No grinder, no taurine; is frankenprey the way to go?

[stealthkitty]

We'd really prefer to feed our kittens a raw diet, but currently we have some limitations; namely, we lack a grinder and probably won't be able to get a decent one for months, and I haven't been able to find a taurine supplement in my area (yet). Will frankenprey allow us to provide a balanced diet within these limitations? If so, I'll be happy to do the research to learn how to prepare it.

I've read the page on making cat food from catinfo.org more than once and did so again this week, this time noting down the most salient information. I feel that I have a good grasp of the principles and am ready to dive in, but her recipe relies heavily on a grinder and a taurine supplement (the other supplements are not a problem; we can easily find them). We're planning on serving them chicken and turkey; we can also get beef and pork for variety; and if necessary we could buy rabbit and guinea pig, and perhaps lamb. Buying organs isn't a problem either. Any advice from the frankenprey feeders here?

 

[Willowy]

Yep, it's definitely do-able, and your kitties are young enough that you shouldn't have any transition issues! Plus they were raised outside, so even easier. Have you seen this thread? All the best links in one place: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread

 

[stealthkitty]

So glad to know that! Going to start researching right away.

One good thing is these kittens were being fed a variety of foods and no kibble; so I have high hopes that we won't have issues with picky eaters.

Yep, I had seen that link before but honestly it only occurred to me last night that I'd need to find a recipe minus a grinder and hence would need resources other than catinfo.org.

Will start focusing on other websites now. Frankenprey always sounded a little intimidating, so I never gave it much thought; but I love the idea of not having to spend money on a grinder, and I believe it will be better for their teeth, too.

 

[Willowy]

To save you going through every link, this is the main frankenprey site: http://rawfedcats.org/

 

[korina]

You didn't mention how old the cats are.

I made my opinion known in another kitten thread yesterday "Can someone please confim if I'm understanding this right"

I think ground is the only way to ensure your cats get the right calories.

If you are going to go franken, then I would highly suggest you get a kitchen scale and make sure the kittens are injesting at least 8oz of product (assuming everything is portioned correctly according to models).

As to Taurine depending where in South America you are (its a big continent mind you) you should have no problem aquiring it.

Just look for any store or website that sells vitamins and ask for taurine powder (pure no flavor).

Also know that taurine is main ingredient in red bull.

As to a grinder, what is your limitation, money, or logistics?

If money is an issue, I would save up, in USA minimum grinder needed is 150$ (Tasin) and it is the most common model used.

There is also the bigger units from Weston, great if you do alot, and only the best and biggest will do.

Your cats are going to live a long long time.  The investment in the grinder is pennies compared to food and medical care over the years.

If its the case of aquiring, check with http://www.onestopjerkyshop.com/  for internatonal orders  (this is website all of us order from).

Personally my only problem with the grinder is cleaning, I am terribly lazy.  I don't own one yet, but I am hoping it is easy to clean.

Also, I give my kittens a drumstick (lower chicken leg) almost every day.  Together they can clear the meat off that plus 1 lb of ground.

Not sure if they will eat both ground and parts in adult hood.

Kittens love chicken necks too.   Its wonderful to have them adapted to eating parts, its great for teeth, and allows ability to transition to frankprey later.

Good luck, and I recommend to read as much as possible, use the search feature here, or use google to search the site for keywords.

 

[stealthkitty]

The kittens are about 8 weeks old.

I've been reading about raw diets for cats for a couple of years now, and would prefer to feed them ground raw. Believe me, I've spent a lot of time considering how we could get a grinder. But it would involve a trip to a different country (probably the US=$$$) since there is no way that I would order a heavy, $150 piece of equipment and then pay to have it sent internationally. It is not uncommon for things to go missing between here and there. Lacking a grinder, my choices are frankenprey, kibble, or expensive canned food (which, we all know, is not ideal but is better than kibble). I'm trying to make the best choice within my circumstances.

We do have a kitchen scale that we use regularly; that's not an issue. (How else would one measure out the right amount of meat, bones and organs?)

