Kittens Coming Soon

[edeezz]

I've just found and joined this forum, pardon me if it's in the wrong section.

Just want to know your input on this, I will be adopting 2 kittens from my girlfriend's mother this friday(hopefully), they're siblings and almost if not already 2 months old.

Already bought a scratcher, ceramic bowls, a bed, placemats, ceramic water fountain(god they're expensive), toys, mice toys, nail trimmer, ONE covered litter box, natural clay clumping litter, dry kibble, wet food, cats on thrones valerian cushion??, and that's pretty much it.

Important:
Is there anything missing?
Is the dry food I bought a bad choice? and the canned food?
Litter? Clumping a risky choice? Safe? Bad, low quality brand?

Also very important:
Should I get them to the vet the next day? The kittens come from a house with like 15 cats, not sure how bad that environment is for the kittens since I have no clue if those 15 cats were brought to the vet. Because if I don't bring them to the vet the next day(this saturday) they will have to wait until next saturday.

How do I train them to use the litter?

Litter: Greenwoods Natural Clay Clumping Cat Litter with Zeolite
Dry: Applaws Cat Food for Kittens
Canned: Animonda Carny Kitten


P.S Don't judge, never had a cat, spent more than 20 hours this and the last week just reading and searching about cat stuff but I would still like some critics on my choices.

P.S 2 - Here's a pic of one of the kittens, it's the yellow one from the left! ))

 

[Kieka]

Welcome!

It sounds like you are really doing your research and doing the best you can for those kittens. They are very lucky to have such a concerned human in their lives. Getting two at once is excellent because it gives them a play mate and they should help teach each other.

Clumping litter - It's generally not recommended for little kittens as they can try to eat it. Not everyone will have that experience but it's better to be safe than sorry. Good news, the litter you've already bought will work fine when they get just a smidgen older. I'd buy a non-clumping litter and once you've gone through it switch to the clumping. That should be enough time for them to get past the "what's this? Can I eat it?" phase.

Food - That subject is so hotly debated. I see nothing wrong with a dry and wet combo. But you have others who are hardcore wet only. As long as your cats are healthy there really isn't a right answer. Some cats do need a wet only diet and some don't. Your choices look pretty good too. Is there better? Probably. I am always on the hunt for the perfect food. But the food you've chosen doesn't have any major issues. Just remember that growing kittens usually need a lot of food. Until they are full grown I wouldn't try to limit there food access.

Vet - I like a vet visit as soon as possible. At the very least you can take care of deworming and know that your little one doesn't have anyblazing red health flags. Usually that first appointment will be check over, get base line, maybe shots and set up there's appointments. Depending on your vet, they might even have a kitten package where you pay once for all the standard kitten tests, vaccines and appointments.

 

[edeezz]

Indeed, I cannot be with them for the most part of the day for week days so I that's why I went with 2, and they're siblings they get along.

Yes I'm afraid I got the wrong litter for the young ones, mind I ask if silica gel/crystal litter is optimal? I've got a bag of those and I wonder. Because right now either that or gotta go to the supermarket.

And thanks!

 

[Kieka]

I think I would stay away from the silica too for a little bit just until you see what type of kittens you have on your hands. I've had the kittens who will test everything with their mouths so non-clumping was a must until they finished teething. I've had the ones who couldn't care less about trying to eat everything and I switched to clumping as soon as I used up the non-clumping. Silica is not the best thing to be ingested by little ones and I would hate to have them decide to test it out as food or a toy.

I know you've already been shopping but a non-clumping would be best for at least a little while. You can switch to the silica or clumping litter as soon as you are sure they aren't trying to eat it. So no waste in that sense and you won't have to buy more for that much longer.

Here is one of our articles on kittens and litterboxes How To Train Kittens To Use The Litter Box and one on kitten proofing you might find interesting, Kitten Proofing Your Home: 13 Practical Tips

 

[edeezz]

I know you've already been shopping but a non-clumping would be best for at least a little while. You can switch to the silica or clumping litter as soon as you are sure they aren't trying to eat it. So no waste in that sense and you won't have to buy more for that much longer.

Here is one of our articles on kittens and litterboxes How To Train Kittens To Use The Litter Box and one on kitten proofing you might find interesting, Kitten Proofing Your Home: 13 Practical Tips

Very well, I will take a look at the articles and gotta go looking for non-clumping in supermarkets, better safe than sorry.

