Again, I want to restate, Khaleesi is too cute!!!
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Is she a wedge head?
- Thread starter jezahb
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That's true about pointed cats, I fostered/bottlefed a feral litter that was born under someone's garage and one of the kittens was a lynx point. The mother was definitely not a purebred Siamese, probably not even a recent mix as none of the kittens resembled a Siamese (or other breeds that typically have the pointed coloration). The other two kittens in the litter were tabbies (one brown tabby, one red.)
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Pointed is a recessive gene - a pointed cat has inherited it from both parents, but both those parents could be black! And a seal-point is a genetically black cat. The pointed pattern is a form of partial albinoism. The colour only develops on the cooler areas, and the eyes stay blue. Some cats get quite a lot of colour as they age - I've seen a very dark Siamese seal-point stud - but they all start out white!
I can believe the mother was pointed, but I doubt very much she was a genuine Siamese as in a registered pedigree. Reading here has lead me to believe that in some areas the pointed gene is quite common in non-pedigree cat populations. It only takes one entire Siamese (or other pointed breed) male to go making hay for a few months (or even weeks) and there will be pointed kittens popping up forever more in the area.
Since there are also a couple of blue kittens (the pukka name for grey) then both parents also carried the Dilute gene. It affects how the colour is laid down in the hair shaft and the colour looks paler - black becomes blue, chocolate becomes lilac, cinamon becomes fawn. You just about never see anything except black & blue in moggies.
Do I think your kitten has any pedigree blood? In my view if she does it's way back. Do I think she's cute and adorable? YES YES YES!
And RedVelvetOne's cat is gorgeous as well, though obviously he has left the cuteness of kittenhod behind.
Err... Wanna hear about the white spotting gene?
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No thanks, don't want any lockets hereErr... Wanna hear about the white spotting gene?
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My experience with color point kittens appearing in litters non of the moms were color point themselves. I had 2 in one litter from a black and white mom, the rest of the kittens were black and white and there was a grey one. The other black and white tuxedo mom had 1 color point and the others were black and white. The other mom is Penelope and Delilah's mom who was turned into the shelter as a "Maine Coon mix", but I cant be sure there is even any MC in her, but she is a very pretty long haired tabby. But her kittens were 3 torties and 1 lynx point. Sadly I lost all but Penelope and Delilah from that litter. Both litters had a mix of both long and short hair as well. I am sure the odds that a Siamese was able to get 3 different moms pregnant is unlikely.
Khaleesi is very cute! My Delilah has the same kinda short muzzle too!
Khaleesi is very cute! My Delilah has the same kinda short muzzle too!
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- #67
I was reasonably convinced the mom is a siamese, and call it a gut feeling but I still feel like she was. I just think she was the very old type that had points but besides that look like a normal cat structure wise. I mean the woman I got her from, who was fostering and bottlefeeding the babies after the original owner couldn't, specifically said "There mom and grandmom were siamese". She did say the dad was Maine Coon, however talking to her since she revealed she never saw the dad. However she did see the 'mom' who was a seal point. Granted she could have just been another house cat since she didn't interact with the kittens seeing as the whole reason Khaleesi was bottlefed was because the mom cat dried up. I just think its a bit of a stretch, the woman saw a siamese, the owner says the mom was that siamese and two of the kittens are pointed. Thats why I think I am still rather sure she is half meezer, just the old style. The dad is my only question since Khaleesi has NO MC traits that I can see.
I get the feeling mum was simply a pointed cat. There seem to be quite a few pop up in moggie litters in the US, my feeling is those are her origins. She is a lovely cute kitten, but speaking as a slave to three Orientals and a Siamese, there is nothing about her (at least in the photos) that says 'Siamese cross'.
There are also other breeds of pointed cats! The snowshoe has just arrived in the UK, a very normal looking cat except it's pointed. There are also Birmans, Ragdolls, Himalayans, pointed BSH, Exotics, Cornish & Devon Rex, Sphyinx, maybe Selkirk Rex, maybe La Perm, think Snow Bengals are pointed, and probably more I don't know...
