Manny's Dna Test, My Absense And, Florence

[Mamanyt1953]

Although to be fair, cat genetics, insofar as ancestry testing goes, is still pretty much in its infancy.

 

[lutece]

It doesn't matter how advanced the genetic test is.... It can't give meaningful results if it's trying to test for breed ancestry in cats that don't have any of those breeds in their ancestry. You might as well test how closely related a cat is to a list of dog breeds. You could theoretically get a result (your cat's closest match is German Shepherd!) since all animals share DNA. But it wouldn't mean your cat had German Shepherd ancestors.

 

[sabian]

Thanks Mamanyt1953 for the info. I popped over and checked it out and registered. I pretty much got the results I expected, that he probably has a big breed background. I mainly done the test out of curiosity and I got a discount. Being an early subscriber I get life time free updates so, I'm gonna give the Basepaws thing some more time. In Manny's case, knowing his back story, he was a stray and not feral. He belonged to a couple that separated, moved, and just left him and another cat to fend for themselves at around 4 months old. It was entirely possible he could have come from a low level breeder.

Like you said, with DNA testing being so new it goes back to database and, as the database grows they should be able to pinpoint more accurately a cats ancestry. Some breeders I've talked to test at Davis, NC State and Washington State. Mainly for genetics like HCM not DNA. Breeders have no reason to do that if there's a paper trail so, I don't know that their database would be any better for ancestry. Manny's results could have come back hamburger steak and I wouldn't love him any less, though!, I would have questioned those results!...lol

In thefiresidecat case. Our conversation started on another thread Share Your Maine Coon Photos... where I made a comment about Manny's results that was total sarcasm! With the results she got there would be no harm in making contact to be sure there wasn't a mix up. With the correspondence I had with the owner, I'm sure she would want to know if mix ups were occurring so she could address the issue.

Hope things are going well for you and life is getting back to normal! My heart goes out to your neighbors who didn't fair as well. I hope they are getting the assistance they need. Looks like there may be another rain event coming our way from the storm in the gulf. Keep your eye on the weather!

 

[Mamanyt1953]

FEMA has been a huge help. They did get checks that will help replace basic necessities, and our local churches and charities are going all out! Sadly, a few people who lost NOTHING are making the rounds for "freebies," and taking from those in real need. I despise those people. One of my neighbors has over 20 boxes of canned goods and clothing stacked in her apartment, and ONLY lost the food in her fridge! And it's legal. Well. Karma is a real ladydog, and her day will come. Hek and I are FINE. Food is replaced, and I'll be able to start repaying some folks who kindly sent cash to get me over the hump.

 

[thefiresidecat]

I have an updated report that looks A LOT better. now dante is 94% more like norwegian forest cat than anything else and the next closest is Russian blue at 59% and then turkish angora at 50% things make sense now. lol

 

[sabian]

I have an updated report that looks A LOT better. now dante is 94% more like norwegian forest cat than anything else and the next closest is Russian blue at 59% and then turkish angora at 50% things make sense now. lol

thefiresidecat That does make a lot more sense!

Manny's 2nd tests came back as NFC @ 98.45%, Russian Blue @ 87.85%, Persian @ 84.03%. Down the line was Turkish Angora @ #5 @ 73.26%, Siberian @ #6 @ 70.91%. I think Siberian was #6 in the last report. Now Ragdoll is @ #7 @ 27.04% and MC @ #9 @ 22.75%.

Ragdoll and MC was # 1 and 2 in the first report. NFC didn't even show up in the first report. I think I can safely say he has big breed genes in him. I'll just tell people he's one of those big breed watcha ma call its! ….lol

 

[thefiresidecat]

sabian second tests.. were those the ones from march? because they updated again i think. we went from abby as main result, next batch they had high results for abby again and ragdoll. this time the only high result was NFC which wasn't even in the last one. (I still think they may have gotten his results mixed up with someone elses and just never came clean about it)

I'd believe manny was a purebred nfc.

 

[sabian]

thefiresidecat I've only had one update since the original results and, it was in March sooooo, maybe I'll be getting another one soon. If I do I'll update here.

It's very possible they may have had a mix up. Seems like they got flooded with kits and I'm sure mistakes have been made. Especially being an upstart company.