 

[Kieka]

Very well, I will take a look at the articles and gotta go looking for non-clumping in supermarkets, better safe than sorry.

Don't worry about finding a specific brand at this point. I think I've usually gotten the cheapest non-clumping at first to see how the kitten does then switch to a better one if we have one who tastes everything. Your kittens won't notice the difference between brands right away and the store brand usually isn't bad. I don't like scented ones personally but that's a personal preference.

It sounds like you will make an amazing kitty parent. I really meant it, those kittens are lucky to have landed in your home.

Don't forget to visit our new members forum to introduce yourself, New Cats on the Block. We love photos of cats/kittens around here so please share your little ones once they arrive. We even have a special place for photos, Fur Pictures and Videos Only!

 

[edeezz]

Don't worry about finding a specific brand at this point. I think I've usually gotten the cheapest non-clumping at first to see how the kitten does then switch to a better one if we have one who tastes everything. Your kittens won't notice the difference between brands right away and the store brand usually isn't bad. I don't like scented ones personally but that's a personal preference.

I don't mind paying a little extra if it controls better the amazing aroma of poo. I've read somewhere that scented litter is actually bad for kitties health...or something like that.

It sounds like you will make an amazing kitty parent. I really meant it, those kittens are lucky to have landed in your home.

Thank you kind "stranger", finally someone recognizes my pre-effort, I just want to have them for the long run.

Don't forget to visit our new members forum to introduce yourself, New Cats on the Block. We love photos of cats/kittens around here so please share your little ones once they arrive. We even have a special place for photos, Fur Pictures and Videos Only!

I will as soon as I get them!!!

Also, why can't I add links? It doesn't let me reply if there's a link attached.

 

[Kieka]

I avoid scented because I am allergic to most artificial scents. I think you're right that it isn't good for cats either.

Also, why can't I add links? It doesn't let me reply if there's a link attached.

I don't know.... I just copy and past in links without problems.

You can try, Site Help to see if there is something those with more knowledge on how it works can help.

 

[lisahe]

Good for you for taking in those kittens, E edeezz ! They're very cute and it's great that you're taking the time to research how best to feed and care for them. Kittens from households with many cats can be a bit more of a challenge because they're not as used to attention as cats with less competition but the good thing is that you're taking these two in so young. (We adopted two ten-month-old kittens from a many-cat situation and they were very unsociable in their first months. There were obviously problems in that household, though: the cats were very underfed.)

Kieka's already given you lots of good advice so I won't say much other than that for food, it's best to feed kittens lots of protein. And to feed them as much as they'll eat. And often. I'm one of those people who prefers to feed only wet food but, really, with kittens, it's hard enough to feed them often if you work at home like I do! Which means that dry food can almost be a necessity. Keeping in mind my biases, I'll just say that I'd try to feed them as much wet food as possible and make sure the foods you're feeding are high in protein and low in carbs. Of course that's all for the ideal world because cats won't necessarily eat what *you* want them to eat! They really do have minds of their own.

I'll echo Kieka in saying that it's good to have a vet visit as soon as possible, just to get a general sense of their health and get the shots over with. Our vet charges a bulk rate when we bring in our two cats together.

Have fun with those kittens!

P.S. About the problems with links. I think there are certain things that new members can't initially do, though I'm not sure what they are! (I seem to recall that editing posts wasn't allowed when I first joined...)

 

[edeezz]

I don't know.... I just copy and past in links without problems.

You can try, Site Help to see if there is something those with more knowledge on how it works can help.

P.S. About the problems with links. I think there are certain things that new members can't initially do, though I'm not sure what they are! (I seem to recall that editing posts wasn't allowed when I first joined...)

So that's why I spent like 5 minutes looking for the EDIT button haha, I just realized, must be because it's a newbie account.

Good for you for taking in those kittens, E edeezz ! They're very cute and it's great that you're taking the time to research how best to feed and care for them. Kittens from households with many cats can be a bit more of a challenge because they're not as used to attention as cats with less competition but the good thing is that you're taking these two in so young. (We adopted two ten-month-old kittens from a many-cat situation and they were very unsociable in their first months. There were obviously problems in that household, though: the cats were very underfed.)

