Let's talk about calcium and bones!

[peaches08]

Thanks for the info!

Another question: has anyone noticed any changes in blood calcium when switching from long term feeding of bone to just eggshell calcium? I'm curious since calcium carbonate isn't well absorbed by humans (hence we advise calcium citrate). I know that can be individual too.

 

[chevs]

Laurie (LDG) recently posted that she uses 1/32 tsp / oz meat and 3/64 tsp / oz organs.

Oh, sorry I didn't see that. So if my math is right that's equal to 0.5 tsp / lb meat? So I guess I should be safe with 1/8 tsp per meal. So why are his poops not as tootsie-roll-like as they were when he was eating bones? Any ideas?

 

[chevs]

If I am reading you correctly, this means Seamus is eating 12 oz per day?????? (Well, I'm basing that on figuring 3 meals per day, 1/4 teas for 4 oz)  That's a whole lot of raw food per day.  Is he a kitten? 

Anyway, since Darko doesn't like powdered anything on his food, I simply mix the powders with the meat juice (or water if not enough juice) and then make sure I coat all his meat strips in the juice.  Then he licks his bowl clean.  Easy Peasy

No, he gets 6.8 oz / day, which is still a lot but it's what he insists on. He is almost 2 but still eats like a kitten. He's always yelling at me about how hungry he is. 

Good idea about dissolving the powder. I will try that.

 

[ldg]

Well, I use the Alnutrin eggshell powder. My advice on how much eggshell powder to use per ounce is based on two things:

1) The recommended amount on the Alnutrin package;
2) Double-checked with information from an independent source: http://holisticat.com/esp.html

where I independently verified the information about how much calcium carbonate is, on average, in eggshells, and how much of that calcium carbonate is elemental calcium.

Of course, how finely ground the eggshell powder is makes a difference.

So I can't imagine why Egghshellant would recommend one teaspoon of eggshell powder per pound of meat when almost every other source and raw recipe on the Internet recommends 1/2 teaspoon per pound of meat.

Does the container indicate how much calcium carbonate or elemental calcium is in that teaspoon? Because that sounds like they'd be recommending a very high Ca ratio. What about contacting the company for details?

FYI, the Alnutrin costs less. I order it from the eshop at http://www.knowwhatyoufeed.com The eggshell is the last item on the page.

But 6.8 ounces a day means a total of a bit less than 1/2 teaspoon total for the day even if you're using the one teaspoon per pound measure (which still makes no sense to me) - how often do you feed them?

 

[ldg]

mschauer - thanks for the great post putting everything into perspective. :nod:

Furmonster Mom, THANK YOU for looking that up and finding those links!

 

[ldg]

For FLUTD cats (not kittens), why is this important "eggshell has less magnesium than bone"?
Ritz has FLUTD and is prone to UTIs (crystals and bacterial).

Magnesium is one of the components of struvite crystals. I'm pretty sure the idea of limiting the minerals that compose the crystals is an outdated way of thinking. This issue may illustrate why that is. Magnesium is an important element to a cats diet. The current thinking on how to prevent the crystals is to adjust the diet to result in more acid urine and increase water intake. A raw diet usually results in urine acidic enough to prevent the crystals. In fact, that is why I switched to a raw diet. My Jeta is prone to struvite crystals. 

It is old school thinking now. But Spooky has FLUTD issues that the raw diet alone has not resolved. When I feed her only the ground meals with bone, I have more trouble managing her urine pH than when I limit her ground meals to the same four a week the other cats get. (And she seems to get constipated very easily, so she skips the bone-in meals, which she won't eat anyway). So perhaps "excess" magnesium contributes to the problem? :dk: I don't know.

I do know mschauer has analyzed the diet I feed - and a lot of scenarios. (!!! Thank you mschauer!!!!) And even when we use only eggshell powder for the source of calcium - with no input for an amount of magnesium in the eggshell powder (correct, mschauer?), the diet more than met AAFCO for required magnesium. (Remember, for much of the stuff, AAFCO just lists minimum needs). For the very first diet analysis run, the magnesium amount was 0.142% of the diet (DMB) vs AAFCO of 0.04%.

So when using just eggshell as the source of calcium, a raw diet with a variety of proteins has the needed magnesium to work with the calcium and phosphorus.

 

[mschauer]

So when using just eggshell as the source of calcium, a raw diet with a variety of proteins has the needed magnesium to work with the calcium and phosphorus.

