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[ldg]

The fish toppers you are talking about LDG - where do you get them?  Is that something I can order from Chewy.com?  We are not seafood lovers so I don't know a whole lot about seafood.

The fishy toppers we used were:

Pure Bites freeze dried shrimp
Whole Life freeze dried salmon
Whole Life freeze dried cod
Eden Bonito Flakes

All of these are available on Amazon, though I usually bought them at a locally owned pet store (other than the Eden Bonito Flakes. I bought those at a local health food store). I don't think the big box pet stores carry those. They may, I don't know. :dk: I prefer to give local owners the business when possible.

Oh, and as far as Gage, what about using eggshell and etc. to balance the meat? LDG has a recipe and the measurements to do it per meal (I make large batches).

Yes, balancing his chicken with the eggshell is something that should be done. As long as you're filling up your amazon cart, you can add these, the Norpro Mini Measuring Spoons:
Now - this is not to say that chicken and calcium is a balanced food. It is not. He still needs at least liver, if not liver and kidney. I have some cats that love liver and hate kidney; I have one cat that loves kidney and hates liver. I have one cat that likes liver but can't keep it down (he has trouble with red meat in general), so I use the freeze dried liver in place of fresh. How much you need to give daily depends on the brand of liver used. He won't eat kidney (and can't keep it down), so he gets the equivalent of 10% fresh liver in the form of freeze dried liver. (Unlike the freeze dried raw dinners, these are not meant for rehydration).

To balance the chicken with the right amount of calcium, it takes 1/32 teaspoon of eggshell powder (with the Norpro mini measuring spoons, that is the one marked "Smidgen"). It's very little powder, and even my fussy cats didn't mind it one way or the other. You can either make your own (rinse out your used eggshells, dry them, and then use a coffee grinder or magic bullet or something to powder them - just make sure it's clean with no coffee grounds). You can set them in the sun, or bake them at 300 degrees for 20 minutes to half an hour or something. (Obviously they powder best when completely dry). Since I use it frequently, I buy this: http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com/shop_online.html The eggshell powder is the last item in the eshop.

I would also consider adding some chicken and beef freeze dried liver to the cart. I use Stewart's ProTreat (by Gimborn) chicken livers, and Etta Says beef liver. Whole Life also has freeze dried chicken & beef liver, but like the Stewart's ProTreat beef liver, it is VERY hard, and you have to rub pieces of it together to make powder for a topper, which is a PIA. The Etta Says is expensive but soft and easy to turn into powder for a topper.

...and as long as you're at it, you might want to try either the Pure Bites freeze dried chicken or the Whole Life freeze dried chicken. Start small, just to see if they like it. With 8 cats, I graduated to the 21 ounce bag of Whole Life almost immediately. For my cats, this stuff is like kitty crack. (And mine hated the TC feline as well).

Stella & Chewy's has had a freeze dried chicken/salmon dinner, but I see they've now got a salmon & cod dinner for cats. That might also make a really good topper (don't forget you can use the S&C as a topper, it doesn't have to be the meal).

If Gage likes freeze dried liver, you might want to consider contacting Wysong to ask for a sample of Call of the Wild. This is another supplement that makes meat complete. I use it for Lazlo (who hated TC feline), because he won't eat organs, so I can't feed him prey model raw. http://www.wysong.net/products/cotw-dog-cat-supplement.php

I did buy the TC Feline beef liver plus. But that's no indication of whether or not they'll like beef liver, because Lazlo usually loves the Etta Says freeze dried beef liver.

So, with an arsenal of toppers, the way I would proceed is to continue feeding the canned food. I'd either basically mince the chicken breast, sprinkle on the calcium, and then mix a small amount of that into the canned food, and see if they eat it that way OR I'd put a small bit next to the canned food, and coat it with a topper.

If they eat the chicken mixed into the wet food, I'd VERY SLOWLY increase the amount of chicken/calcium and reduce the amount of canned. If they like the freeze dried liver, you can feed a few pieces a day just as a treat.