Yes, South America is a big continent. We live in a very small corner of it. I believe that many of the nations here are all in the same boat--small, developing countries that lack many of the luxuries of other places. We are even sometimes without water and electricity. There might be taurine somewhere for sale in my area, but it will take a lot of footwork to find it (if it's even possible; some of the places where I've already looked had no idea what it is, and yes those are places that sell vitamins and supplements). Ordering online from a local place is out of the question because the few businesses that have webpages don't take online orders, and even if they did there is no guarantee that the shipment will be delivered. Don't know why you mention Red Bull; I'm not sure we can get that here, and even if we could I wouldn't give it to kittens.

No worries, I like to do things thoroughly and will be sure to do all of my homework before starting with frankenprey.

ETA: I read your post in the thread you mentioned, and I see your point. I'll take it into consideration and will see what I can do to ensure their caloric intake is sufficient.

 

[vball91]

I absolutely think you can do a fine job of feeding them raw without a grinder or taurine. A lot of prey model raw (frankenprey) feeders don't supplement. I think those who do, do it just in case since it seems almost impossible to overdo taurine. I would just make sure they have more of the higher taurine meats. If you are worried about bone while they are little, you could supplement just calcium if you could source that easily or make your own eggshell calcium. I would also try to rotate in at least 5 different proteins, whatever is available/on sale. I was a little intimidated at first, but with a scale it really isn't that difficult to figure out the proper proportions and portions. My struggle is getting my 7 year old cat to eat it, but I don't think you're going to have that problem with your kittens.

 

[ldg]

I absolutely think you can do a fine job of feeding them raw without a grinder or taurine. A lot of prey model raw (frankenprey) feeders don't supplement. I think those who do, do it just in case since it seems almost impossible to overdo taurine. I would just make sure they have more of the higher taurine meats. If you are worried about bone while they are little, you could supplement just calcium if you could source that easily or make your own eggshell calcium. I would also try to rotate in at least 5 different proteins, whatever is available/on sale. I was a little intimidated at first, but with a scale it really isn't that difficult to figure out the proper proportions and portions. My struggle is getting my 7 year old cat to eat it, but I don't think you're going to have that problem with your kittens.

Another helpful site is http://www.catcentric.org

 

[ldg]

I absolutely think you can do a fine job of feeding them raw without a grinder or taurine. A lot of prey model raw (frankenprey) feeders don't supplement. I think those who do, do it just in case since it seems almost impossible to overdo taurine. I would just make sure they have more of the higher taurine meats. If you are worried about bone while they are little, you could supplement just calcium if you could source that easily or make your own eggshell calcium. I would also try to rotate in at least 5 different proteins, whatever is available/on sale. I was a little intimidated at first, but with a scale it really isn't that difficult to figure out the proper proportions and portions. My struggle is getting my 7 year old cat to eat it, but I don't think you're going to have that problem with your kittens.

Another helpful site is http://www.catcentric.org

 

[korina]

StealthKitty: Still not sure where you live , I like to know because I like to see how far good kitty culture spreads.  If you cannot say, I understand why.

So it seems it is rather rural there, as a member of the "greek diaspora" in USA, I well know the pitfalls of shopping in old school areas.

I was at a greek island (samos) and forgot a memory card in athens.  How suprised I was when a member of the village called to let me know that the postman left my pacakage with them.

Also shocked that there is no such thing as a 24 hour pharmacy or grocery store.

And yes I know the pitfalls of taxes (you know anyone flying in from America, have them toss out box and carry over).

As to the shipping, the Tasin grinder is a low 11lbs(4-5kilo),  much lighter then the models I want (30-60lbs). 

Check with onestopjerkyshop,  can't hurt to ask, and you can ask about insurance.

If I remember from when I shipped from Fedex for my last job, EVERYTHNG is insured, and is included in the price.

Taurine, check to see if amazon ships where you live, if so get estimates to send you NOW brand Taurine powder, and the STX MEGAFORCE grinder(affordable grinder amazon carries).
(Redbull is not for kitties

its for mixing with vodka and staying up all night, just mentioned it as it is such a popular drink that it should drive demand for the powdered taurine)

Another idea I got, is if you must, use canned as the base, and mix in chopped meat and organs. 

Or do the method of using egg shells and get butcher to fresh grind you meat, make sure you tell him you want all the fat and skin (chicken) you can get in the grind (that means if it is chicken do not accept skinless, try and use legs over breast). 