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- #69
I think it may be the photo's don't show it, because I just returned from her 2nd vet visit and the vet there remarked that she was very 'tall' for a 9 week old and asked if she was a Siamese X. I told her about everything and her feeling, as someone who has seen Siamese kittens, is that while Khaleesi doesn't have the muzzle she has the wide set ears and the long thin legs of the Siamese kittens she had seen. However she also agrees she is going to go all black in time, but her eyes were too mixed to tell the color. I trust your experience, so I am guessing I just haven't gotten a picture on my crappy iphone cam that relays her looks accurately. Part of it may be feel too, when you hold or pick up Khaleesi she has a very lithe and sleek feel to her that I personally had ever felt before on Siamese I met at shows. I know this may be a case of me wanting her to be Siamese X and imagining things or creating reasons to think so, but its also now the vet and techs who also think she looks that way too. I am not trying to be annoying by insisting "No really, she is Siamese" lol, but man she has some seriously long legs!
Do take what the vet and so on say with a big pinch of salt - most of them know zilch about pedigree breeds!
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Very true, I was telling OS earlier in the week as I dropped off an "Exotic" and payed the bill for an "Oriental"
I have Ocicats
LOL a vet told me "Your Siamese look different from a lot of the Siamese we get in here!" And the Siamese I currently have are old style. I asked in what way different, wondering if she meant most the others were the modern type. But no, it sounds like she is just calling all pointed shorthair cats "Siamese".
The Wichienmaat cats of Siam /Thailand ( that the British named "Siamese" ) and the small number of genuine old style Siamese in other parts of the world of course were/are not nearly so extreme as most of the breed would later become in the West via selective breeding, BUT they didn't / don't usually look just like a typical Western domestic cat with pointed pattern. They have a body type that in the cat fancy is called "foreign" ( as opposed to the even more elongated, finer boned "oriental type") They are usually longer bodied and longer legged than domestic cats of Western origin. & they do tend to have a more distinct muzzle -- it's a wedge but with rounded cheeks ( the early Siamese were described as "marten faced" by fanciers in the UK and also described as being very different in shape from the local cats they were used to seeing. ) and a long flat forehead. Of course there is a range of type and you get some that have a rounder head or less elongated body type, but that's not the norm.
They also have short single coats that lie flat -- not AS short or "painted on" as the "modern" type but not fluffy or plush (since they don't have an undercoat) . That is often a significant difference between a Siamese and a pointed moggy of mostly Western origin. and usually the coats feel very soft and silky. ( Of course, diet and health plays a role in that too.)
BTW many of the older type Siamese do not have ears as wide set as the modern type
It's not impossible K's mom was Siamese of the older type , or had a parent or grandparent who was. but with the way people think every pointed shorthair is Siamese , and some people sell them as "Siamese" , it could be something like that
The pointed pattern did come to the West via the Siamese but the pointed allele has been spread through the random-bred cat population by Siamese cats & their descendents including other breeds who originally got the pattern from Siamese. Result is in the US there are indeed many pointed random-bred cats. Probably a lot of the mixing happened in the mid 20th century when Siamese were very popular and at that time spay/neuter was less common, early spay/ neuter was almost unheard of , and more people in the US then let even their pedigreed pet cats out to roam around and mate with the moggy down the street. So there are many pointed random-bred cats whose most recent Siamese ancestor was probably around 1960! Which would mean they're probably under 0.01% Siamese
On the other hand there are also mixes around with a recent Siamese ancestor. Not all breeders alter pet kittens before placement and not all owners follow through on contracts and some slip through the cracks.. plus there are less responsible breeders who just don't bother & don't care .
Along with having had pedigreed Siamese, I have had several adopted pointed cats of uncertain ancestry.. Some no doubt had very little Siamese. A couple may have had a recent Siamese ( or closely related) ancestor ( For example a cat with VERY long body & legs, Siamesey voice, and a definite chocolate point , with semi-longhair coat but a cottony undercoat that matted something awful. Since choc. pt is not common in random bred .cats I think he probably came from one of the US breeders selling crosses as fake "Traditional Balinese")
. And one, an 11 yr old cat who had been left at a shelter by the people who had him since he was a kitten, because their kid went off to university and they didn't want to bother with a pet, I think really may have been a Siamese.
It is just gonna be a guess anyway. but you can guess better as she grows up. Kittens go through a lot of shape morphing. LOL .