If they won't eat the chicken mixed into the canned food, I'd figure out which of the toppers they like best, and put a small amount of chicken (and I mean small: pea sized) next to the canned food and cover it with the topper. Again, I'd mince the chicken, because the idea is that eventually they'll lick the topper off of it, and get a little bit of chicken at times. Over time, they'll get used to it and eventually eat the chicken. And in the meantime, they're eating canned food, getting calories and nutrition.

mrsgreenjeans actually rolled commercial raw food into pea-sized balls and coated it with crushed something, and put 4 or 5 of those in the dish with the food the cats were eating.

Carolina used the little teeny dollop covered in powdered freeze dried treats the cats loved.

I think both had cats that took over a month to even taste the topper or eat the pea-sized raw rolled in crushed/powdered treat. This is a "game" of trickery and patience.

Think of a child that has been eating only sugary cereal for lunch, and you want that child to eat salad for lunch. It's going to take a lot of salad dressing, cheese, and bacon bits to get them to eat it at first. Over time, you can provide less "incentives," and eventually they'll crave the salad. Same thing with the transition to raw.

And if they like kibble, and NONE of the toppers, then use crushed kibble as the topper. Or try Fortiflora (again, you can purchase this from Amazon).

Start small, give them incentives, have patience, and then SLOWLY change the amount of raw vs canned. THEN slowly introduce new proteins.

My cats got bored of the same thing over and over. I had to use canned as the base to introduce each new protein up to 50% of the food mix, which I would do over a couple of days. Once at 50%, I would then rotate which meat proteins were in the canned food. Then we could add more of whatever protein to the canned, and get to 100% raw. But the issue with my kitties wasn't that they didn't like raw so much as it was that they NEEDED variety. I don't like eating the same thing over and over again, so I don't chalk it up to my cats being fussy. :dk:

 

[ldg]

As to the TC feline, you can use it if you like. Just make up a batch - I would recommend mincing the chicken. Freeze it in portions such that each cat gets like 1/8 of a teaspoon or something.

Will they eat that little teeny bit mixed into the canned food?

If not, then just stick it next to the canned food, and use a topper. Because of the strong smell, I suspect that only a freeze dried liver (if they like any) or Fortiflora will work as the topper (if they like fortiflora. Some cats don't).

It's going to take some expense and waste up front to find out what motivates your cats.

 

[catmomof6]

Wow LDG,  my head is spinning.  The biggest problem I face is finding what they like which is not very much.  Hopefully with all your ideas I can find something they like.  Now,  how do you mince your chicken?  Should I run it over a grater like a cheese grater?

 

[ldg]

I just use a knife and chop up boneless thigh or breast into very small pieces. Or you can probably use a food processor?

Yes, the trick is finding those things they like to use as a topper. I'd never fed any of this stuff as treats prior to feeding them raw, so every time we went to the store, I'd pick up a new freeze dried something. :lol3:

FD chicken liver ALWAYS works (knock wood) for Flowerbelle.
FD chicken (breast, Pure Bites or Whole Life) ALWAYS works for Tuxedo.
With Lazlo, I sometimes have to try different things, though salmon seems to be his most reliable choice.
And Spooky will (almost) always dive in if there's Fortiflora on it.

Knock wood, I don't want to jinx it. :lol3:

 

[catmomof6]

I tried a bunch of different options to mince the chicken.

1. I used a knife but couldn't get it small enough - chicken is a pain to cut

2.  I tried a grater - it minced the chicken but couldn't get it out of the grater and the chicken kept getting stuck in the grater.

3.  I got out my food processer - works the best!

Tonight I plan on putting 1/8 tsp of the minced chicken in with their food.  Tomorrow I should have the toppers so I can use them.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

You can also use the Stella And Chewy's as a topper!  It crumbles up really well.  So, if they like it, use it to your advantage.  Mine will only eat S & C dry, they actually HATE it if I rehydrate it, the goofballs.

I think your plan for tonight is good.  1/8th teaspoon of raw mixed into their canned food.  Then if they accept that, you can increase it little by little.  You're going to go ahead and mix it up with the TC Feline, aren't you?  I would, that way they'll get used the taste of it as a meal.  Did you get the TC Feline PLUS, or just the TC Feline?  Makes a difference (the PLUS has the liver added).