I've always thought it may be possible Manny is purebred, if only from a low level breeder. According to the foster and the girl from the rescue I got him from, he belong to a couple and they separated and moved. They just abandoned him and another cat and the neighbors made sure they had food and water. Their landlord wouldn't let them keep them inside but, didn't have a problem with them feeding them. They had also set them up a little shelter under a porch to keep them out of the elements until they could get them to a no kill shelter. He definitely has big breed characteristics with the way he walks and carry's himself as well as his personality.

I'm curious to see if I get another update and what it says!

 

[thefiresidecat]

I also have suspicions about dante being purebred. for the same reasons. we have a back yard nfc breeder in walking distance from here and he has hyper keratosis on his nose. we suspect they were going to keep him as a stud but that showed up so they booted him. or he escaped and they didn't pursuit him or or.. lol. we figured it out a few months after we got him but given the shape he was in when we found him we weren't going to pursuit that. if he was from there and showed up here with no signs of anyone looking for him no microchip no neuter and rotten health then they don't deserve him.

 

[sabian]

thefiresidecat Been meaning to post back about the last update from basepaws on Manny. The last one actually came back 80 % Siberian. I think a 4th update is coming out soon and some may have already gotten them. I haven't really studied these updates or read them thoroughly but I kind of suspected Siberian all along. It seems like they may be honing in a little more as time goes on though.

 

[lutece]

For those who believe that their Basepaws results tell them definitively that their cat belongs to a rare breed (such as NFC or Siberian), I challenge you to also test your cats through UC Davis and see if they also come up with that breed through UC Davis

If they really are that breed... it would show up on the UC Davis test.

Note that when these Basepaws tests say something like 80% Siberian... it doesn't mean that Basepaws thinks your cat is 80% Siberian.

 

[lutece]

Some breeders I've talked to test at Davis, NC State and Washington State. Mainly for genetics like HCM not DNA. Breeders have no reason to do that if there's a paper trail so, I don't know that their database would be any better for ancestry.

The UC Davis database does contain information for all the many, many purebred cats that are tested through UC Davis for various disorders. So their breed database is large.

UC Davis also does breed diversity testing for cat breeders, even though only the dog diversity testing is listed on their web site (they work privately with breed organizations to do this). I only happen to know this because I have been talking with them about doing diversity testing for my own breed. In general, Davis does a lot more research than what is visible to the public on their web site. They are not a for-profit company like Basepaws, so they don't need to market their products like Basepaws does.

 

[sabian]

lutece Look, I'm 55 years old, my IQ is 130, been around cats all my life, have worked with ferals and, have been involved with breeding off and on over the years. Though I've never bred myself I know people who do. I've also done a lot of research on cats through the years. Having said that, I in no way know it all.

I'm under no illusion of what these Basepaw reports are saying. This was an ongoing conversation that me and thefiresidecat have had about test results here and on other threads over time. That's why I directed the comment to her.

The Basepaws report is divided up into 4 groups. Western, Eastern. Exotic, Persian. Manny's likelihood according to the cats "in their database" to being similar in these groups is 40.5% Western, 10% Eastern, 4.3% exotic, 13.3% Persian. Of these 4 groups his closest similarity in each is, Western - Siberian 80.59%, Eastern - Peterbald 93.96 %, Exotic - Egyptian Mau 88.28 %, Exotic - Exotic Short Hair 96.5% and again, of the cats "in their database". So since he is most similar to Western and most similar to Siberian, I think it's safe to say his top match is Siberian. No where in my post did I say he was purebred or even 80% Siberian. I didn't feel the need to spell that out to firesidecat because she receives a report and can read between the lines.

It seems that there are some members that feel compelled to discredit Basepaws for some reason. I've seen post to the effect that they are telling people that their cats are purebred because "it's what they want to here". I'll be willing to bet that none of these members have submitted a DNA sample to them and have not seen an actual report. I don't even know how it would be possible for Basepaws to do that since all they have is DNA and a pic if you decide to post that in your site profile. How would they know what purebred I want my cat to be so they can give me the right answer? From my experience so far, all I see, is them trying to give accurate information as it becomes available.

It is not uncommon to get a purebred through adoption from a shelter or other means. Not every shelter cat came from a feral colony. I have reason to believe that Manny could be purebred from his history. I'm not trying to wish him into something he is not. I don't believe that because he has long hair that he is a purebred. I just simply want to know more about my cat. Call it curiosity if you will.

