Introducing Betty White

[daftcat75]

So I tuned into the camera to find a clean plate and a grooming Betty. I wonder if she won’t just make up the difference in feeding with grooming and thus defeating the fast.

 

[tarasgirl06]

So I tuned into the camera to find a clean plate and a grooming Betty. I wonder if she won’t just make up the difference in feeding with grooming and thus defeating the fast.

Yeah. *Betty, it may be somewhat satisfying. But hair isn't digestible. Anyway, it's lovely. Leave some on the cat. Thanks.*

 

[daftcat75]

I had to camp out in the bathroom watching her on the camera because she went into pawing food from the plate mode and I did not want to distract her until she was done. I don’t know how she did it. I didn’t watch the whole thing. But she got through first dinner. Clearly she must have gone back to eating from the plate at some point. First dinner in the books. I’m going to give her a slightly smaller second dinner so she’ll be hungry enough to eat the EYL spiked overnight portion even if she tastes the EYL. That will be a slightly smaller portion too because she doesn’t need the extra calories after I spoiled her at lunch and if the EYL upsets her tummy, there will be less in there to upset.

 

[daftcat75]

How are Betty's stools, and her bowel movements....timing-wise?
What I mean is,...have you noted any patterns...of when she goes poop, how many hours after eating, or generally afternoons, evening, or overnight?
Does she go after being very active?

I think you mentioned that they look good, not too hard, and she does not strain while going?

Since you asked, you get a poopin’ Betty pic.

 

[cat nap]

Since you asked, you get a poopin’ Betty pic.
View attachment 418848

Lol. Thanks.
I am still going to be waiting impatiently for the 'exciting poop' report for Sunday.
And it is exciting, to see a good poop, when a cat has hairballs, and the worry is about 'transit times'...or what is actually in the poop.

(I'm not joking,...this is better than watching the nba playoffs...(which sadly, the toronto raptors are no longer in...lost to philly 76ers)

daftcat75 ...I know you will be transitioning Betty to an all wet food diet, but if you were to leave some dry, in a separate bowl or plate,... and the grams of wet, you planned, overnight,...would Betty choose to eat the dry only?
She wouldn't first go for the wet...and then follow it with dry?

Her preference is always dry first?
Even after introducing the wet a/d and i/d?

I was just wondering about what you had said,...about 'it being better for her system to be a bit hungry'?
Why exactly,?.. and...where did you read that?

(I was always under the impression, that a cat needed to have food,...to not be hungry...so as to not go long periods, with their systems creating more stomach acid, or bile being released...and then not having the food to process with the bile.
(unless I have that wrong and bile is only released...when the food enters the stomach, or even before, when digestion begins in the mouth)

I did read about Vets suggesting cats are not fed, after vomiting, to allow their digestive systems to rest...and I guess re-set,...but does this only pertain to 'cats with digestive problems'...or to all cats?
Would be curious to know, if your Vet had mentioned any of this?...about the 'resting part with no food'...or is it more that you've seen it with Betty, and how food on 'hairball days' just makes her feel worse, and not better.

 

[daftcat75]

Lol. Thanks.
I am still going to be waiting impatiently for the 'exciting poop' report for Sunday.
And it is exciting, to see a good poop, when a cat has hairballs, and the worry is about 'transit times'...or what is actually in the poop.

(I'm not joking,...this is better than watching the nba playoffs...(which sadly, the toronto raptors are no longer in...lost to philly 76ers)

daftcat75 ...I know you will be transitioning Betty to an all wet food diet, but if you were to leave some dry, in a separate bowl or plate,... and the grams of wet, you planned, overnight,...would Betty choose to eat the dry only?
She wouldn't first go for the wet...and then follow it with dry?

Her preference is always dry first?
Even after introducing the wet a/d and i/d?

I was just wondering about what you had said,...about 'it being better for her system to be a bit hungry'?
Why exactly,?.. and...where did you read that?

(I was always under the impression, that a cat needed to have food,...to not be hungry...so as to not go long periods, with their systems creating more stomach acid, or bile being released...and then not having the food to process with the bile.
(unless I have that wrong and bile is only released...when the food enters the stomach, or even before, when digestion begins in the mouth)

I did read about Vets suggesting cats are not fed, after vomiting, to allow their digestive systems to rest...and I guess re-set,...but does this only pertain to 'cats with digestive problems'...or to all cats?
Would be curious to know, if your Vet had mentioned any of this?...about the 'resting part with no food'...or is it more that you've seen it with Betty, and how food on 'hairball days' just makes her feel worse, and not better.

