Need reassurance on their diet please!

[mrsgreenjeens]

Okay, I know I've been thru this before, but after that posting yesterday where that poor kitten has Nutritional Secondary Hyperparathyroidism from not eating a completely balanced raw diet, I need reassurance AGAIN that I am not causing any of my furbabies harm with what I am feeding them.  My problem is (I think) mainly with Tinky, since he eating pretty much ONE protein only.

Here is what everyone is eating:

Tinky:

10 lbs finely ground turkey necks and thigh meat (equals 20% bones)

1 lb turkey liver

1 lb turkey hearts

1 lb turkey gizzards

Alnutrin for 13 lbs of protein

I mix the above, then freeze it in small containers.  When ready to serve, then I mix in probiotics, digestive enzymes, and 1 capsule of Krill Oil.

Darko eats boneless Frankenprey.  He eats it with either Alnutrin with Eggshell Powder OR Call of the Wild, both mixed with probiotics, digestive enzymes and 1/2 squirt of Salmon Oil.  Do I need to be giving him some extra Vitamin D because of the Salmon Oil?  These are the proteins he eats:

pork loin chops

chuck steak or roast

turkey thighs

chicken hearts

chicken breasts (very rarely as he doesn't really like them)

chicken thighs ( very rarely as he doesn't really like them)

I give him Gimborn's freeze dried raw chicken and/or beef liver as treats on those days he has the Alnutrin with Eggshell Powder..  I also usually mix his meats rather than giving him a single protein per meal.  For example, he'll have hearts and  pork together, or chuck steak and turkey thighs together...that sort of thing.  He likes it that way

.  How do I know?  I need to use toppers otherwise

Right now Callie is on all canned food  AGAIN!  She is so fickle.  Whatever.  She is eating Wellness Chicken, Pinnacle Chicken and Fish, BG 95% Beef, and Merrick Cowboy something all mixed with eggwhites, probiotics and digestive enzymes and she is eating better than I've seen her eat in quite awhile!  So be it.  Except her treats.  She LOVES Feline Naturals, with the Green Lipped Mussel in them!  And what is so weird is that she has not gained even a 10th of an ounce, even though she is eating much more than she was, and I am giving her treats on and off throughout the day (for those who do not recall, she may or may not have kidney issues at this point...we are in the wait and see period until July when further tests will be run)

So, can anyone give me any reassurance that I am not harming my furkids by what I am feeding them (Tinky and Darko)?  I was never concerned with the Cahos ratio until Otto posted her thread recently, and I have no idea really how to figure it honestly

.  I was more concerned that it was nutritionally complete.  Now I'm kind of worried again

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

 

[mschauer]

If you are using the Alnutrin and Call of the Wild as per the manufacturers directions there is no need for you to worry. They have already made sure that their product when used as directed will make a nutritionally balanced food.

There is also no need to be overly concerned about Tinky only eating one protein. From a nutrient balance viewpoint there is no known requirement to feed more  than one protein. We just feel more comfortable with feeding as many proteins as possible just in case the differing nutrient profiles *might* be of value.  

Why do you think you might need to add vit D because of feeding salmon oil? Maybe this is a discussion I've missed?

In the thread you are referring to the kitten was fed only meat, egg yolks and goats milk. What you are feeding in no way compares to that. You are feeding a balanced diet. 

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

If you are using the Alnutrin and Call of the Wild as per the manufacturers directions there is no need for you to worry. They have already made sure that their product when used as directed will make a nutritionally balanced food.

There is also no need to be overly concerned about Tinky only eating one protein. From a nutrient balance viewpoint there is no known requirement to feed more  than one protein. We just feel more comfortable with feeding as many proteins as possible just in case the differing nutrient profiles *might* be of value.  

Why do you think you might need to add vit D because of feeding salmon oil? Maybe this is a discussion I've missed?

In the thread you are referring to the kitten was fed only meat, egg yolks and goats milk. What you are feeding in no way compares to that. You are feeding a balanced diet. 

