cat Chow, so I gave her some of that, along with turkey baby food, and she ate enough that I was satisfied she wouldn't starve or get hepatic lipidosis, but she was still not eating enough calories to maintain her weight, still begging, and she's not supposed to have dry food because she has FLUTD.

So I found this website: http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/feeding_a_normal_dog_or_cat.html#cats and made the chicken and beef cat foods. I didn't have clams so I added sardines and taurine powder, but I know that clams have all kinds of great nutrients so I'll definitely get some if I make it again. And I ground up eggshells instead of using bone meal, I used about 1 teaspoon per pound of meat. She ate a big bowl of the chicken and a small amount of the beef (just to see if she liked it), and now, thankfully, she isn't begging anymore and looks quite satisfied! I was getting desperate. Any thoughts on the long-term suitability of the recipes? (obviously I won't make the vegetarian ones or the ones with rice). Any other suggestions for a cooked-meat diet? She won't eat raw, and she's obviously willing to starve herself :/.

 

[mschauer]

That page is from the web site of Dr. Donald Strombeck and is the site I usually recommend when people are interested in making cooked cat food. Dr. Strombeck is a long time proponent of feeding homecooked meals to cats and dogs. He has used those recipes for many years. On the basis of that and the ingredients I don't see any reason why they wouldn't be suitable for long term feeding.

There is much anecdotal evidence that a cooked home prepared diet for cats is every bit as beneficial as a raw one.

And, I don't think there is any reason to not use the recipes with rice. I'm not wild about the ones that use tofu as the protein source though.

I'm glad you found something other than dry food that your picky girl will eat!

Edit - You could add a bit cooked liver to up the nutrient value. I think it's always better to get as many nutrients as possible from a food source rather than a supplement.

 

[peaches08]

Are you adding taurine?

 

[mschauer]

Are you adding taurine?

From the first post:

So I found this website: http://www.dogcathomeprepareddiet.com/feeding_a_normal_dog_or_cat.html#cats and made the chicken and beef cat foods. I didn't have clams so I added sardines and taurine powder, ...

 

[vball91]

mschauer, do you know about the 2002 study that showed that rice bran depletes taurine levels in cats? Sorry, I'm on my phone so I can't post the link, but it comes up easily in a Google search.

 

[ldg]

With the substitutions/additions you made, I don't see why it wouldn't be fine for long term feeding, as mschauer points out. I would give it a test run to see if she'll eat it with liver. I'd make it 5 - 10% of the total (depending on whether or not she'll eat it).

I think if you're able to rotate proteins, even better! And sometimes using clams, sometimes using sardines - the variety is good!

I'd personally still use a probiotic, but I'm a big proponent of that addition to any diet, as I think you already know. :lol3:

 

[mschauer]

mschauer, do you know about the 2002 study that showed that rice bran depletes taurine levels in cats? Sorry, I'm on my phone so I can't post the link, but it comes up easily in a Google search.

White rice contains no bran.

 

[vball91]

White rice contains no bran.

Whoops, I should have realized that!

Even without the taurine issue though, is there any benefit to adding rice? I really respect your knowledge on cat nutrition, so I am very curious about your thoughts on rice for cats.

 

[mschauer]

Sure there is benefit. Rice contains nutrients that cats can utilize. You're probably thinking of the raw feeding purist stance that cats should never be fed any non-animal based foods because they aren't part of a cats "natural diet". Cats are able to derive all needed nutrients from animal sources and there are some nutrients that they can only derive from animal sources. That is what makes them "obligate carnivores". But that doesn't mean they *must* eat only animal based foods or that they can't derive benefit from non-animal based foods.  It does mean they are physiologically adapted to a mostly animal based diet.

Cooked white rice is easily digested by cats. In fact, in cat rescue a diet of cooked chicken and white rice is commonly used to help cats with digestion issues. 

Edit : Corrected my sloppy definition of obligate carnivore.

 

[vball91]

Thanks for the explanation. I'm off to research which nutrients come from rice that cats can utilize. Right now, my cat won't eat raw chicken, only cooked, so this thread is very timely.

Thanks Willowy! Sorry for hijacking.

 

[mschauer]

I hope my wording didn't give the impression that cats can only utilize some of the nutrients in white rice. Since it is easily digested by them they are able to absorb and use all nutrients contained in it to the same extent they are able to use those nutrients from another source.

I also hope I haven't given the impression that white rice should be a major component of a cats diet. It shouldn't be. 