What I know about hairballs I learned from here
How Best to Manage Hairballs

Digestion doesn’t begin in the mouth with cats. They don’t have salivary amylase—the carb digestive enzyme that humans have to start digestion in the mouth. Cats pancreas don’t produce much amylase for the gut either. Cats naturally have no need for carbs. And those that come from eating their prey are already pre digested by their prey as well. So besides being extremely dehydrating, kibble also contains large amounts of poorly digested carbs. Sadly, Betty would eat the dry first every time. It’s a great blessing that she does like wet food. I only offer her dry under exceptional circumstances.

It is the stomach contractions with hunger that help empty the stomach contents into the intestines. Without those contractions, hair can accumulate in the stomach with food gradually emptying around the ball until it can’t get past. The ball is made up of both hair and fat. The hair attracts the fat in food. The fat makes the hair harder to pass and attracts more hair and more fat. Egg yolk lecithin is an emulsifier that makes the fat easier to pass bringing the hair with it. Anything that makes fat move easier is going to speed up the stools too. 🫣

Unfortunately I don’t think EYL is going to work if she’s not going to eat the stuff. I think she took a sniff and said, “I know you poisoned my food. I’d rather go hungry.” I diluted the plate by half with the remaining unaltered food and she still wants fuss more than *that* “food.” She’s napping on my chest with the occasional hungry lip smacking. Either she warms up to the poisoned portion or she fasts. I’m not opening new cans before breakfast.

If she fasts tonight, I guess we’ll shelve the EYL idea for a moment. Hopefully she’ll take the poop pills which may make the EYL less needed.

Allowing her to eat less during the day removing second breakfast as she prefers sleeping anyway may also help. It should reduce the fat accumulation in the ball as well as give her stomach more opportunity to empty.

 

[daftcat75]

Seems like she will eat the EYL portion after all. Maybe I was too quick to dilute it. This will have a very approximate 1/8 capsule in it. 1/4 was what I was going for. 1/2 is supposedly the place to start. So I’m starting very conservatively.

 

[daftcat75]

Poop test that came with the poop pills recommends that I discontinue probiotics for 24 hours before sample. Last probiotic I gave was yesterday morning. So tonight’s poop should be a good testing target. Or if we have to wait a day because EYL gave her the runs, I suppose she’ll live without the dirt for a couple days. It was weird giving her the A/D portion with nothing in it. But part of the reason she gets that portion anyway is that it’s insurance that she’ll always be taking her meds with at least a little bit of food no matter what else she thinks of eating that meal. I also see it as a chaser and a reward for taking her pill. She’s never refused an A/D chaser. So I believe she sees it as a reward as well.

Final score yesterday: 200 calories She did not need those extra lunch calories.

Less fat in the diet means less fat in the hairball. So a leaner mix of A/D to I/D may also help with hairballs. I don’t know percentage of fat. But calories per gram, she was eating a rich 1.13 calories per gram (A/D is 1.17 and I/D is 0.97) and this weekend she’s eating a leaner 1.09 calories per gram and still hitting targets. Indeed last week, she kept exceeding the 190 to 200 calorie target range I have for her. Tomorrow we’ll repeat the weigh-in. And she’ll get a few bonus kibbles.

 

[tarasgirl06]

Poop test that came with the poop pills recommends that I discontinue probiotics for 24 hours before sample. Last probiotic I gave was yesterday morning. So tonight’s poop should be a good testing target. Or if we have to wait a day because EYL gave her the runs, I suppose she’ll live without the dirt for a couple days. It was weird giving her the A/D portion with nothing in it. But part of the reason she gets that portion anyway is that it’s insurance that she’ll always be taking her meds with at least a little bit of food no matter what else she thinks of eating that meal. I also see it as a chaser and a reward for taking her pill. She’s never refused an A/D chaser. So I believe she sees it as a reward as well.

Final score yesterday: 200 calories She did not need those extra lunch calories.

Less fat in the diet means less fat in the hairball. So a leaner mix of A/D to I/D may also help with hairballs. I don’t know percentage of fat. But calories per gram, she was eating a rich 1.13 calories per gram (A/D is 1.17 and I/D is 0.97) and this weekend she’s eating a leaner 1.09 calories per gram and still hitting targets. Indeed last week, she kept exceeding the 190 to 200 calorie target range I have for her. Tomorrow we’ll repeat the weigh-in. And she’ll get a few bonus kibbles.