Thank you.  I kind of worry about the high percentage of bones in Tinky's food though.  Hoping that extra 3 lbs of hearts, liver and gizzards bring it down substantially, but not sure how much. ( My brain doesn't process numbers very well

)

 

[mschauer]

Thank you.  I kind of worry about the high percentage of bones in Tinky's food though.  Hoping that extra 3 lbs of hearts, liver and gizzards bring it down substantially, but not sure how much. ( My brain doesn't process numbers very well

)

I see. I was looking for a deficiency of bone and didn't notice that you are feeding Tinky a lot of bone. If you think the 10 lbs of necks and thighs are about 20% bone that means 8 lbs of meat and 2 lbs of bones. 2 lbs is about 15% of 13 lbs so you might be still giving more bone than you want to but if he isn't getting constipated it might be OK. I assume the Alnutrin you use for him is the one without calcium?

 

[mschauer]

Here's a calculation for you:

That 10 lbs of necks and thighs provides 2 lbs of bones. If you want to know how much "other" stuff you need to dilute that down to a specific percent (P) :

stuff = 2 / (P/100)

So, if you wanted your end product to have 7% bone:

stuff = 2 / (7/100)

       = 2/0.07

       = 28.6 lbs

So 2 lbs of bones is 7% of 28.6. To your 13 lbs you would need to add another 15.6 lbs of other stuff (meat, organs, etc) for the 2 lbs bones to be 7% of the final mix.

 

[lcat4]

We seem to keep being on the same wave length, I have contemplated starting this same type of thread.  I'm happy to read mschauer's response since we are feeding similar diets. 

The only comment I would make on Tinky's menu is your use of turkey liver.  From other posts, I know it has a lot more Vit A than other livers, but I assume it's still well within the safe boundaries.  Does Tinky not tolerate chicken or other meats? 

My cats also tend to eat mostly turkey (boneless ground with Alnutrin).  I feed some venison, lamb, or duck every few meals to give variety, but lately, when I do that, Lewis does the old heave-ho, no matter how little I add to his meal.  So that was going to be my question - okay to just feed turkey for awhile? 

This morning, as a last resort test, I decided to COOK some grass fed bottom round steak, diced it, added Alnutrin and water (but no liver) and added it to the turkey as a topper (about 1/3 oz).  Nothing "came up" in the couple hours I was still at home.  Maybe he can no longer do raw red meat, perhaps there was too much fat in those meats?  Anyway, I froze the rest of the cooked meat and will keep trying to add it to his food over a period of time.  I can always add a little canned to his meals too, to give the variety. 

He and Clark also get egg whites every day.  Lewis eats them better than Clark.

I don't use the digestive enzymes, but recently I started adding about 1/2 tsp squash to a meal, serves as a little soluble fiber for gut flora and reduces the phos just a bit for my two boys.  Since they get no other carbs, I am comfortable with that amount. 

The only other thing I want to mention is the amount of Alnutrin being added.  I have been preparing their meats at a 1.25:1 ca/phos ratio.  I've been a little concerned about my scale, it seems to shift a bit mid-weigh, not a big concern for total food quantity, but it is a concern when dealing with only a few grams of powder.  Both Lewis and Clark are at the high end of the Calcium range in their blood work (10.0 and 9.9), besides having above normal BUN and Creatinine numbers (Lewis' Creatinine just went up to 3.3 from 2.8).  My Vet wants me to lower the ca/phos ratio a bit to see if that lowers their blood calcium.  So I prepared the last mix of turkey at 1.18:1.  I don't know if that's enough of a reduction to make any difference?  I also did a calculation that will get it down to 1.09:1.  Would that be a better ratio?  I've also ordered a new scale that goes to 1/100 gram.  I will use it only for the powder. 

So here I am hijacking your thread, again.  Hopefully it's close enough to your situation that any comments will support you.  Who knew so much time can be spent worrying about the details of a cats' diet? 

 

[lcat4]

The two of you had a lot of conversation between the time I started to post and finished posting. 

I'm curious, when dealing with added bone at either 20% or 7% or whatever, how does that correlate to a ratio of 1._:1 in looking at overall ca/phos? 