Well, it will satisfy the AAFCO minimum recommendations as do the vast majority of processed commerical foods. Whether there is sufficient magnesium to satisfy a need that the AAFCO  may be currently unaware of is unknown. Remember part of our efforts in creating a homemade food is to account for unknowns. If we agree that just meeting AAFCO recommendations is sufficient then why are we bothering with making our own?

 

[ldg]

Well, it will satisfy the AAFCO minimum recommendations as do the vast majority of processed commerical foods. Whether there is sufficient magnesium to satisfy a need that the AAFCO  may be currently unaware of is unknown. Remember part of our efforts in creating a homemade food is to account for unknowns. If we agree that just meeting AAFCO recommendations is sufficient then why are we bothering with making our own?

In answer to your last question, as you know I was leery of raw food for a long time prior to deciding to feed it. It was debating with Ducman that led me to research the AAFCO "complete and balanced" claims that even led me to opting to feed raw - then homemade raw - food. But it was learning about what the ingredients in commercial pet food are that gave me the final push. I feed homemade raw food primarily because I want my cats to have fresh food made of the highest quality ingredients I can afford. I don't want them eating the highly processed garbage of garbage of the human food chain.

As to the "whether there is sufficient magnesium to satisfy a need that the AAFCO may be currently unaware of is unknown," is a good - and potentially important - point, of course. What we do know is that the AAFCO guidelines - as they currently stand - do seem to do a good job of sustaining life. Many of the recommendations are based on studies not done in cats, and there will always be unknowns. So from that perspective, a homemade raw diet using eggshell instead of bone as a source of minerals should at least provide the required nutrition to sustain life. Though I believe Carolina's kitties seem to indicate that they're doing better than just surviving.

 

[mschauer]

As are all or our kitties. But the original question that was asked wasn't whether a cat fed a raw diet containing eggshell will do better than just survive. The question was whether there is any benefit to feeding bone over eggshell. The point was made that there are more nutrients in bone than there are in eggshell so they are certainly not completely equivalent. Tying in with my earlier statement that we don't have a complete enough understanding of feline nutrition to know whether those differences matter I'm pointing out that just noting that a diet using eggshell meets AAFCO recommendations for magnesium doesn't answer the question of whether there is a benefit to using bone over eggshell.

 

[ldg]

:nod: Right. And Furmonster mom brought up the issue of magnesium working together with calcium and phosphorus. For those that can't, or for whatever reason don't want to use bone, it seemed appropriate to mention that eggshell contains magnesium, and a raw diet using eggshell, even when the magnesium in eggshell is not included in the analysis, is sufficient from a what-we-do-know about a cat's nutritional needs perspective. ...since the question was raised.

 

[mschauer]

Oh, OK. I missed where anyone was questioning whether a diet using eggshell provides enough magnesium.

Edit - Deleted info about magnesium in eggshell because I used a link to the wrong data.

 

[carolina]

As are all or our kitties. But the original question that was asked wasn't whether a cat fed a raw diet containing eggshell will do better than just survive.

Well.... Let's just say that I am certain Bugsy wouldn't "just survive" on those commercial balanced and complete diets out there for long. And no, he is not "just surviving - my cats are thriving.
I am absolutely positively certain of it, no questions about it.

 

[mschauer]

Well.... Let's just say that I am certain Bugsy wouldn't "just survive" on those commercial balanced and complete diets out there for long. And no, he is not "just surviving - my cats are thriving.
I am absolutely positively certain of it, no questions about it.

 I know that Carolina. Again, all of out kitties are and again that isn't the issue.

 

[carolina]

:lol3:  I know that Carolina. Again, all of out kitties are and again that isn't the issue.

The difference is I feed a diet balanced 100% with eggshells. My point is, wouldn't it be time enough for me to notice an imbalance if the diet wasn't appropriate? At the very least, they wouldn't be thriving..... And they certainly are.
I do not feed bones. I do not feed MHCA. So again, if Magnesium was an issue with a diet balanced with eggshells, shouldn't I be having problems by now, after feeding it exclusively for 1 1/2 yr?

 

[tammyp]

Enjoying this discussion!  

One tiny bit of maybe useful info - magnesium supplements are recommended for humans to counteract the constipating effects of calcium supplements

 

[katluver4life]

I too am enjoying this and learning a lot. Was thinking maybe should be added to the resource guide.