VBALL91:  Do you think the franken model is appropriate for 8 week old kittens, how about 12?

Also, what about Lysine?  (Lysine is used to prevent herpes virus from flaring up, and bring it down)

After one kitten came down with conjuctivitis, and the other upper respitory (displayed through rapid sneezing and breathing with his mouth) I knew I had to address this.

Although our vet clinic doesnt sell lysine, the vets said it was a good idea, and my breeder insisted (especially since the pink eye boy eventually passed away(likely FIP) and his replacement was the sneezing boy).

I will probably supplement lysine until they are 3 years old.

Maybe I am also paranoid from the FIP boy, he had stopped growing and it terrified me, he was only 16 weeks when he got sick, and passed at 21.

I always look at thing from the big picture, ideally my buddies will be with me the next 20 years, what can I do to make that happen, what can I do to reduce chances of UTI, gingivits, etc etc

 

[auntie crazy]

From just about every angle you can view it, feeding your cats using a prey model raw (or "frankenprey") diet is easier and more beneficial than feeding a ground diet. There are fewer tools required and fewer - or even no - supplements to buy, and cats get the oral health and psychological benefits of ripping, slicing and scissoring through their meals.

Typically, the most difficult part is calculating how much of what (meat/bones/organs) to feed, and here is a calculator to help you:

Prey Model Feeding Calculator, Excel 2010 and Excel 97-2003

The Raw Feeding page of CatCentric.org also contains several articles on how to get cats started on a PMR diet. With kittens, however, you're far less likely to run into any difficulties at all.

Also, for what it's worth, I wouldn't feed chicken leg bones to cats, as they're just a little too dense for most and if a cat's hungry enough, it will risk a cracked tooth to eat the bone. I also shy away from chicken necks unless they're pretty small, as many of the cats with whom I've worked aren't very keen on them. Chicken wings and ribs make awesome bone-in meals, as do small rabbit bones, quail, guinea pigs, etc. Think mouse and bird-sized. 

Good luck! I absolutely LOVE it when I see kittens switched over to raw diets!

AC

 

[vball91]

VBALL91:  Do you think the franken model is appropriate for 8 week old kittens, how about 12?

Also, what about Lysine?  (Lysine is used to prevent herpes virus from flaring up, and bring it down)

After one kitten came down with conjuctivitis, and the other upper respitory (displayed through rapid sneezing and breathing with his mouth) I knew I had to address this.

Although our vet clinic doesnt sell lysine, the vets said it was a good idea, and my breeder insisted (especially since the pink eye boy eventually passed away(likely FIP) and his replacement was the sneezing boy).

I will probably supplement lysine until they are 3 years old.

Maybe I am also paranoid from the FIP boy, he had stopped growing and it terrified me, he was only 16 weeks when he got sick, and passed at 21.

I always look at thing from the big picture, ideally my buddies will be with me the next 20 years, what can I do to make that happen, what can I do to reduce chances of UTI, gingivits, etc etc

I'm responding to the OP given the limitations she has listed. I certainly do believe that frankenprey model can be used for kittens. If size of food is a concern, the meat can be chopped finer. If bones are a concern, I've listed alternatives. I'm not sure why you thinking grinding is necessary for kittens, but you stated your opinion and I stated mine.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning l-lysine supplementation in a frankenprey discussion.

 

[korina]

AC: Thanks for the tip on the drumstick, generally they eat all the meat, then the cartlidge, as its extra they don't always finish, but when they do its a funny looking clean bone.  One time I came downstairs (feeding is in main floor bathroom's shower), the bone was in the middle of the floor snapped in two (she usually brings the leg upstairs when it is light enough to carry).  Its possible I stepped on it and didn't realize.  But yea, thanks for the tip.  I will have to figure out how to get chicken ribs, Im guessing I will have to buy whole chicken for that.

As to wings, they didnt take, but I didn't try many. (I tried turkey wings and found them pointless)

Necks, honestly they make me nervous, first and only time I have seen her consume bone.  I was worried she didn't know better and might have problem swallowing whole vertabrae so I refrained.

Also HT has pork ribs, that they LOVE, mostly all meat.

Vball:

I guess our opinions split on that which is fine. 

I feel like I speak with some authority as I have raised my kittens this way without alot of guidance from members here.