 

[mschauer]

The only other thing I want to mention is the amount of Alnutrin being added.  I have been preparing their meats at a 1.25:1 ca/phos ratio.  I've been a little concerned about my scale, it seems to shift a bit mid-weigh, not a big concern for total food quantity, but it is a concern when dealing with only a few grams of powder.  Both Lewis and Clark are at the high end of the Calcium range in their blood work (10.0 and 9.9), besides having above normal BUN and Creatinine numbers (Lewis' Creatinine just went up to 3.3 from 2.8).  My Vet wants me to lower the ca/phos ratio a bit to see if that lowers their blood calcium.  So I prepared the last mix of turkey at 1.18:1.  I don't know if that's enough of a reduction to make any difference?  I also did a calculation that will get it down to 1.09:1.  Would that be a better ratio?  I've also ordered a new scale that goes to 1/100 gram.  I will use it only for the powder. 

So here I am hijacking your thread, again.  Hopefully it's close enough to your situation that any comments will support you.  Who knew so much time can be spent worrying about the details of a cats' diet? 

Are you using the calculator on the KnowWhatYouFeed web site to calculate the Ca? If so, does the calculator have all the ingredients you use?

It's interesting that a ratio as low as 1.25 is still resulting in blood calcium at that level. I'll have to call my vet and ask what Zara's blood calcium was in her work up from last week. I've been targeting a ratio of 1.1 myself but have been thinking recently that it might be too low. I'll see what Zara's blood work says first.

 

[mschauer]

The two of you had a lot of conversation between the time I started to post and finished posting. 

I'm curious, when dealing with added bone at either 20% or 7% or whatever, how does that correlate to a ratio of 1._:1 in looking at overall ca/phos? 

Unfortunately I don't know. I tried for a *long* time to figure out how to determine how much calcium and phosphorus there is in a given amount of bone. I had to give up because it just depends too much on too many factors. Weight bearing bones for example are more dense and so contain more minerals than non-weight bearing bones.

 

[lcat4]

I am using the KnowWhatYouFeed Calculator.  I only include what goes in my frozen mix, which is the meat, liver, and water.  I do not include the supplements of fish oil, squash or egg whites in the calculation.  Marta made me a calculator for the duck and venison.  

Based on the USDA nutrient database, the squash is at 1.17:1.  The egg whites are .47:1.  Neither shoot the overall calcium up too high and are a smaller portion of overall food. 

I'd be curious to know Zara's numbers.  What I don't know is if my boys' kidney issues are affecting the calcium in the blood. 

 

[peaches08]

Good reminder for many of us to look at whatever tweaking we have done to our cat food. If I use roughly 16.5 lbs of chicken thighs with bones and half the skin, it comes to about 14.5 lbs. I've been adding 2 lbs of beef lately (may try pork next) which brings it back to about 16.5 lbs. I'm not cutting out any thigh bones right now since adding 2 lbs of other meat. I end up adding enough B-complex, dry E, fish oil, and Morton's Lite salt with iodine for 18 lbs to make sure they get what they need. I almost double the taurine required by Dr. Pierson's recipe. I add 12-18 eggs (whichever is on sale). Am I OK or do I need to change something? Oh...and I double the amount of water for 18 lbs too.

Everyone looks good. Gadget has a lipoma and the vet worried about his weight but some of it is he's just a big cat.

Thanks in advance mrsgreenjeans for allowing me to hijack. And thanks to everyone for any advice!

 

[mschauer]

I'd be curious to know Zara's numbers.  What I don't know is if my boys' kidney issues are affecting the calcium in the blood. 

calcium    9.0 mg.dL (lab normal: 8.2-11.8

BUN        27 (15-34)

creatinine 1.7 (0.8-2.3)

 

[mschauer]

Good reminder for many of us to look at whatever tweaking we have done to our cat food. If I use roughly 16.5 lbs of chicken thighs with bones and half the skin, it comes to about 14.5 lbs. I've been adding 2 lbs of beef lately (may try pork next) which brings it back to about 16.5 lbs. I'm not cutting out any thigh bones right now since adding 2 lbs of other meat. I end up adding enough B-complex, dry E, fish oil, and Morton's Lite salt with iodine for 18 lbs to make sure they get what they need. I almost double the taurine required by Dr. Pierson's recipe. I add 12-18 eggs (whichever is on sale). Am I OK or do I need to change something? Oh...and I double the amount of water for 18 lbs too.