 

[mschauer]

The difference is I feed a diet balanced 100% with eggshells. My point is, wouldn't it be time enough for me to notice an imbalance if the diet wasn't appropriate? At the very least, they wouldn't be thriving..... And they certainly are.
I do not feed bones. I do not feed MHCA. So again, if Magnesium was an issue with a diet balanced with eggshells, shouldn't I be having problems by now, after feeding it exclusively for 1 1/2 yr?

Carolina I have no idea why you keep posting as if I have said that I believe using eggshell will result in some kind of a problem when I haven't.

What I have suggested is that there *MAY BE* a *BENEFIT* to using bone (or the equivalent, MCHA) over eggshell. As a reminder the question that started the thread and to which I have been responding:

Are there any nutritional benefits to using eggshell calcium or MCHA? Please forgive me if this has been answered before.

A benefit doesn't have to be something major. And no, you may not be able to see that benefit (or the lack of the benefit) after just 1 1/2 years of using eggshell. In fact the benefit may not be obvious ever. It isn't always easy to determine cause and effect. If a cat has stronger bones or healthier joints in old age it could be difficult to pin down exactly why.

All I have suggested is that raw feeders consistently hold up a cats natural diet as being optimal. In a cats natural diet calcium and other minerals are derived from bone not eggshell and so using eggshell is a step away from what we consider optimal. As I said before, this particular change from the optimal may OR MAY NOT matter.

Are you prepared to say that you know beyond any doubt that there is no benefit to using bone rather than eggshell? (Other than the dental benefit of feeding whole bone.)

 

[mschauer]

Enjoying this discussion!  

One tiny bit of maybe useful info - magnesium supplements are recommended for humans to counteract the constipating effects of calcium supplements

Now *that* is very interesting. Of course kitties getting bone in their diet get constipated also.

 

[furmonster mom]

Oh, OK. I missed where anyone was questioning whether a diet using eggshell provides enough magnesium.

Edit - Deleted info about magnesium in eggshell because I used a link to the wrong data.

The only reason I brought up Mg (& other trace minerals/nutrients) was because it was something that stuck in the back recesses of my old brain from when I was first researching raw nearly six years ago.  The way I remembered it was that bone was preferable because the triumverate was perfectly balanced in bone, so there would be no need to re-balance anything when it was included in the diet.  Basically, bone is the lazy way to go! 

I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone using eggshell was shortchanging Mg in the diet, or that they would run into any kind of deficiencies because of it.  Rather, I think that it's important to recognize the differences between bone and eggshell, and compensate accordingly if necessary.

I found another article about the mineral composition of eggshells, and conveniently there is a table (pg 3) showing the mg/g of each element:

Ca  387 - 401

Mg  3.5 - 4.5

P    .99 - 1.9

Not sure how it compares to bone exactly... maybe someone could lay them in a table side by side?

Unfortunately, I'm running on no sleep at the moment and it's finally catching up to me. 

 

[mschauer]

Originally Posted by Furmonster Mom  


I certainly didn't mean to imply that anyone using eggshell was shortchanging Mg in the diet, or that they would run into any kind of deficiencies because of it.  Rather, I think that it's important to recognize the differences between bone and eggshell, and compensate accordingly if necessary.

And that is how I took it.

I found another article  about the mineral composition of eggshells, and conveniently there is a table (pg 3) showing the mg/g of each element:

Ca  387 - 401

Mg  3.5 - 4.5

P    .99 - 1.9

Not sure how it compares to bone exactly... maybe someone could lay them in a table side by side?

Unfortunately, I'm running on no sleep at the moment and it's finally catching up to me.  

Yeah, that is the paper where I got the nutritional profile of eggshell powder that I use in my analysis.

You should compare it with the MCHA values I posted earlier. It really isn't possible to compare against bone directly because the mineral composition of bone depends too much on which bone. Load bearing bones are denser than non load bearing bones for example. The nutrient profile of MCHA gives a good average profile since it is made from a number of different bones.

The nutrient profiles of eggshell and MCHA actually compare pretty closely except that MCHA (and so bone) has much more phosphorus. That is important because it means we use a lot more MCHA than we use of eggshell in order to achieve the calcium/phosphorus we want. The end result is that when bone or MCHA is used the diet ends up with a much higher concentration of minerals than when eggshell is used. And the assumption would be that a cats natural diet would also have the higher mineral concentration.

Before anybody gets upset, I absolutely positively AM NOT suggesting that this means a problem could result from using eggshell. In fact it could well be that there is some advantage to a lower mineral concentration even if it represents a deviation from what is found in a cats natural diet. But, of course, there also could be an advantage to the higher concentration also.