Kieka's already given you lots of good advice so I won't say much other than that for food, it's best to feed kittens lots of protein. And to feed them as much as they'll eat. And often. I'm one of those people who prefers to feed only wet food but, really, with kittens, it's hard enough to feed them often if you work at home like I do! Which means that dry food can almost be a necessity. Keeping in mind my biases, I'll just say that I'd try to feed them as much wet food as possible and make sure the foods you're feeding are high in protein and low in carbs. Of course that's all for the ideal world because cats won't necessarily eat what *you* want them to eat! They really do have minds of their own.

I'll echo Kieka in saying that it's good to have a vet visit as soon as possible, just to get a general sense of their health and get the shots over with. Our vet charges a bulk rate when we bring in our two cats together.

Have fun with those kittens!

Thank you sir/mam

They're actually very interactive with each other, when I stopped by my girlfriend's mom house they were running and playing a lot...and sleeping a lot plus they're not shy

Will search for a better protein food next time with less "extras", and yes I will feed both dry and wet food, just dry when I'm not home.

I've emailed about 10 vet places and the price for taking two kittens equals to no discount, the prices are about the same for each place, that's ok though.

 

[lisahe]

So that's why I spent like 5 minutes looking for the EDIT button haha, I just realized, must be because it's a newbie account.

Thank you sir/mam

They're actually very interactive with each other, when I stopped by my girlfriend's mom house they were running and playing a lot...and sleeping a lot plus they're not shy

Will search for a better protein food next time with less "extras", and yes I will feed both dry and wet food, just dry when I'm not home.

I've emailed about 10 vet places and the price for taking two kittens equals to no discount, the prices are about the same for each place, that's ok though.

Yes, newbie accounts are a little limited. Initiation doesn't last long, though!

It's great that your kittens aren't shy. Ours were so shy initially that the shelter said they needed a very quiet home, no kids, etc. We fit that description but once the cats settled in (which did take months), there was no stopping them! (Edwina just hopped up in my lap to tell you that they're now very outgoing.)

Yes, the fewer extras the better in food but sometimes we humans can't be too picky since the cats have the final say. (Edwina just looked up to confirm that. Though she'll eat anything. It's her sister that's picky.) Some cats have very definite preferences.

It's too bad there's no bulk discount for two kittens where you live! We do have a very nice vet. She's a cat specialist. If you happen to have one of them where you live, I highly recommend trying that option. She's very good on recognizing symptoms and her advice on cat behavior is fantastic.

And you can just call me Lisa!

 

[edeezz]

It's great that your kittens aren't shy. Ours were so shy initially that the shelter said they needed a very quiet home, no kids, etc. We fit that description but once the cats settled in (which did take months), there was no stopping them! (Edwina just hopped up in my lap to tell you that they're now very outgoing.)

Yes, the fewer extras the better in food but sometimes we humans can't be too picky since the cats have the final say. (Edwina just looked up to confirm that. Though she'll eat anything. It's her sister that's picky.) Some cats have very definite preferences.

It's too bad there's no bulk discount for two kittens where you live! We do have a very nice vet. She's a cat specialist. If you happen to have one of them where you live, I highly recommend trying that option. She's very good on recognizing symptoms and her advice on cat behavior is fantastic.

And you can just call me Lisa!

Alright Lisa.
Months? That must've took you some hard work. How old are they now? One of them has my initials Edwina so that's a plus

Yeah I guess I will wait and see how they adapt with the food first.

Would be a good start with a discount but it's fine anyway. Isn't every vet a cat/dog specialist? I read their staff bio on their website and they seem great people plus they all have cats.

 

[Kieka]

Alright Lisa.
Months? That must've took you some hard work. How old are they now? One of them has my initials Edwina so that's a plus

Yeah I guess I will wait and see how they adapt with the food first.

Would be a good start with a discount but it's fine anyway. Isn't every vet a cat/dog specialist? I read their staff bio on their website and they seem great people plus they all have cats.

Vets are human, so some like dogs more than cat and others like cats more than dogs. I've run into a few of those who don't even like cats but know enough to treat them because they have to. While vet school does cover cats and dogs there are tiny differences biologically that someone who isn't proactive might have missed. You also want a vet who has continued to learn things after leaving school through conferences, further research or just staying current with medical information. Veterinary information about cats is constantly evolving.