Everyone looks good. Gadget has a lipoma and the vet worried about his weight but some of it is he's just a big cat.

Thanks in advance mrsgreenjeans for allowing me to hijack.

And thanks to everyone for any advice!

Looks good to me! The bone content is higher than what Dr. P recommends but as long as your guys aren't having any constipation problems I guess that is OK.

How old are your cats? My vet says as cats age they can start to have intestinal motility problems that may increase the risk of constipation. You might want to keep that in mind given you are feeding a little more bone than what others might.

 

[peaches08]

Looks good to me! The bone content is higher than what Dr. P recommends but as long as your guys aren't having any constipation problems I guess that is OK.

How old are your cats? My vet says as cats age they can start to have intestinal motility problems that may increase the risk of constipation. You might want to keep that in mind given you are feeding a little more bone than what others might.

Thanks for that! I want to lower the calcium some, I will probably start eliminating some bone again. They have shown signs of mild constipation. Mild, but I still see them strain a bit. I may go back to the original recipe a few times and reevaluate.

Gadget is the oldest, we think he is 2-3 old. He is the worst of the 3 for IBS, diarrhea specifically. Although, moving to raw fixed that right up and literally overnight! But, I don't want the more mildly affected 2 year olds (2 of them) to strain as much so I need to find a happy medium. The extra water doesn't hurt!

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Thanks for reassuring me everyone!  Sorry I've taken so long to get back here.  I  actually read all comments immediately, but sometimes it just takes me awhile to respond

.

Since it's supposed to be 120 degrees here today

, I'm not going anywhere, so have more time on my hands than usual, so can ask that one last little question that has still got me bugged:

Do I NOT need to be worried about the Ca: Phos ratio in any of their food?  If so, how do I figure it out?  (please see my original post to know what I am feeding them)  I understand the calculation of dividing one into the other, but I just don't know how to figure out what the figures are to use

Thanks again

 

[mschauer]

You should certainly be aware that you need to ensure you are providing enough calcium in your fur babies food. The question is how to go about doing that. There are two methods, the Ca method and the 5-10% bone method.

People who feed whole or ground bone use the 5-10% method. They don't know the amount of calcium and phosphorus in their food but it is generally accepted that a diet composed of 5-10% bone will satisfy a cats calcium needs nicely.

For those of us who use a calcium supplement rather than whole or ground bone, we can use the Ca method.

As far as I know neither method has been proven to be better than the other with regards to supplying calcium. It comes down to the preference of both you and your cats.

 

[lcat4]

How timely...I was thinking about you last night.  I read about the cat with the bones in the stomach (seen via x-ray) and my mind tangented to you/Tinky and wondered if you reduced his bone percentage by adding more meat.  I was going to log in today to bump this thread to ask if you had altered his diet.  Has Tinky had a blood test recently?  You could look at the blood calcium and phosphorus levels and see if everything is in the normal range.  If so, and he's not constipated, then all should be good. 

I looked at your recipe vs Dr. Piersons.  She has 2.25 meat/bone combo, cut with .75 meat only, and 4 oz liver (unless in with meat/bone).  So at 10 lb meat/bone, she would add 3.33 lb meat (including hearts, gizzards as meat), and add just over a pound of liver.  So you're only different by about a pound of meat, assuming the meat/bone percentage is the same that she buys.  Something to think about...

You are also adding a little more liver than I do.  I add 6% liver to total meal, you are closer to 9% (ignoring bone).  That's probably good on your part.  I'm trying to keep on the lower side (because of the phosphorus) while still meeting their nutritional needs, but I still wonder if they need a bit more.  The TC Feline recipe that my girls eat has 10% liver and MCHA bone extract.