I chose to send a DNA sample to Basepaws again, out of curiosity and, by getting in early you get free lifetime updates for being an early supporter which, may not always be the case. I don't think UC Davis is going to do that. UC Davis itself admits that their test are 90% accurate so, there is room for error. Just because you have your cats screened for disease there doesn't mean that one of your cats won't have a disease. There is no utopia. If you would like to flip the bill for a test there I'll be glad to send a sample to them or anywhere else you'd like. Otherwise, If I decide to send them a sample it will be because of my decision and not a challenge.

This was the second time you quoted and lectured me in 2 different post in 1 day. It's not the first time it's happened either. To be honest you tend to come across as condescending in my opinion but, then again, maybe it's me reading more into it than I should. None the less, it's incidences like this why I chose to no longer regularly post on the forums and give advice. I'm not singling you out, they're are others as well. I've just found it simpler to stick to forums where you just post pics or whatever. It was fun at first but some members are rigid in their views and not very tolerant of differing views. I deal with that enough in real life.

 

[lutece]

This was the second time you quoted and lectured me in 2 different post in 1 day. It's not the first time it's happened either. To be honest you tend to come across as condescending in my opinion but, then again, maybe it's me reading more into it than I should.

Hi sabian , I will respond to this part first, as I'm sorry if you felt lectured or condescended to! Some people feel that way about my posts, and it is not intended. In my posts I am generally just trying to explain things as clearly as I can. This often gets wordy and nerdy. I do like to argue a point but this doesn't mean I think any less of the person I am arguing with, or meant to put them down. I've been in some school and work environments where you have to be very careful to state your disagreement with someone in such a way that you do not offend them... and also in other school and work environments where it is culturally OK to disagree straight out and have an excited and passionate argument... I get along a lot better in the second type of environment!

I've seen post to the effect that [Basepaws] are telling people that their cats are purebred because "it's what they want to here". I'll be willing to bet that none of these members have submitted a DNA sample to them and have not seen an actual report. I don't even know how it would be possible for Basepaws to do that since all they have is DNA and a pic if you decide to post that in your site profile. How would they know what purebred I want my cat to be so they can give me the right answer? From my experience so far, all I see, is them trying to give accurate information as it becomes available.

I absolutely do think Basepaws' reports are influenced by the fact that Basepaws is a for-profit company. They have to make their customers satisfied so that other people will get excited about ordering Basepaws' product. That doesn't mean that Basepaws tells people "what they want to hear" in the sense that someone thinks they have a Maine Coon and Basepaws tells that specific person that they have a Maine Coon But, I do think Basepaws "tells people what they want to hear" in the sense that every cat gets a report with lots of breed matches.

Basepaws' marketing is very focused on social media. They work through bloggers and other "influencers" posting reviews and video. Their marketing strategy depends on people posting about the exciting and interesting results they received. Other people see those results and want to try Basepaws for themselves. This is the only way Basepaws will survive as a for-profit company.

Basepaws' only product right now is the breed report. Most customers would be disappointed to hear from Basepaws that their cat is simply "Polycat" without any breed matches. Most want to hear that their cat is either some specific breed, or a mixture of breeds. We frequently see the sentiment in the Describing Cats forum that finding a rare breed cat in a shelter is equated with "winning the lottery." That expresses the excitement that many people feel about the idea that their cat might be an Egyptian Mau or a Turkish Angora or some other breed. So Basepaws gives every person a complicated, interesting, exciting report with lots of breed matches.

If a person receives a report with a lot of breed matches and percentages that are difficult to interpret, they can read all kinds of things into that. A person who wants to believe, for example, that their cat has significant Siberian ancestry can easily read the "80%" number that you mentioned as "Basepaws says my cat is 80% Siberian" or "my cat is 80% likely to have Siberian ancestry." Basepaws is very careful to say that a breed match doesn't actually indicate ancestry from that breed... but practically speaking, it does help Basepaws if people interpret the report as saying that their cat has rare breed ancestry, and post about that on social media... as other people reading such posts are more likely to be excited about Basepaws, and buy reports because of that.