I too go to a cat specialist; my vet is a tiny practice and only sees cats. In my area we also have a few vets with separate waiting areas for cats to make the experience less stressful. My primary vet at the practice is a specialist in cat spinal injuries and is constantly improving her knowledge on cats in general. To me a good cat vet is one who will engage in a discussion about diet without resorting to whatever brand the office sells for prescription food and mentions reading recent journal articles about the effect of something like starch in their diets (as an example, but really anything that shows continued engagement with new research in cat medicine).

This website is one of the places that can help you find a cat friendly practice, Cat Friendly Practices® | American Association of Feline Practitioners. It is by no means the only way of course. If you feel comfortable at your vets office and the staff is friendly that can be more important then any certification. I'd just ask the vet if they read new materials about cat health and attend conferences/seminars to keep up with developments in our understanding of cat biology, health and nutrition.

 

[lisahe]

Alright Lisa.
Months? That must've took you some hard work. How old are they now? One of them has my initials Edwina so that's a plus

Yeah I guess I will wait and see how they adapt with the food first.

Would be a good start with a discount but it's fine anyway. Isn't every vet a cat/dog specialist? I read their staff bio on their website and they seem great people plus they all have cats.

Yes, these cats definitely needed some work. The hardest part, though, was that sometimes it was difficult to just stand aside and let them figure things out and get used to us. Slowly. They hid a lot in their first week, which isn't atypical, but they were just shy and skittish for quite some time after. They're now five years and a few months old and have more than made up for that! They're very friendly cats, especially Edwina.

And what Kieka wrote about cat specialists fits my observations, too. We took our previous cat to a general veterinary clinic and vets there were much more dog-oriented. Their bios included a lot more dogs than cats and they really weren't very knowledgeable about feline nutrition so when our cat got overweight, they recommended dry diet food that only made her heavier! (Thank goodness we started buying her cans of Fancy Feast a little later or she would have gained even more weight.) The vet we go to now is like Kieka's and the big thing is that just just really loves and cares about cats. She's even kissed our other cat, Ireland, a few times during appointments: I swear she could recognize what a needy cat Ireland was when she first came to us! Ireland's still a little needy and jealous about attention but she's really come a long way.

Please post a photo of your kittens when you bring them home!

 

[edeezz]

Vets are human, so some like dogs more than cat and others like cats more than dogs. I've run into a few of those who don't even like cats but know enough to treat them because they have to. While vet school does cover cats and dogs there are tiny differences biologically that someone who isn't proactive might have missed. You also want a vet who has continued to learn things after leaving school through conferences, further research or just staying current with medical information. Veterinary information about cats is constantly evolving.

I too go to a cat specialist; my vet is a tiny practice and only sees cats. In my area we also have a few vets with separate waiting areas for cats to make the experience less stressful. My primary vet at the practice is a specialist in cat spinal injuries and is constantly improving her knowledge on cats in general. To me a good cat vet is one who will engage in a discussion about diet without resorting to whatever brand the office sells for prescription food and mentions reading recent journal articles about the effect of something like starch in their diets (as an example, but really anything that shows continued engagement with new research in cat medicine).

This website is one of the places that can help you find a cat friendly practice, Cat Friendly Practices® | American Association of Feline Practitioners. It is by no means the only way of course. If you feel comfortable at your vets office and the staff is friendly that can be more important then any certification. I'd just ask the vet if they read new materials about cat health and attend conferences/seminars to keep up with developments in our understanding of cat biology, health and nutrition.

Yes, these cats definitely needed some work. The hardest part, though, was that sometimes it was difficult to just stand aside and let them figure things out and get used to us. Slowly. They hid a lot in their first week, which isn't atypical, but they were just shy and skittish for quite some time after. They're now five years and a few months old and have more than made up for that! They're very friendly cats, especially Edwina.

And what Kieka wrote about cat specialists fits my observations, too. We took our previous cat to a general veterinary clinic and vets there were much more dog-oriented. Their bios included a lot more dogs than cats and they really weren't very knowledgeable about feline nutrition so when our cat got overweight, they recommended dry diet food that only made her heavier! (Thank goodness we started buying her cans of Fancy Feast a little later or she would have gained even more weight.) The vet we go to now is like Kieka's and the big thing is that just just really loves and cares about cats. She's even kissed our other cat, Ireland, a few times during appointments: I swear she could recognize what a needy cat Ireland was when she first came to us! Ireland's still a little needy and jealous about attention but she's really come a long way.