However I am still learning, like I said I have nothing against FP and hope to migrate to that within the next two years.

I have an older cat who has been tortured with gingivitis most of her life.  I don't mind paying for cleanings every two years, but want as many tools for dental health.

However, another logical reason for grinding is that its a pair of kittens, you would have to hope that one of them does not hog the meat leaving all bone behind.

Or feed in seperate rooms.  (not happening at my home, I am already pulling my hair out with them   )

To each their own, but being these kittens are only 8 weeks (4 weeks too early), caution should be heeded no matter what the diet is.

As to Lysine, that is strictly a kitten issue as they are very suceptible to their herpes virus mutating into a URI or conjuctivitis, or adults who have recurring bouts with the virus.

For Micha (RIP), even if he didn't have FIP, he could have died from his conjuctivits, is Lysine a cure, not officially, but it is one of the only tools at fighting herpes outside of vet drugs(that are only given when sick).

As to raw feeding, Lysine can come in a gel (pointless), a carb treat (more pointless), and a powder.  I use Veralysis which is 1/16 tsp per cat per meal, it has a meat flavor in it too, I suppose you could try to evenly sprinkle this on the meat pieces.


OP:

Best of luck, do what you can, the FP models out there are great, just make sure to follow them, and stay on the forum

AND take photos and videos, nothing cuter than kittens eating raw, I LOVE the wide eyed "your crazy" reactions when i show people on my phone.

For a smile watch Stella eat a turkey neck (4-5months old), then a leg, and Martin eating a pork rib.

Turkey neck (listen for the growling!)
Drumstick
pork-

 

[auntie crazy]

AC: Thanks for the tip on the drumstick, generally they eat all the meat, then the cartlidge, as its extra they don't always finish, but when they do its a funny looking clean bone.  One time I came downstairs (feeding is in main floor bathroom's shower), the bone was in the middle of the floor snapped in two (she usually brings the leg upstairs when it is light enough to carry).  Its possible I stepped on it and didn't realize.  But yea, thanks for the tip.  I will have to figure out how to get chicken ribs, Im guessing I will have to buy whole chicken for that.

As to wings, they didnt take, but I didn't try many. (I tried turkey wings and found them pointless)

Necks, honestly they make me nervous, first and only time I have seen her consume bone.  I was worried she didn't know better and might have problem swallowing whole vertabrae so I refrained.

Also HT has pork ribs, that they LOVE, mostly all meat.

....

Hopefully, you aren't feeding them pork ribs on the bone? And, yes, turkey wings are also generally too big for cats.

Chicken ribs can usually be purchased as "breast meat with ribs". I cut about two thirds of the breast meat off, and then cut the ribs and remaining meat off the backbone. The ribs and accompanying meat make up a bone-in meal, and the rest of the breast meat is served separately. (The backbone and other too-thick pieces are thrown away.)

Vball: ...
However, another logical reason for grinding is that its a pair of kittens, you would have to hope that one of them does not hog the meat leaving all bone behind.

Or feed in seperate rooms.  (not happening at my home, I am already pulling my hair out with them   )

...

Many cats learn to eat off their own plates and, when served discrete meals, learn to eat fairly quickly, too. If watching over them for a couple of minutes is tiresome, simply crate train the wee beasties. 

  Four of my six eat in crates; three because they take off with their food (completely unacceptable) and the fourth because it calms her and allows her to relax enough to eat everything.

AC

 

[korina]

Quote:

Hopefully, you aren't feeding them pork ribs on the bone? And, yes, turkey wings are also generally too big for cats.

 

[stealthkitty]

StealthKitty: Still not sure where you live , I like to know because I like to see how far good kitty culture spreads. 

And yes I know the pitfalls of taxes (you know anyone flying in from America, have them toss out box and carry over).

Another idea I got, is if you must, use canned as the base, and mix in chopped meat and organs. 

Or do the method of using egg shells and get butcher to fresh grind you meat, make sure you tell him you want all the fat and skin (chicken) you can get in the grind (that means if it is chicken do not accept skinless, try and use legs over breast). 

I am a US citizen living in Ecuador. (Believe me, the good kitty culture doesn't reach here.