So yes, that's why I do feel Basepaws gives customers the results that they want. They are not falsifying their results, but for the most part there is no way to verify Basepaws' findings because the majority of the cats they are testing aren't any specific breed. No one is making breeding decisions based on a Basepaws report, it is purely for fun (as opposed to UC Davis VGL, which produces results used every day in companion animal breeding, wildlife conservation, and animal agriculture). Basepaws can spin their data any way they want in their reports to please their customers.

 

[lutece]

I'll address one of your other points now, as you made a lot of points it takes more than one post for me to address them

It is not uncommon to get a purebred through adoption from a shelter or other means. Not every shelter cat came from a feral colony. I have reason to believe that Manny could be purebred from his history. I'm not trying to wish him into something he is not. I don't believe that because he has long hair that he is a purebred. I just simply want to know more about my cat. Call it curiosity if you will.

It is absolutely possible to get a purebred through adoption from a shelter... I wouldn't say it is "not uncommon" to get one, because numerically speaking there simply aren't enough purebreds in existence to be "common"... But yes it's definitely *possible,* and in fact I have friends who rescued a Norwegian Forest Cat. My friends just wanted to adopt a cat, knowing nothing about pedigreed cats (they had other rescue cats as well). He didn't look very impressive at that time, as he was not in good condition, but they fell in love with him and adopted him, and took care of him, getting him back in good condition physically and mentally. It turned out that he had been surrendered to a shelter with his registration papers. They found out more about the breed and then decided to try showing him. They ended up getting a national win on the cat last year. Scroll down to see Aharon: CFA's Top Cats in Premiership, Regions 1-9, for the 2018-19 show season

We do hear about other individual stories like this, although most are not as dramatic as this "Cinderella" story! And there are several breeds (such as the Siberian, NFC, etc) that are "moderate" enough in type that millions and millions of cats approximately fit their description, and COULD be pet quality examples of these breeds. The low number of total individuals in these breeds means that not many unknown cats could be genuine matches, so statistically speaking, it is very unlikely to be true for any individual cat... however, unlikely things do happen every day!

 

[sabian]

lutece You bring up a lot of good points and in some cases we may just have to agree to disagree.

I understand what your saying about the 2 environments. I've been in both myself and I also prefer the later environment but, over time have learned that it's best to pick and choose your battles, especially in the politicly correct environment we live in. I think the thing that you need to keep in mind is that a lot of members here my be new to the cat world or, may have had a number of cats over the years and just like cats but, are not that educated about cats. They're not cat nerds like some of us, so to speak. If you come across as over bearing or argumentative they'll just shut down and stop posting, asking questions or, contributing.

I once had a post removed because I took up for someone. A girl had posted a thread and she had taken in a stray kitten. She was keeping the kitten outside in an enclosure. It had food water and, shelter. She said she spent a couple hours a day with it. She couldn't keep the kitten inside because her living quarters were adjoined to a restaurant that she ran because of health department regulations. She said that the kitten wouldn't stop crying. A member came on and blasted her and said she was abusing the kitten. Of course the OP was upset about the comment and apologizing that she didn't know she was abusing it. I, being me, took up for her. That clearly is not abuse! Maybe somewhat neglectful but, not abuse. Everyone was encouraging her to try and keep it inside and she had said that she would try. Anyway, My post disappeared and I got an email it was under review. I didn't pursue it and I never got an explanation. I was like, oh well, guess you gotta walk on egg shells round here! To my knowledge the girl has never posted again.

A staff member did reach out about this conversation and I could have flagged it but, I didn't want to jump to conclusions and make a big deal out of it. I just basically told them to let it go and we would work it out.

Back to your points! I see what your saying about basepaws. I guess there are some people out there that may act like they hit the lottery because of a results they got. Maybe it is like dangling a carrot. I'm not that naïve about it though. I take it with a grain of salt and have a wait and see approach. To play the devils advocate though. With thefiresidecat 's situation. Her first results came back Tonkinese so she was totally not happy with the results. So couldn't it have the reverse effect? Could that actually be incentive to actually try harder to get it right? I did see that UC Davis goes to cat shows and gets samples from cats at shows. I have no clue if basepaws does this or not. I may get a test done at UC eventually.