Please post a photo of your kittens when you bring them home!

Those are definitely some good points, I will take them in consideration when going to the vet. As far as I know I'm in good hands based on their description, they seem to be specialists in feline medicine and very active with events going around.

And I'm glad Ireland got to develop with your efforts!

I will post some photos today if all goes well..and if I have the time. Best of luck for me today, I'm excited.

 

[lisahe]

Those are definitely some good points, I will take them in consideration when going to the vet. As far as I know I'm in good hands based on their description, they seem to be specialists in feline medicine and very active with events going around.

And I'm glad Ireland got to develop with your efforts!

I will post some photos today if all goes well..and if I have the time. Best of luck for me today, I'm excited.

It sounds like you looked into your vet options pretty carefully and feel comfortable -- that's a good start. (And based on your food choices, it looks like you might be in the UK, where it's possible that vet matters are a bit different from in the US. Even here, I think it probably varies quite a bit. Among other things, my suburban-rural area with wide-open spaces might be considerably more dog-centric than lots of other places, like Philadelphia, where I first brought a cat to the vet -- he saw lots of cats.) I'm sure the vet visit will go well.

Yes, Ireland's really done well. I think these cats like that I work at home and my husband telecommutes two or three days a week so is here a lot, too. They enjoy the attention! All that said, Ireland did come and nip at my hair this morning. While I was still trying to sleep. She loves to do that when she's hungry.

And yes, best of luck to you! Have fun with those kittens! (I'm glad you're excited.)

 

[Columbine]

Hi @eedeezz. Welcome to TCS
You've had a ton of great replies already. I'm in the UK, and (from your food and litter choices) it looks like you are too. I will add that specialist cat vets aren't common here at all....in fact, I don't think I've ever come across one in a whole lifetime of cat ownership! I've always used general small animal practices for my guys, and I've always been very happy with the care I've received.

I know clumping litter isn't a great idea with kittens, but it does depend on the age. From twelve/thirteen weeks and up, clumping litter is usually just fine. By that age, they've usually outgrown the exploring-things-by-tasting-them phase, so clumping litter is much less of an issue. I got two thirteen week old kittens last summer, and they did just fine with clumping clay litter I wouldn't go rushing out to buy other litters at this point; rather, I'd find out what litter they're currently using and have a small amount of that to start them off. They should be pretty well litter trained already, but I would suggest you have a few extra boxes around until they're older. My two had 3 boxes in their safe room at the start, plus 3 more in the rest of the house once they started to get to know the rest of their new home. My house is quite big though, and I already had a resident cat. The cheapest option is to buy a few cheap open trays, which will be easy to store as they get older and no longer need as many boxes around. I would be thinking in terms of at least two long term though, so they both have somewhere to 'go', even if the urge strikes them both simultaneously

In terms of food, Animonda Carny is great, as is Applaws kibble. Other decent wet brands are Feringa, Animonda vom Feinstein patés, Catessy trays, Thrive Complete, Natures Menu, Smilla, Catz Finefood (once they're onto adult food), Bozita, GranataPet etc. For dry, other good options are Purizon, Thrive Complete, Orijen, Aatu etc (I have a much longer list somewhere, but those are the ones that come to mind!). All but the Natures Menu and Aatu are from Zooplus. Those two are from Pets at Home, other pet stores, and online direct from the makers.

Good luck, and enjoy those kittens. They look adorable!

 

[edeezz]

It sounds like you looked into your vet options pretty carefully and feel comfortable -- that's a good start. (And based on your food choices, it looks like you might be in the UK, where it's possible that vet matters are a bit different from in the US. Even here, I think it probably varies quite a bit. Among other things, my suburban-rural area with wide-open spaces might be considerably more dog-centric than lots of other places, like Philadelphia, where I first brought a cat to the vet -- he saw lots of cats.) I'm sure the vet visit will go well.

Yes, Ireland's really done well. I think these cats like that I work at home and my husband telecommutes two or three days a week so is here a lot, too. They enjoy the attention! All that said, Ireland did come and nip at my hair this morning. While I was still trying to sleep. She loves to do that when she's hungry.

And yes, best of luck to you! Have fun with those kittens! (I'm glad you're excited.)

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm not and never was from UK haha. We're neighbours?..kind of? Portugal.