Looking forward to the weigh-in! She's doing really well, all told.

 

[daftcat75]

Lol. Thanks.
I am still going to be waiting impatiently for the 'exciting poop' report for Sunday.
And it is exciting, to see a good poop, when a cat has hairballs, and the worry is about 'transit times'...or what is actually in the poop.

(I'm not joking,...this is better than watching the nba playoffs...(which sadly, the toronto raptors are no longer in...lost to philly 76ers)

daftcat75 ...I know you will be transitioning Betty to an all wet food diet, but if you were to leave some dry, in a separate bowl or plate,... and the grams of wet, you planned, overnight,...would Betty choose to eat the dry only?
She wouldn't first go for the wet...and then follow it with dry?

Her preference is always dry first?
Even after introducing the wet a/d and i/d?

I was just wondering about what you had said,...about 'it being better for her system to be a bit hungry'?
Why exactly,?.. and...where did you read that?

(I was always under the impression, that a cat needed to have food,...to not be hungry...so as to not go long periods, with their systems creating more stomach acid, or bile being released...and then not having the food to process with the bile.
(unless I have that wrong and bile is only released...when the food enters the stomach, or even before, when digestion begins in the mouth)

I did read about Vets suggesting cats are not fed, after vomiting, to allow their digestive systems to rest...and I guess re-set,...but does this only pertain to 'cats with digestive problems'...or to all cats?
Would be curious to know, if your Vet had mentioned any of this?...about the 'resting part with no food'...or is it more that you've seen it with Betty, and how food on 'hairball days' just makes her feel worse, and not better.

Couple things I missed last night:
Nothing by mouth for six to twelve hours is a common recommendation after vomiting and hairballs. Betty proves this out every time. Once she’s thrown up a hairball, she’s not going to keep anything down for many hours. Any attempts to give her food or medication to settle her stomach just results in another round of vomiting shortly after. I should ask my vet about whether transdermal Cerenia might be effective on an as needed basis since oral Cerenia will come back up.

Bile is manufactured by the liver, stored in the gallbladder, and released in response to fat in the stomach or intestines (I don’t remember which.) As I said in last reply, no digestion begins in a cat’s mouth. Stomach acid builds up in a cat’s stomach in anticipation of a meal. Just before dawn and dusk are peak hunting times. These are also peak acid times. Betty gets overnight and daytime portions not because she has acid barfs otherwise. But because she needs the extra eating opportunities to meet calorie goals since she doesn’t eat very much in any one sitting. 30 grams (just over an ounce) is often her limit. She needs about six and half ounces to meet calorie goals. So she gets five meals (32 to 36 grams) plus two medicine portions (8 grams each of calorie rich pure A/D.) I would love to collapse some of these feeding times into larger meals. But I don’t see her going for that. She would simply eat her ounce and save the rest for later. It is entirely possible that an accumulation of hair and/or slow motility makes it uncomfortable for her to eat more than an ounce at a time. This is something I hope a specialist can answer with either an an endoscopy or a barium study. This is also something I’m hoping the poop pills will help correct while I’m waiting for that specialist consultation appointment.

She is pretty much already on an all wet food diet. I saw what a lifetime of dry did to Krista in her last years. Since Betty’s intestines are already inflamed (and her teeth are still an unknown), I don’t want to add fuel to that fire. She does get a few pieces in exceptional times like if she’s not eating at all or to lure her onto the baby scale. For as much as she enjoys dry, I wish it was better for her than it is.

 

[Furballsmom]

Nothing by mouth for six to twelve hours is a common recommendation after vomiting and hairballs.

I was just wondering about this. On the flip side of it Poppycat can eat right away and keep it down (which I'm really glad about since he is getting to the point where he needs the calories to avoid skinny old cat syndrome ).

 

[cat nap]

I was just wondering about this. On the flip side of it Poppycat can eat right away and keep it down (which I'm really glad about since he is getting to the point where he needs the calories to avoid skinny old cat syndrome ).

(My previous CKD and HCM rainbow cat, Spotty, was like this. He would throw up a hairball,...more so in the last year of his life,...and then go and drink plenty of water, and eat. But he did lose a lot of weight in the last six months of his life, too. He made it till 15.5 yrs.)

How old is your Poppycat?
Does he also have other chronic issues, that are affecting his health?

 

[Furballsmom]

He's 17. Last checkup was good, with a couple things being closely watched. He's going in again early next month.