But re Miss Khaleesi , whatEVER she is, one thing for certain is she is extremely cute.
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Lovely bit of history and background, thanks.
The first cross results in 1/2 Siamese kittens (1 / 2^1), the second 1/4 (1 / 2^2) and so on. If the most recent Siamese was in 1950, and we assume 1 generation per year that's 62 years.
So what is 2 ^ 62? Google says 2^62 = 4.61168602 × 1018. The reciprocal of that is minuscule - it's something like a decimal point, 18 zeros and a 4. So at one generation per year from 1950 there is almost no Siamese left - just the colourpoint pattern with it's blue eyes. Of course there might have been a Siamese top-up somewhere along the way, but hopefully you see why calling any shorthair cat with colourpoint pattern 'Siamese' may well be rather optimistic.
The first cross results in 1/2 Siamese kittens (1 / 2^1), the second 1/4 (1 / 2^2) and so on. If the most recent Siamese was in 1950, and we assume 1 generation per year that's 62 years.
So what is 2 ^ 62? Google says 2^62 = 4.61168602 × 1018. The reciprocal of that is minuscule - it's something like a decimal point, 18 zeros and a 4. So at one generation per year from 1950 there is almost no Siamese left - just the colourpoint pattern with it's blue eyes. Of course there might have been a Siamese top-up somewhere along the way, but hopefully you see why calling any shorthair cat with colourpoint pattern 'Siamese' may well be rather optimistic.
Thanks for doing the math, OS! I knew it would be something very tiny.... guess I could have added a lot more zeros!
Here is the pointed feral DSH kitten I rescued...
As a baby:
These were her littermates:
Here she is an adult:
As a baby:
These were her littermates:
Here she is an adult:
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- Thread Starter Thread Starter
- #76
Wow!
That is A LOT of information! I still don't think I get like half of it! It is appreciated though, and is amazing you guys know so much about this. I include a picture of our old cat Tasha, who is the Siamese I think of when I say "old style" or "Applehead". She has a shorter coat and had a more angular face than our mixes but overall looked like a pointed cat to me. However she had the Siamese meow and personality (literally she let me dress her in doll clothes when I was 11). She is elderly in this picture and her whiskerpads are grey.
However, looking around and finding pictures I found this picture of several 'old fashioned' Siamese kittens and they look identical to what I am seeing from Khaleesi at this age as far as body and ears. Even down to the odd way the fur changes direction on the chest. She is a bit fuzzier though, her fur is not nearly as sleek but I think thats maybe just kitten fluff? I know her pictures don't show it well, but it is so hard to take a picture of a black cat that shows any kind of underlying structure when coupled with a cell phone cam, shady apt and rambunctious kitten. I just post it more to explain that I am not talking about the very oriental looking Siamese with thin legs and tubular body, but a middle ground between Tasha and that style.
When compared to the pictures of typical 9 week old kittens Leesi is more...well, narrow. Her chest is narrow, her legs more thin (not overall super thin but thinner than say Nekochan's adorable kittens legs) and her hips narrower. This is not changing, its been about a week since I started to notice her thinning out shape wise and while she has gained size and weight, she is getting noticeably narrower. She doesn't appear emaciated and the vet says she is healthy, so the changes appear more structural. However...her face, not Siamese in the LEAST! LOL! So cute but man, very very short almost dollface persian muzzle which is throwing me for a loop! No idea where she got that, but must have been her dad!
That is A LOT of information! I still don't think I get like half of it! It is appreciated though, and is amazing you guys know so much about this. I include a picture of our old cat Tasha, who is the Siamese I think of when I say "old style" or "Applehead". She has a shorter coat and had a more angular face than our mixes but overall looked like a pointed cat to me. However she had the Siamese meow and personality (literally she let me dress her in doll clothes when I was 11). She is elderly in this picture and her whiskerpads are grey.
However, looking around and finding pictures I found this picture of several 'old fashioned' Siamese kittens and they look identical to what I am seeing from Khaleesi at this age as far as body and ears. Even down to the odd way the fur changes direction on the chest. She is a bit fuzzier though, her fur is not nearly as sleek but I think thats maybe just kitten fluff? I know her pictures don't show it well, but it is so hard to take a picture of a black cat that shows any kind of underlying structure when coupled with a cell phone cam, shady apt and rambunctious kitten. I just post it more to explain that I am not talking about the very oriental looking Siamese with thin legs and tubular body, but a middle ground between Tasha and that style.