It depends on what vet specialist I actually get as well, as there are 3-4 vets available from each place.

Do you have any photos of Ireland and Edwin?

Hi @eedeezz. Welcome to TCS
You've had a ton of great replies already. I'm in the UK, and (from your food and litter choices) it looks like you are too. I will add that specialist cat vets aren't common here at all....in fact, I don't think I've ever come across one in a whole lifetime of cat ownership! I've always used general small animal practices for my guys, and I've always been very happy with the care I've received.

I know clumping litter isn't a great idea with kittens, but it does depend on the age. From twelve/thirteen weeks and up, clumping litter is usually just fine. By that age, they've usually outgrown the exploring-things-by-tasting-them phase, so clumping litter is much less of an issue. I got two thirteen week old kittens last summer, and they did just fine with clumping clay litter I wouldn't go rushing out to buy other litters at this point; rather, I'd find out what litter they're currently using and have a small amount of that to start them off. They should be pretty well litter trained already, but I would suggest you have a few extra boxes around until they're older. My two had 3 boxes in their safe room at the start, plus 3 more in the rest of the house once they started to get to know the rest of their new home. My house is quite big though, and I already had a resident cat. The cheapest option is to buy a few cheap open trays, which will be easy to store as they get older and no longer need as many boxes around. I would be thinking in terms of at least two long term though, so they both have somewhere to 'go', even if the urge strikes them both simultaneously

In terms of food, Animonda Carny is great, as is Applaws kibble. Other decent wet brands are Feringa, Animonda vom Feinstein patés, Catessy trays, Thrive Complete, Natures Menu, Smilla, Catz Finefood (once they're onto adult food), Bozita, GranataPet etc. For dry, other good options are Purizon, Thrive Complete, Orijen, Aatu etc (I have a much longer list somewhere, but those are the ones that come to mind!). All but the Natures Menu and Aatu are from Zooplus. Those two are from Pets at Home, other pet stores, and online direct from the makers.

Good luck, and enjoy those kittens. They look adorable!

Indeed this seems like a helpful and friendly community, there are a lot of dead pet forums.

No I'm actually from Portugal, it's just there are a lot of pet food stores.

Thought they were pretty common(cat vet specialists), especially overseas.

As for the litter, I've just bought Cat's Best Original Cat Litter as I didn't found wood pellets version, it's non clumping plus and the pieces are at least bigger than the ones I originally ordered. I have just one closed litter box for the moment, there isn't much room for litter at my house, I guess I could switch to two smaller ones, let's just see how this one goes first.

I've ordered the food from Zooplus, but I've checked and every zooplus has different products/stock available. I will take a look at yours lists, mostly kitten food for now. I really don't want to buy some cheap stuff, and I want to stay away from Purina and Royal Canin. It's weird because most portuguese people from as far as forums go they suggest and recommend royal canin a lot, and purina stuff, some go for taste of the wild.

Thanks!

 

[lisahe]

I'm sorry to disappoint you but I'm not and never was from UK haha. We're neighbours?..kind of? Portugal.

It depends on what vet specialist I actually get as well, as there are 3-4 vets available from each place.

Do you have any photos of Ireland and Edwin?

Oh, Portugal, that's not a disappointment at all! Though, unfortunately, I've never been...

And yes, that's right, most vet clinics have multiple vets on duty. I forgot about that since our regular vet is usually the one on duty, though she does take occasional days off.

And here's a favorite photo of Edwina and Ireland (left to right). They're not always quite this friendly but they do get along pretty well!

Good luck picking up your kittens today! I hope they settle in nicely.

P.S. They're very serious cats. I also have shots of them at work.

 

[edeezz]

Oh, Portugal, that's not a disappointment at all! Though, unfortunately, I've never been...

And yes, that's right, most vet clinics have multiple vets on duty. I forgot about that since our regular vet is usually the one on duty, though she does take occasional days off.

And here's a favorite photo of Edwina and Ireland (left to right). They're not always quite this friendly but they do get along pretty well!

Good luck picking up your kittens today! I hope they settle in nicely.

P.S. They're very serious cats. I also have shots of them at work.

You should, if you ever do decide to go on vacation, especially Algarve.

Gosh Ireland looks bossy and judgemental(send my respect), Edwina looks puffy , very gorgeous
You bring them to work?