I just read through all the old links Laurie provided regarding whether a raw diet is better and whether meeting AAFCO requirements are enough.  I was exhausted at the end of my reading and awed by everyone's contribution.  At the end of it all, I've come to the conclusion that we can't really know.  In reality, it's no different than knowing the exact best diet for humans.  We have to pay close attention to our cat.  We have to keep questioning and pay attention to the details.  

My cats are at the high normal for blood calcium, and I am reducing the Alnutrin with Eggshell just a bit to a lower CA/Phos ratio to see if it makes a difference.  I too worry about the secondary Hyperparathyroidism and have thought about adding a PTH test next their blood work.  My understanding is that it is usually caused by not enough calcium being absorbed.  So does high blood calcium numbers mean it's not being absorbed? Or too much absorbed?  The alternative is hypercalcemia.  In my "next life" I hope to have the capacity to understand biochemistry. 

Sorry I can't help more, but wanted to say I was thinking about you.  Lori

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

I try not to worry too much, but can't help it, really.  No, have not done a blood test on Tinky...ever.  He's only 4 and we've just never had the need to run one.  He is NOT constipated, but I do feel the bone percentage is high.  My issue is that he is such a picky eater, and if I add change up his food, he may totally reject it

.  He is the type where if I try to introduce a new protein by just putting in .05 of an oz into 1 oz of his usual food, he will reject the entire meal, so I imagine if I try to add more meat into his mixture, he will surely notice.  I have been pondering what I can do, wondering if I could get away with adding more turkey thigh meat and get away with it, or maybe adding some turkey breast (of which there is NONE in there now, so that's probably not a good idea).  I guess I'll just take a little bit of his current mixture and try adding a little bit of something one meal at a time and see what happens.  I MIGHT even try chicken thighs, since it's so much easier to buy

I'm going to stick with the 10% liver because I don't add any other secreting organ.  You're doing your mix for kidney cats, right.  Tinky doesn't have any health issues at all

and knock wood.  I've only got Callie to worry about (maybe), and right now she is on a total raw strike, so she is on Wellness with egg whites added and seems to really like it, thank goodness.

I guess that kitten with Hyperparathyroidism really got us thinking, and how ironic that most CKD cats suffer from it (if nothing is done such as change in diet, administering fluids, adding vitamins, etc.)

Lori, sounds like you understand biochemistry a whole lot more than I do.  My understanding is zipp, sadly.  That's why I am constantly asking the most inane questions

.  But I'd rather ask and feel like an idiot that harm my babies

 

[lcat4]

Just curious, have you tried offering him any meat, separately, outside of his regular mix, at a different time of day? So he doesn't think you are trying to mess up his regular meal? It would be okay by itself since you're trying to reduce the overall calcium anyway.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Just curious, have you tried offering him any meat, separately, outside of his regular mix, at a different time of day? So he doesn't think you are trying to mess up his regular meal? It would be okay by itself since you're trying to reduce the overall calcium anyway.

Darn it, I  DID try your suggestion, and it was so long ago now, that I can't remember what happened

He MUST have rejected it, else I would be giving him some extra plain meat on the side. 

I tell you...I'm losing it.  (at least I can laugh about it

)

I was just re-reading this thread AGAIN wondering if I could just add egg whites to his mix to decrease the calcium?  Would that work?  He loves egg whites, and with the last batch of his food that I made up, I did pour in about 1/4 cup of pasteurized egg whites to see if he would reject it, and thankfully, he's still eating it

.  That was actually pretty risky on my part since I make up 4 lbs at a time

.  I don't know what I was thinking, but thank goodness it didn't backfire. 

So now I am just wondering if I could actually do this permanently to reduce the Cahos ratio since I really as not liking that 15% bones in there, even though he doesn't eat some of the larger pieces of bone.  And can someone please help me with how to use the Alnutrin calculators?  I can't even figure out how to key in the amount of Alnutrin I use, or is that just a given?  Or does someone (Lori?) have a phone number for them?  They are practically in my backyard, but I've only dealt with them via email.