To most people, cats are just for keeping vermin away and can take care of themselves. Some of our friends can't seem to fathom why in the world we would want cats as pets. I hope that once they get to know ours, they'll see why.)

The problem with shipping isn't that we live in a rural area (we don't), neither is it taxes (though those do apply if the item is above a certain value) nor cost (it's expensive to have even a small package sent here); it's the risk that the item won't be delivered. Even with insurance, we just don't want to take the chance that a grinder would arrive. But Amazon does ship here, and on occasion we've had very small items mailed to us from other companies. We could have a taurine supplement mailed to us but since it's the kind of thing that would have to be replaced regularly, I prefer to find alternatives (especially since it's easy to get organs that will supply them all they need, naturally).

Your suggestion to have a butcher grind the meat is a very good one. We'll be making a trip to the meat market to see about it.

Feeding separately shouldn't be a problem, if we have to do it. It hadn't occurred to me that one might hog all of something and the other wouldn't get any. If we see that happening, we'll make other arrangements for feeding.

Do you mind if I ask about FIP? I've seen it mentioned here and there, but I don't know much about it. What are the symptoms?

 

[korina]

Ecuador, excellent.

I just read an article on how fantastic it is for US citizens to retire too. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/04/best-places-to-retire-overseas-2013_n_2397224.html

Double check on Amazon, don't know international, I don't know their policy.  If an item is "lost" in America, the onus falls on the vendor to file the claim, but the vendor backs it up.

Also, you could contact onestopjerkyshop and ask if he can inquire on guaranteed delivery via FedEx or UPS. Cant hurt to ask.

I feel bad, If I had the money I would fly down there give you the gear and go see the Galapagos islands

As to the butcher, ask him if he will grind the bone, if he has a #22 or #32 grinder, it should do chicken no problem, that would be easier and cheaper then boneless and eggshell.

As to separated feeding, that doesn't work for me especially with the kittens.  It seems adults know they are hungry and dive in.

But as well know cats eat small meals, might avoid something too cold.    Just make sure they ingest their liver and calcium source individually.

As to FIP, its a terrible incurable, ad untestable disease (sure there are limited cases that are not the case, but I could count those on one hand).

It seems to hit kittens 0-3 years old, and maybe senior cats.

It is caused by a common (80%) virus carried by cats called Corona.

For reasons unknown, the virus mutates into a deadly virus that essentially shuts down their organs.  I tried to explain it to folks like HIV>AIDS, "imagine most humans carried HIV, but only a handful mutated into aids, for reasons unknown"

I got my kitten at 12 weeks, by the 16th week I noticed he became very docile and wasn't getting bigger.

He was a Mink Bengal, as I had a snow Bengal already (both white) who was extremely docile, my family and I chalked it upto a personality.

I spent 600$ having his lungs xrayed and tests, he had fluid in his lungs, fluid is only brought on by trauma to the chest, heart disease, or FIP.

The vet did a sonogram for free, desperate to try to "tap" the fluid out.

She told me that the signs are there, but not giving up yet.

I had taken in him in originally as his one eye was pink (conjunctivitis) and the fact he seemed small, I was worried about his neutering 3 days later.

Obviously the doctor refused to neuter him until he got better.

Two weeks later, I called doctor and told her his eye wasn't any clearer, and he was just as docile (this was also after heavy regiment of steroids, antibiotics and 2 other drugs).

She tried to gently tell me that he was not going to make it, I said "lets do one more xray", she responded "I'm so sorry."  I stopped the medicine that day and fed him pure duck fat(he was losing eight too, you could feel his ribs).

Luckily my breeder had one cat left (2 litters, 2 moms, 1 week apart), aside from being a little devil, and grab n biting while petting him (prob due to time in kennel, I got him 2 months after the pair).

I talked to my parents, they didn't want to see me lose the chance for his replacement, especially since I wanted a pair raised together), so they took him in.

Three weeks later, we had really given up and were ready to euthanize him.  He passed on Xmas eve.

The theory for Micha, was that either the move to my house caused stress that triggered the mutation, or the herpes (pink eye) hit his body hard and that stress triggered the mutation.

It affects 5-10% of kittens, some people say more for pure breeds, some say more for domestics.

Either way its a killer.  And with decades of research, scientists cannot find the trigger, the cure, or a vaccine, or even a reliable test.