When compared to the pictures of typical 9 week old kittens Leesi is more...well, narrow. Her chest is narrow, her legs more thin (not overall super thin but thinner than say Nekochan's adorable kittens legs) and her hips narrower. This is not changing, its been about a week since I started to notice her thinning out shape wise and while she has gained size and weight, she is getting noticeably narrower. She doesn't appear emaciated and the vet says she is healthy, so the changes appear more structural. However...her face, not Siamese in the LEAST! LOL! So cute but man, very very short almost dollface persian muzzle which is throwing me for a loop! No idea where she got that, but must have been her dad!
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Thanks for sharing the pic of your dear old Tasha I can't totally see her that well to see things like body type, but it's a sweet photo of two good friends. (Is that you holding her?) When you say she looked like a regular cat -- the difference is not extreme, although I guess some of the first Siamese were apparently a noticeable contrast to the people who were used to seeing cats more along the lines of the British Shorthair ( though that breed also has become more exaggerated than the original cats , but in the opposite direction)Wow!
That is A LOT of information! I still don't think I get like half of it! It is appreciated though, and is amazing you guys know so much about this. I include a picture of our old cat Tasha, who is the Siamese I think of when I say "old style" or "Applehead". She has a shorter coat and had a more angular face than our mixes but overall looked like a pointed cat to me. However she had the Siamese meow and personality (literally she let me dress her in doll clothes when I was 11). She is elderly in this picture and her whiskerpads are grey.
........................
However, looking around and finding pictures I found this picture of several 'old fashioned' Siamese kittens and they look identical to what I am seeing from Khaleesi at this age as far as body and ears. Even down to the odd way the fur changes direction on the chest. She is a bit fuzzier though, her fur is not nearly as sleek but I think thats maybe just kitten fluff? I know her pictures don't show it well, but it is so hard to take a picture of a black cat that shows any kind of underlying structure when coupled with a cell phone cam, shady apt and rambunctious kitten. I just post it more to explain that I am not talking about the very oriental looking Siamese with thin legs and tubular body, but a middle ground between Tasha and that style.
....
And remember, as I said there was / is some range of type.
. On top of that there has been some mixing even from the start and it used to be easier to get cats with very short or no pedigrees registered as foundation Siamese. it's possible she had a little bit of Western moggy in her along with the meezer. ( actually just about all of them would have. I doubt there's any such thing as 100% "pure" in any of the old breeds. )
Did she have the same thing you mentioned about the hair changing direction on the chest?
It is interesting you are seeing that in Khaleesi . That is usual in Siamese because of the short coat and absence of undercoat. I always say they look like they are sewed together with seams.
That group of kittens in the photo you posted definitely looks like some typical old style Siamese / TICA Thai kittens BTW when comparing, those kittens look older to me than 9 wks.
When you say she looks more narrow / finer than the pictures of typical 9 wk old kittens.... do you mean other pictures of "moggy" kittens? ( " domestic" / unknown ancestry.) ?
The short face -- well, one thing you do know for sure is she is not a purebred Even if the mom IS Siamese, when you combine that with something else you can get some features of either. What I'm wondering though is if the mom's sire is known, either. You said the lady said the mom and grandmother were Siamese. I wonder if Granddad is another unknown carrying the pointed gene. ( Oh geez I hope granddad isn't dad too.) It may just be she is using " Siamese" to mean "pointed" .
It could be Grandma is Siamese, mom is 1/2 Siamese and K. is 1/4. .... or it could be that infinitesimal % that Oriental Slave worked out for a cat whose most recent Siamese ancestors were in 1950. Like I said there are both sorts around.
Here are some other old style Siamese kittens. They are obviously terrible criminals and are locked up in prison. LOL really they're at a show, socializing. About to go to new homes.
@Nekochan, Love the little feral lynx point and Mc tabby babies. That red tabby just glows, the color is so bright. Do you still have the lynx point?