 

[vball91]

No, your wording was fine. I was just curious as to the nutrients in white rice period. I was under the impression it didn't have many, which is why my husband and I have switched to brown rice. I am just woefully ignorant on the nutritional value of rice period.

 

 

[mschauer]

White rice isn't exactly high in nutrition, it certainly isn't devoid of nutrients though, but that doesn't mean it can't be beneficial. I really just meant that the recipes that call for rice needn't be disregarded just because they include rice.

 

[ldg]

No, your wording was fine. I was just curious as to the nutrients in white rice period. I was under the impression it didn't have many, which is why my husband and I have switched to brown rice. I am just woefully ignorant on the nutritional value of rice period. :doh3:  

Whole foods/less processed foods are generally more nutritionally beneficial. But they're not necessarily easily digestible. And Dr. Strombeck probably recommends the white rice because of digestibility and perhaps the bran issue as re: taurine. But many people in Asia live on a diet of primarily white rice.

Sorry for the side-track, just wanted to address the rice question.

 

[Willowy]

OK, so I've been feeding her this for 3 weeks now. . .she sure is happy. And her fur looks nicer, so even if it is a pain to cook for her, oh well, the things we do for kitties! But if I'm going to do this long-term, I want to make sure I'm doing it right, especially since I haven't been following the recipes exactly. I didn't use bonemeal for the batches I've made so far---I just crushed up calcium tablets (whatever I had for myself) and put the same amount of that in (the recipe calls for 1 teaspoon of bonemeal per half-pound of meat). I suppose this probably isn't quite right. I don't totally understand the calcium/phosphorus balance thing. So what should I be aiming for in the amount of calcium per pound of meat?

Also, I made the last batch with clams, sardines, liver, and kidney, AND added maybe half the amount of multi-vitamin it called for. If I put liver and kidney in, should I even bother with multi-vitamins?

 

[mschauer]

I'm glad she is liking her homemade kitty food! I'll bet she is feeling a lot better!

You need to be careful about using calcium sources other than what is called for in a recipe. Sources made from bone have a significant amount of phosphorus in addition to the calcium and so you need to use more of them than what you would use of a source that has a higher calcium to phosphorus ratio. For example, the 1 teaspoon of bone meal per 1/2 lb beef would give you a calcium phosphorus ratio of a about 1.6. If you used eggshell (or calcium carbonate) instead, you would need only 1/3 teaspoon to get the same calcium phosphorus ratio (Ca).

The Ca is important because phosphorus binds with calcium and makes the calcium unavailable for absorption. So you need to make sure your recipes have more calcium than phosphorus. Exactly what Ca you should shot for is kinda iffy. Something between 1.1 and 2.0 is probably nutritionally adequate but the higher ratio might increase the chance of constipation.

 

[Willowy]

I suppose I should buy some bonemeal :/. I have this for myself: http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/Pr...-Magnesium/Bone-Strength-240-Veg-Capsules.htm, but of course it has some stuff added and the phosphorus is fairly high. How do you find out how much phosphorus is in the meat?

What about the liver/kidney/multivitamin? I know that most vitamins are water-soluble, and cats have a high tolerance for vitamins A and D, so you'd really have to work at overdosing. But I'm sure it's better to have the right amounts.

 

[mschauer]

I suppose I should buy some bonemeal :/. I have this for myself: http://www.nowfoods.com/Products/Pr...-Magnesium/Bone-Strength-240-Veg-Capsules.htm, but of course it has some stuff added and the phosphorus is fairly high. How do you find out how much phosphorus is in the meat?

What about the liver/kidney/multivitamin?

The USDA database is a raw feeders best friend (and is where I got the phosphorus information from):

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/search/list

A multivitamin would certainly contain nutrients that the liver and kidney don't have so I'd say still use it.

 

[Willowy]

Yeah, the multivitamin (Nu-Cat) says 4 tablets a day, and I assume that's for cats fed commercial food! Now that seems a little excessive to me, after looking at how much a cat needs. So I figure that if it's safe for a cat fed commercial food, which is already supplemented, I guess it won't be an overdose for a cat fed homemade food.

I did make a batch using just Call of the Wild and meat, but I'll have to look into that to see if it's a viable long-term alternative. It requires a lot of it. . .

 

[ldg]

Bumping this up to ask - would you be able to post the Dr. Strombeck recipe, and then the ingredient list (and amounts) of what you used in your recipe? (How you altered it, and in what amounts?)

THANK YOU.