As far as the "describing my cat" forum. I think a lot of people that post there just want to get an idea of what they may have. If only to be able to tell friends or family that they think maybe it could be MC or what ever. I sure some take it to heart and want to be believe it's actually what they think it is. You can't control how they're going to process the information. I try not to lead them to believe that they are a particular breed but, just try and give them an educated guess of what it possibly could be. There's nothing wrong with that. That's what the forum is actually for. That's why there is the disclaimer. I usually explain that without papers there's no way to know for sure, they could get a DNA test, but if I had to guess, the closest lookalike is....Blah. If someone else has explained all that I may not. Sometime there's a consensus, sometimes not. I very rarely see you give even a suggestion of what it could possibly be. You can give them all the technical mumbo jumbo but you could also give them an guess of what it might possibly be. Most of them don't understand all the technical stuff anyway. You seem to want to compare every cat to show standards and you just can't do it. There are some cats people post that there is an obvious lookalike and some not at all. I just call them as I see them disagree or not. I've seen cats on there that they are obvious purebred's. You just don't get a cat of certain colors and patterns randomly. I've even seen Jackson Galaxy say, well your cat is a so and so and they have these traits. I seen him once working with a feral colony point and say, now that's a Maine Coon! @basscat has a Bobcat. I'm pretty sure it didn't come with papers but, it's a Bobcat! Sometimes, if it walks like a duck and, talks like a duck.....it's a duck.

I'm sure you know there are a crap ton of backyard breeders out there. Just go on oodles.com. There everywhere. A lot of them are actually breeding purebreds. Back when I got my MC I could have bought breeding rights and got papers or I could have not got breeding rights and got papers upon proof of spay or neuter. There was no repercussion other than not getting papers if I didn't provide proof of spay or neuter. I could still breed him. Breeders are a little more diligent about that now and it's not as easy to do that but I'm sure it happens. I found this web site with a quick search: Pretty maine coons
Voila, a MC for $500! You can order them like a pair of socks from JC Penny. I didn't see anything about papers on the sight. Now if you actually get the cat that is pictured, I'd bet my you know what that your getting a MC. Now it might be inbred! Who knows!? But, those are MC's! And, free shipping too! Hot Dang! That's better than a rollback sell at Wally World! Not everyone is a cat nerd. Lot a people just want and bargain basement MC and they don't know no betta! Oh, and by da way! We don't charge extra for the fleas and ear mites! They are free of charge! Just consider that a bonus! So for that reason alone I think there may be ALOT more purebreds out there than you realize...

Anywho, It's obvious your knowledgeable about cats. I don't dispute that. I just think you could soften your approach a little. That's up to you. I have a better understanding of where your coming from so I don't have a problem with you....we're good. But if other members feel like you come across as abrasive and you get flagged enough it could result in getting the boot. I don't know how they really handle that. Just sayin.

 

[lutece]

Hi sabian , thanks for your post! You make a lot of points in your post which I hope to respond to later, but just starting with this one

I very rarely see you give even a suggestion of what it could possibly be.

Yes, it's true that I don't often give a suggestion of what BREED it could possibly be. That's for a few different reasons.

• To me, the vast majority of the cats in the forum simply do not look like a "lookalike" of any particular breed at all. It would be not be honest for me to say I thought it looked like any breed. When I think a cat looks like a particular breed or has features that indicate breed ancestry, I do say so.

• I don't feel that I would be doing anyone a favor to say something that suggests that their cat is likely to be a breed, when it's actually very unlikely that their cat is that breed. If someone on the forum tells a person that their cat is a "good lookalike to a Norwegian Forest Cat," or "might be an NFC" or "might have some NFC in its background," people often seem to hear that as "my cat has a 90% chance to be a NFC!" (or even "my cat is definitely a NFC!") when the real fact of the matter might be that their cat has a very, very small chance of being an NFC... maybe 0.01% chance of being a NFC? (using my best estimate of the number of longhaired cats in the US that vaguely look sort of like an NFC, vs. the number of actual NFC cats ). Many people coming to the forum start out with the assumption that their cat is some breed, or a mix of breeds, and they just need to find out which breed or mix it is... so any time someone mentions a breed name, they often seem to latch onto it as a likely possibility, even if it's qualified with "your cat MIGHT be..."

