Let's talk about calcium and bones!

[ldg]

OK, I just compared the graphic you posted with the table I posted a link to.

Graphic says:

Chicken wings: 46% bone
Chicken neck: 36% bone
Chicken breast: 20% bone
Chicken thigh: 21% bone
Chicken leg: 33% bone
Chicken back: 44% bone

The table - which has references - says:

Wings: 30.5% bone
Breast: 14.8% bone
Legs: 18.4% bone
Back: 49% bone
Total: 26.2% bone*

*But the sum of the "total" is just the wings, breast, legs & back. We don't know if leg in this table includes the thigh; and the "total" doesn't include any of the organs, gizzards, etc. So feeding "whole ground animal" chicken, the bone percent is definitely less than 26.2%.

 

[tammyp]

So many different values!  Here's yet another 'official' one:

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3769?fg=&man=&lfacet=&format=&count=&max=25&offset=&sort=&qlookup=beef+tongue

RAW - BONE %s in Chicken 

Broiler or Fryer whole, meat and skin and giblets and neck 31% 

back, meat and skin 44% 

breast, meat and skin 20% 

drumstick, meat and skin 33% 

thigh, meat and skin 21% 

leg, meat and skin 27% 

neck, meat and skin 36% 

neck, meat only 75% 

wing, meat and skin 46% 

wing, meat only 68%

 

[ldg]

Well clearly this is where the info in the graphic came from! I wonder why removing the skin changes the percentages so much? Guess I should go read the link first. :lol3: Thanks for finding that!

 

[ldg]

Oh - the link is to the food database for beef tongue.

 

[pinkman]

Just wanted to stop by and let you all know that this is definitely a thread I will be following. 

Once I dissect the chicken feet (whenever that will be), I'll make sure to make an update. 

 

[mschauer]

Laurie asked about how the magnesium (Mg) and phosphorus (P) content of her typical weekly menu would change when using eggshell powder (ESP) or MCHA so I worked up the numbers for her using several calcium/phosphorus ratios:

Using a ratio of 1:1 the MCHA has 21% more Mg and 75% more P:

1:1      ESP        MCHA

Mg      1.5578     1.8845

P        18.3712  32.1622

Using a ratio of 1.3:1 the MCHA has 38% more Mg and 135% more P:

1.3:1      ESP        MCHA

Mg        1.6125     2.2245

P        18.3742    43.2022

Using a ratio of 1.5:1 the MCHA has 61% more Mg and 206% more P:

1.3:1      ESP        MCHA

Mg        1.6485     2.6565

P        18.3762    56.1622

 

[mschauer]

So many different values!  Here's yet another 'official' one:

http://ndb.nal.usda.gov/ndb/foods/show/3769?fg=&man=&lfacet=&format=&count=&max=25&offset=&sort=&qlookup=beef+tongue

Just a note about using the bone content values from the USDA database (from http://www.thecatsite.com/t/260906/getting-the-calcium-content-right#post_3370181):

 

[ldg]

Thank you so much for running those numbers, mschauer!

One thing is clear. Substituting eggshell for bone (or MCHA) will have a major impact on phosphorus, for those feeding raw to CRF kitties.

 

[tammyp]

oops, sorry for that bad link!  That database gets me every time - talk about poor user-friendliness.  I can't even find the correct link, despite mschauer's tips!!

 

[mschauer]

oops, sorry for that bad link!  That database gets me every time - talk about poor user-friendliness.  I can't even find the correct link, despite mschauer's tips!!

Believe it or not it is a lot more user friendly than it used to be! 

At the top of the page you posted a link to click on 'Foods List". It will take you back to the main search page.

Or just click here:

USDA Database

 

[tammyp]

Ahh, thanks...but how do I get to the % bone stuff per 'cut'?

 

[otto]

Since this is a discussion about calcium and bones, I might as well add my question here. How can you figure what percentage the bone is in ...say...a wingette or wing tip?

Jennie had a Cornish hen wingette yesterday that weighed .65 oz. I gave it to her straight off the bird, skin meat and bone intact. How can I know the ratio of that? I did not give her egg shell calcium with her 1.1 oz PMR portion later, thinking the wingette probably covered it.

Queen Eva had the wingtip. Also skin, meat and bone, straight off the bird. Her portion weighed .3 oz.

(then my scale died)

 

[ritz]

My head has turned around several times with this information overload (and the place where the Exorcist [movie] really took place isn't too far from where I work).  I'll bookmark this thread to read in small, 3/16th of a teaspoon, doses. 

 

[ldg]

Since this is a discussion about calcium and bones, I might as well add my question here. How can you figure what percentage the bone is in ...say...a wingette or wing tip?