What do you plan on using for your raw for ALL the cats once you really start serving it to everyone?  Are you going to buy a commercially prepared 100% nutritionally complete product like Primal or Radcat or Nature's Variety, or order from Hare-Today and add your own supplements, or start completely from scratch?  You said you don't have too many stores to choose from.  I thought the same thing, and I live in a big city.  I just didn't know where to look.  Once I started to search Natural Pet Food Stores, then I found out I had lots of places to shop for raw resources

BTW, as far as supplements go, one of mine uses Alnutrin (one alternative to TC Feline), and one uses Call of the Wild (one alternative to TC Feline PLUS, I believe).  It all depends on what they like, and what you are feeding (raw liver or no liver)

  The one who eats Alnutrin won't go near the Call of the Wild

.  Oh!  And I have one on canned food because she has decided she simply is not going to eat raw anymore.  Period.  She would rather starve.  So be it.  I can't let her starve, so all 3 of mine eat a completely different meal.  One eats ground meat, organs and bones.  One eats large chunks of meat with powdered liver and bones, and the other eats grain free canned.  What am I going to do

  I just go with the flow and try not to stress out TOO badly

 

[ldg]

...and the men in the white coats are waiting to take us to our padded cells... :disturb:



:lol3:

 

[aprilprey]

Catmomof6:

Have you tried another protein? Sorry I am in a bit of a rush so have not read the entire thread so see if you have. Some cats just don't like chicken - I have one of those.  Cooked, raw - she just doesn't like it!  Did you get the TCFeline with chicken liver or beef?  Try beef, lamb or pork.  I know I know...those get pricey - once you move away from the "Chipper Chicken"*** the price just goes up.  What can ya do?

***See "Father of the Bride" starring Steve Martin - the line was delivered by Martin Short - he's trying to say "cheaper chicken" with regards to the cost of the wedding reception dinner - with a cheesy European accent. Ha - CHIPPER CHICKEN!

 

[catmomof6]

Well, I tried my plan tonight and SShhhhhhh.....don't tell them, fooled everyone.  

They all ate it.  I have tried this before but I cut the pieces of chicken up instead of the chicken being minced apparently they weren't small enough.

Mrsgreenjeens:

I was not planning on adding the TC Feline Plus because Gage didn't like it.
 

 I have not decided yet what I was going to do after I have them on raw.  I think the best for me would be raw w/taste of wild of something like that.  I've heard a lot of good things about Hare Today.  I guess I will have to play it by ear since they are the ones letting me know what they like.

I try to go with the flow but I was worried that they weren't getting the right nutrition.

LDG:

The men in the white coats were knocking at my door today, but I didn't answer it!!!

 

aprilprey:

I have tried different proteins, they didn't like them either.  I got TCFeline w/chicken liver, I wasn't sure about the beef since I have tried raw beef and they didn't like it. 

 

[aprilprey]

Ah well then - fussy little things!  Keep at it - something's gotta work eventually!

 

[catmomof6]

Did same thing today...everyone ate, had no problems except for Gage.  

 He would not eat his canned mixed with chicken so I put some freeze dried shrimp on it, nope, not a chance.  I then put freeze dried cod on it, nope, not a chance.  I then put bonita flakes on it, nope, not a chance.    I then scrapped the whole thing and started over with freeze dried chicken liver over raw chicken.  He loved that!    

  I haven't received the eggshell powder yet but it's on the way then I will add it to the chicken and liver mix.  Do I need to add anything else?   I am also waiting on the Call of the Wild to come, they are sending a sample.  

Baby steps!!!!       

AND

One day at a time!!!   

 

 

[ldg]

Oooo, he likes the freeze dried liver? That's a great one, because it smells so strong. It will also make balancing his meals a LOT easier!

Yep - it can be a chore figuring out what to use. But hopefully he consistently likes something. :lol3:

 

[catmomof6]

LDG...let's put it this way he liked freeze dried liver last night, who knows today if he will like it.

Should I keep feeding him the same -raw chicken w/freeze dried liver as long as he eats it?   Do I need to add anything other than the powder eggshell?

 

[catmomof6]

 

[ldg]

No, one protein, liver, and calcium are not a balanced diet. So yes, he needs more than just that.

You eventually will need to decide if you're going to make ground, buy ground, or feed prey model raw (or "boneless" prey model raw).