• But the MOST important reason I describe cats the way I do is actually that I truly believe that domestic shorthairs and longhairs are wonderful cats with lots of interesting characteristics all their own and that cats do not need to be any breed, a mix of breeds, or a breed "lookalike," to be special and beautiful cats!!! I don't think there is anything wrong with being a domestic longhair or shorthair and I think it is perfectly fine for a cat to be described that way. Almost all of the interesting traits that we see in pedigreed cats originally came from some domestic cat somewhere in the world, and there are many more wonderful traits out there in the domestic cat gene pool waiting to be discovered. I would rather have people come away from the forum thinking "I have a beautiful and special blue patched tabby and white domestic longhair!" rather than "My cat might be a Norwegian Forest Cat, and that would make her really special and rare!" I don't want people to think that their cat's specialness has to do with some possibility that they might "win the lottery" and find out their cat has rare breed ancestry. I truly believe it is "enough" for a cat to be a domestic shorthair or longhair, and they wouldn't be "more" if it turned out that they had ancestry from some breed or were a "lookalike" of some breed.

If you have any ideas about how to get that last message across to more people, I would be all ears. I try to convey that message by making comments about interesting characteristics I see in the cat independently of the question of "breed ancestry," but often I don't have the time to say a whole lot, other than to try to describe the cat as honestly and accurately as I can.

 

[sabian]

If you have any ideas about how to get that last message across to more people, I would be all ears. I try to convey that message by making comments about interesting characteristics I see in the cat independently of the question of "breed ancestry," but often I don't have the time to say a whole lot, other than to try to describe the cat as honestly and accurately as I can.

Yeah it's simple, you just say:

There's no way to tell for sure without papers. You could do a DNA test to get more information but, if I had to make a guess I would say the closest lookalike is ….. He / She is a beautiful kitty and all kitty's are special in their own way no matter the breed! Other wise they would be considered a Blah, Blah, Blah.

 

[lutece]

To me, that doesn't communicate what I want to say.

I don't feel that handing out a "closest lookalike" to every cat really communicates the message that "domestic longhairs and shorthairs are just as special as any breed." I would like people to be happy with their cat being the wonderful domestic shorthair or longhair that it is. Not to think their cat is more special because it is a lookalike of some breed or "might be" some breed. A breed or "lookalike" label doesn't make your cat more special.

And I also don't feel that suggesting DNA testing to everyone is a way of saying the cat is special just the way they are, either. To me, suggesting DNA testing feels like, "your cat might be a special breed if the DNA testing company says so!" ("you might win the lottery!") instead of "your cat is wonderful and special just the way they are!"

 

[AbbysMom]

Here comes the moderator!

A few reminders.... Discussing Moderator actions is against our rules. If you have an issue with how something is handled, please do take it up with Anne, the Site Owner. She appreciates feedback. Don't hesitate. If you don't want to contact Anne, PM one of the Mods. We absolutely make mistakes, we rush and at times we may forget to send PM's. We're human too. In most cases when something happens we do discuss it among all of us and it's not just one Mod deciding.

None the less, it's incidences like this why I chose to no longer regularly post on the forums and give advice. I'm not singling you out, they're are others as well. I've just found it simpler to stick to forums where you just post pics or whatever. It was fun at first but some members are rigid in their views and not very tolerant of differing views. I deal with that enough in real life.

If you see something over the line, please don't hesitate to report it. I totally agree that posts like that can and do scare new members away. I looked back at the thread you are referencing and the member did come back and start another thread...and got another cringe-worthy post in it from a member. Hasn't posted since that one.

If you have any ideas about how to get that last message across to more people, I would be all ears. I try to convey that message by making comments about interesting characteristics I see in the cat independently of the question of "breed ancestry," but often I don't have the time to say a whole lot, other than to try to describe the cat as honestly and accurately as I can.

Honestly, a smiley or two goes a long way in getting your feeling across on here. It's not a face to face conversation so people can't interpret your tone. A well-placed smile really does help let them know how you feel. I am usually fairly short and to the point on here and come off quite abrupt. I don't actually mean to be that way (well, most of the time ) so I try to interject a few smilies.

We do ask members that if they have a personal issue with another member to take it to private messages. I think the discussion here on BasePaws is really interesting and don't want to have to start deleting posts because you are getting too personal. Getting too personal also scares new members away.

I personal find the BasePaws tests interesting. As mentioned above, it is in its infancy. Ancestry, 23 and me, etc. also had to start from somewhere. Many also think thee tests are all fake. I know some of my results are very bizarre, but I do think that with another update they could make more sense.