Jennie had a Cornish hen wingette yesterday that weighed .65 oz. I gave it to her straight off the bird, skin meat and bone intact. How can I know the ratio of that? I did not give her egg shell calcium with her 1.1 oz PMR portion later, thinking the wingette probably covered it.

Queen Eva had the wingtip. Also skin, meat and bone, straight off the bird. Her portion weighed .3 oz.

(then my scale died)

I don't know.

When I feed them the 1/4 quail, I skip eggshell or MCHA at the next two meals. When I feed wing parts, I skip 1 or 2 meals, depending on how much bone they ate. I'm just guessing, and it's based on Spooky getting constipated when I first started feeding fresh bone. She won't eat it now though.

 

[ldg]

...basically, if you want to do the work, you pretty much wave to weigh the part, then remove all the skin and meat, and weigh the bone part. I'm guessing if you did that for one wing, it would be a pretty general guideline as to the percentage going forward, so if you weighed the piece, in the future you could just use the percentage to calculate the amount of bone, and have at reasonable approximation - at least balancing out over time. :dk:

The problem is knowing how much calcium, magnesium, and phosphorus is in that bone. I don't know that we have the profile for chicken wings, so I'm not sure how the above exercise would help, actually.

 

[stealthkitty]

Since this is a discussion about calcium and bones, I might as well add my question here. How can you figure what percentage the bone is in ...say...a wingette or wing tip?

 

Here's how I do it... I read in a couple of different sources that the wingette and wing tip together contain 30% bone. I know that some wings will have more or less bone, but I take that number as an average and go with it. So, when I need to feed my cats 1 ounce of bone, I weigh out 3 ounces of wingette/wing tip for them, since I know that around 30% of that portion will be bone. Another example, I've read that chicken necks are 50% bone. So if you had those on hand and they need 1 ounce of bone, you would serve them 2 ounces of neck. It helps to remember that in the wild a cat's diet would not be highly controlled so there is some "wiggle room" with the numbers. As long as their poo is OK and I know I'm following the PMR guidelines, I don't worry too much about hitting an exact ratio of calcium/phosphorus.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

My head has turned around several times with this information overload (and the place where the Exorcist [movie] really took place isn't too far from where I work).  I'll bookmark this thread to read in small, 3/16th of a teaspoon, doses. 

  Good one!

 

[stealthkitty]

Since this is a discussion about calcium and bones, I might as well add my question here. How can you figure what percentage the bone is in ...say...a wingette or wing tip?

Oops, I see what I wrote above does not address the question you're asking.

My mistake!

 

[ldg]

Quick addition to this thread: altering Dr. Pierson's recipe to use bones cooked in a pressure cooker so they become mushy; pureeing them with the broth, and adding THAT instead of using a grinder. This is an option for people who want to make home-made, but have cats that don't like eating the raw bone-in meals (even ground), or that don't want to invest in a grinder that can grind bone.

Idea courtesy of Frappe.

http://www.thecatsite.com/t/261751/bone-question-dr-piersons-ground-recipe

 

[pinkman]

Chicken feet update! 

So I gave her Lox some feet yesterday but she definitely just wanted to play with more than eat it, just like when I would offer her turkey necks.

 I hate wasting so I decided to make stock out of both of them. I first boiled the feet and the necks for five minutes. Then I washed them in cold water for a good 10 minutes or so. Gave them a good rinsing, scraped out anything red (which I will explain later why.) I put back the feet necks and simmered for a total of five hours- Scooping any sort of scum that rises up often. After three hours or so the "skin" on the feet start to melt almost. I gave a good mashing with a large serving fork. When the five hours were up I filtered out the meat/bones. The end result is a collagen filled, gelatinous, milky-stock. Pure white.

This method is often used in Asian cuisine, you can definitely use beef or pork too (leg bones and knuckles are the best!) The reason I washed anything red out is because I was looking for that opaque, milky color. This is purely for aesthetic reasons. After all, I saved a lot of the stock for myself to make other dishes in the future.

After chilling for a few minutes, the stock became jello. I scooped a small amount of it (still chilled) and offered it to Lox. 

She loved it!

So good news is that I found a cheap (yet very time consuming) flavor enhancer for her ground mixes. However, I am only going to give a tiny bit. I'm assuming bone broth is filled with calcium and other trace minerals and also fat. Not good for kitties prone to constipation or need to lose weight. 

How much calcium is in the stock? Not sure, I gotta crunch some numbers later. Is it possible to use bone-stock as an alternative for bone? I'm not sure about that either. What I do know is that I have created "cat jello shots!"