Technically, a balanced prey model raw diet is 80% meat, 10% bone, 5% liver, 5% other secreting organ (many use beef kidney, but other secreting organs are spleen, pancreas, thymus, brain, eyes - I'm probably forgetting some). Most feeding PMR include hearts and gizzards as part of the meat component (these are muscle organs and don't secrete anything, so their nutrient profile is like meat, not like secreting organs): hearts are high in taurine; gizzards are good for chewing and have glucosamine and chrondroitin for joint health. To provide choline and vitamin D, egg yolks and sardines are usually provided weekly, and, IMO, an important part of the diet.

Those feeding a "boneless" prey model raw diet have cats that like chunks of meat, but aren't eating bone. So we follow the PMR guidelines, but substitute the bone for something else: eggshell, freeze dried bone, bone meal, or homemade bone meal (made from fresh bone, so not subject to the same process as commercial bone meal).

Some people use supplements instead of providing a sole PMR diet. With Alnutrin (which you can purchase with or without calcium), you need only provide meat and liver (or meat, liver and bone). Many additionally provide a source of omega 3s, whether via salmon oil, krill oil, or sardines (tinned in water, no salt). Unlike TC feline, the Alnutrin can just be sprinkled on (though if the cats eat the dry TC feline, it can probably be sprinkled on too, instead of mixed with water and then the chunks mixed in).

I feed primarily a "boneless" PMR diet, but I also provide a homemade supplement that includes taurine, iodine, manganese, vitamin E, and a B-complex. I feed the egg yolks and sardines, and I use 500mg of salmon oil daily.

The freeze dried liver can be used in place of fresh, though it's better to at least try to introduce fresh liver.

If feeding PMR, it is important to provide a rotation of proteins AND different parts of the animal within those proteins. Chicken thigh has different nutrient values than chicken breast, for example. Beef liver has a different profile than chicken liver (though all liver is high in vitamin A, which is the primary source of vitamin A for our kitties eating raw), etc. etc. etc.

I do have four cats that won't eat kidney. To work around that:

One loves fresh liver. I give her 5% liver, and she gets her 5% "other secreting organ" as liver or pancreas.
One can't keep fresh liver or kidney down. He gets his 5% liver as the freeze dried equivalent to fresh, and either fresh pancreas as the 5% other secreting organ, o4 5% freeze dried liver equivalent to fresh.

Two won't eat any organs reliably, fresh or freeze dried. One gets meat with a supplement that makes just meat complete: Call of the Wild (by Wysong). I tried the TC feline PLUS with beef liver, because he does like beef liver, but he hated that. So CoTW it is.

The other one gets freeze dried beef liver as treats when she'll eat them. But her source of vitamin A is cod liver oil. She does get and like fresh pancreas.

Because they're not all necessarily eating what they *should* be, I rotate freeze dried glandular supplements. I sprinkle one capsule of something on their late night meal every night. I buy spleen, pancreas (because I can't always get it fresh), beef brain and thymus from Amazon, the brand is Nutricology Immoplex. They all eat this without a problem.

I actually put up a thread with pictures for the prep of our daily organ meal: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/264489/making-a-meal-pictures

...and this is why so many people make homemade ground food, because you can easily add all the needed stuff and know kitty is getting a balanced food at each meal, and not worry about who is eating how much of what. :lol3:

Some prefer buying ground mixes and adding whatever supplement (like Alnutrin). http://www.hare-today.com and http://www.mypetcarnivore.com provide whole ground animal ground mixes. These are easy to use with the addition of Alnutrin for meat/bones/organs (the one without calcium added) - and you know kitty is getting everything they need.

Some buy those and add their own supplements, egg yolks, etc, basically following Dr. Lisa Pierson's recipe, just using the ground mixes as the base rather than buying a grinder and grinding up rabbit, chicken thighs and bones: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

This site has a recipe similar to Dr. Piersons, but makes it easier via the instructions to use whatever proteins you want, and has pictures of the process: http://www.catnutrition.org/


************************************

So to summarize, if you're going to feed Gage boneless PMR, he needs to be introduced to other proteins at some point. If you're feeding chicken breast, you should consider introducing him to chicken thigh at some point. You don't *need* to feed hearts and gizzards, but if not feeding hearts, I'd be supplementing taurine, at least 250mg a day. He should have a sardine weekly, and an egg yolk weekly. Again - some cats love both, some cats hate both.