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- #78
That is me and my sisters best friend Athena, AKA Cat Angel...she is actually who told me about this site years ago. I don't think she is on much anymore since she became a human mom now! I was only 14 when Tasha died but she is the first cat I loved, we have videos of me toting her around in a toddlers grasp when I was 3 or 4. That cat was so tolerant it is still amazing to me to this day! She is the reason I fell head over heels for Siamese cats at a young age, though my parents current boy Meezer Moki is not so nice at all! He is very cranky Siamese, and I learned Tasha was a bit of an exception to that rule. This is a picture of Moki who is from the same breeder as Tasha was, so same style except he is Snowshoe...so 1/2 Siamese
I think the kittens in that picture were 10 1/2 weeks, so a little more than a week older than Khaleesi is now which may explain why though she has the funny chest seam thing it is also covered in a layer of longer fuzzy hairs that stick out all directions. She has not grown out of her kitten coat like those meezer babies have. I was referring to mixed breed kittens when I said "typical" kittens, kinda like Nekochans kitten pictures, mixed breed kittens seem to have thicker legs and denser looking bodies than Khaleesi does.
I have no idea about Khaleesi's grandpa as he was never mentioned, but I am hoping he is not also dad! So he very well could have been some other mix or another breed as Leesi's original owner seemed to like purebreds, again through talking to the foster the woman actually had two other older looking Persians who were fixed in her condo. So who knows. However, Leesi's face is unbelievably cute so I don't mind!
I think the kittens in that picture were 10 1/2 weeks, so a little more than a week older than Khaleesi is now which may explain why though she has the funny chest seam thing it is also covered in a layer of longer fuzzy hairs that stick out all directions. She has not grown out of her kitten coat like those meezer babies have. I was referring to mixed breed kittens when I said "typical" kittens, kinda like Nekochans kitten pictures, mixed breed kittens seem to have thicker legs and denser looking bodies than Khaleesi does.
I have no idea about Khaleesi's grandpa as he was never mentioned, but I am hoping he is not also dad! So he very well could have been some other mix or another breed as Leesi's original owner seemed to like purebreds, again through talking to the foster the woman actually had two other older looking Persians who were fixed in her condo. So who knows. However, Leesi's face is unbelievably cute so I don't mind!
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Leesi is just an outrageously cute kitten. Every picture. I do love those ears.
Most the Siamese I have known were not really what I'd call cranky. Opinionated, yes but not really bad tempered. And just so so attached to people.
A lot of people have this idea that Siamese in general are "mean". Maybe those peopled are still influenced by childhood nightmares ( or their elders' childhood nightmares) of the Disney villains Si & Am. Or maybe they met some who were poorly socialized or mistreated, or bought as a pet and then ignored & bored & lonely. Or maybe they just met some pointed cats who weren't even Siamese.
Oh you were mentioning voice earlier in talking about Tasha. If Leesi gets a typical meezer voice that would be significant.
Most the Siamese I have known were not really what I'd call cranky. Opinionated, yes but not really bad tempered. And just so so attached to people.
A lot of people have this idea that Siamese in general are "mean". Maybe those peopled are still influenced by childhood nightmares ( or their elders' childhood nightmares) of the Disney villains Si & Am. Or maybe they met some who were poorly socialized or mistreated, or bought as a pet and then ignored & bored & lonely. Or maybe they just met some pointed cats who weren't even Siamese.
Oh you were mentioning voice earlier in talking about Tasha. If Leesi gets a typical meezer voice that would be significant.
I've only really known one Siamese personally, and she actually was quite mean/cranky. She was my aunt's cat. She would hiss at us all the time, and would try to scratch if we got too close to her. We used to petsit for my aunt and even then, when we were the ones feeding her, she was still grumpy. I guess my aunt had other Siamese before also but that was before my time.
No, unfortunately I wasn't able to keep any of the kittens because the cat I owned at the time HATED other cats. I wanted to keep Nala (the lynx point) though... She was adopted by a friend/neighbor of mine, which is why I have photos of her as an adult...somewhere I also have cute photos of her when she was a "teenager", before her points darkened up so much like in the adult pic... That was a long time ago though when I rescued the kittens, my friend moved away since then and I haven't talked to them in quite a while now, and Nala would be an "old lady" now.