You CAN use a supplement like Alnutrin with calcium (there's also the option to use eggshell as the source), so long as he's eating chicken and at least freeze dried liver. How much freeze dried liver he needs daily depends on which one you're using. He would still benefit by the addition of omega 3s.

Finally, I provide all of my cats with a probiotic daily. This is because the low-fiber diet doesn't provide the same growth medium for gut bacteria - and in the wild, they'd be eating the entire mouse or rabbit or bird or whatever, and thus the cats would be getting a dose of probiotics with every meal (basically). I use primarily supermarket meat, so I want my cats to have healthy intestinal flora to fight off any nasties to which they may be exposed because of the (mostly) factory farmed meat they eat.

 

[catmomof6]

Ok...what was confusing me was the 80, 10, 5, 5%.  I didn't know how to break that down to lbs, so the whole concept was confusing me but the light bulb has now come on!!!!   I think I am going to do PMR, although I don't know if the cats want to do PMR.  They are the bosses so we will have to figure that out.

So my next plan is follow http://www.catnutrition.org.   But instead of all of my kids eating all raw (because they are not transitioned yet)  I will put 1/8tsp. in with their canned, then gradually increase raw and decrease canned to get them transitioned.  Also, I will only be working with chicken for now then adding different proteins.

Do you think I should leave the organs out and give them separate at first to see if they like them?

Or should I just put them in the mix?

 

[ldg]

Those feeding a "boneless" prey model raw diet have cats that like chunks of meat, but aren't eating bone. So we follow the PMR guidelines, but substitute the bone for something else: eggshell, freeze dried bone, bone meal, or homemade bone meal (made from fresh bone, so not subject to the same process as commercial bone meal).

Oh geez, I realized I'd better clarify this. We do NOT use 10% eggshell powder or bone meal, or freeze dried bone. No, these are used based on the amount of elemental calcium in whatever we use in the correct amount to balance the phosphorus in whatever meat / organ we're feeding. And most of us bump the 80% meat to 90% meat, so a boneless PMR is 90% meat, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organ. It's not "mathematically" following PMR guidelines, but it works. :lol3:

We have the tables here for how much eggshell or freeze dried bone to use for meat and organs, and if you want to use bone meal, we can help you figure it out based on whatever you buy (if they provide the needed info - which is the amount of phosphorus and ELEMENTAL calcium in the supplement).

 

[ldg]

Do you think I should leave the organs out and give them separate at first to see if they like them?

Or should I just put them in the mix?

For the organs, I would buy a little bit of chicken liver first, and offer them literally a bite of it to see if they like it first. If you can access fresh beef kidney where you live, same thing for that.

I had a few cats that liked both right off the bat. FYI, it's really best not to feed the organ portion of the meal separately: most cats can't tolerate it and just throw it up.

This may help: this is a sample (traditional) PMR menu plan: http://catcentric.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/My-Feeding-Schedule.pdf

Obviously this includes bone as the source of calcium.

But the bottom line is that to figure out the proportions of everything, you need to know how much (raw) food your cats eat daily.

Since so many of my cats have issues with eating organs, I decided it was just easier to feed a small amount at one meal a day, rather than split the organs up into a couple of meat/organ meals a week (as in the above menu example). I describe how I do it in the "Making a meal with pictures" thread I linked to above.

 

[ldg]

Oh - totally forgot to add... the way I got some of the kitties eating organs was ... to use toppers. :lol3: A LOT of them. I definitely started smaller than the 5% and worked up to it. :nod:

For one of the kitties, the amount of topper was definitely more than the amount of organ for a while there.

 

[catmomof6]

So far so good, keep fingers crossed.  Gage is liking the freeze dried liver and I have another boy Nickey that also likes freeze dried liver!  I ordered meat and organs from Hare today yesterday and also ordered supplements.  Can you believe I cannot even find the supplements locally?  I have to order online.   Can't wait until they get here so we can start our new journey!!

I am still adding 1/8 tsp raw chicken to the others canned food and they have been eating no problem should I continue with 1/8 tsp or put more in?