Didn't intend to sidetrack the thread, your info about that caught my eye is all

 

[cat nap]

He's 17. Last checkup was good, with a couple things being closely watched. He's going in again early next month.

Didn't intend to sidetrack the thread, your info about that caught my eye is all

I shouldn't speak for daftcat75 ,...but I don't really think he minds so much,...since we are ALL learning from his thread, about Betty.
Plus, even though all cats issues are different, by mentioning things, here and there...it might spur on some other ideas, too.
I like that everyone, mentions their cats, and various issues surrounding digestion,..and food, supplements...since then we get to learn even more.

But yeah, you're probably right Furballsmom ...I guess we shouldn't sidetrack, Betty's thread too, too, much.

 

[daftcat75]

I don’t mind collaboration. It’s good to have others who are still invested in Betty. I’ll let you know if a hijack should become its own thread.

Yeah. Some cats, like most dogs, can barf and go. Krista was like that when her IBD was better managed. “Yay! Three breakfasts!” Sadly, with Betty, a hairball, even a small one, is an all-day affair. Sometimes a two day affair as I’m reviewing last week’s food journal. Between Wednesday night when her eating slowed to Thursday morning when she popped and would not stop, she lost a full day’s worth of calories. So it doesn’t surprise me to report that her weight was slightly, slightly less than last week: 9.18 vs. 9.2? (I don’t remember if I rounded or it was actually 9.20 and Sheets truncated it.) In any case, I call this stable. Rounding error. Stable is good but gaining would be better. Perhaps 9.5 to 9.75 is where I would like her without putting too much extra on creaking joints. And hopefully we can figure out her gut soon enough and can move on to those joints. But because I know so many of those joint supplements shot right through Krista’s gut, I would like to focus on one thing at a time, if at all possible. Though I am wondering about her teeth once more…

 

[daftcat75]

Tldr; I weighed Betty and she’s stable—within the rounding error of the scale or my records. She enjoyed the kibble pieces so much that she didn’t even protest when I grabbed her butt skyward and plopped all the cat onto the scale.

 

[daftcat75]

I did some data analysis (okay a single average statement) on Betty’s food journal. Last week she averaged 177 calories a day. That’s only good for a single donkey. That means she was eating enough that I could sleep at night. But I wouldn’t want her at that level for very long. At the very least, I would want the double donkey effort of 180 calories (or 20cal/lbs for a 9lbs cat.) This is the effect a hairball has on her. The week prior to this or the first week of the new drug regimen was a double piggy average of 200 calories (or enough for a 10 lbs cat at 20cals/lbs.) It does not surprise me that he weigh-in dipped ever so slightly. For a desired weight of 9.5 lbs, she should be eating around 190 calories. More than that and that’s more fat for the next hairball. She had several days over 220 and one nearly 260 that first week of figuring the drugs and meals out that even with a hairball, she averaged over 200. But the real trick for the next few weeks will be to right size the mix and the portions to get her to her goal weight without having to reduce food when she gets there. For a 9.5 lbs cat, this week’s calorie target will be 190 calories per day.

Now having said that, she’s on target for 200 calories today. That’s not counting the few extra from the weigh-in kibbles. I’ll reduce her med portions of A/D if she takes the poop pills. Because the poop pills can and must replace other probiotic products (what was being mixed into her med portions of A/D) so as not to create unhelpful competition.

 

[cat nap]

With your data keeping, and analysis,...which I think is so valuable,
(and will be so useful to show the Vets,...or any Vet Specialists that Betty might have to see, in the future):

Can you easily see how many times, Betty threw up...since March?
(I think it was 3...but I would have to go back and skim the thread)

And this last one, was closer in time, to the previous one?
So no 'predictability factor'...yet,...and no suspected 'triggers'?
...as to when Betty will vomit?
(It's probably too early to tell,...not enough data, yet.)

The good thing...is that your goal of getting Betty to gain weight, is going well,...and I'm thinking that the stronger Betty gets, that her digestive system, will also absorb more nutrients.
Not to mention that Betty's other bodily systems must be improving, too.

Since you even noted that Betty's Stress levels are lower,...and when I looked back on photos,...she really, really progressed rapidly, in getting so attached, and close to her human.
If that does not say, that she is feeling loads better, than before, (in january, or february)...than I don't know what would.
You're doing a really great job with your Betty White cat.

 

[daftcat75]

With your data keeping, and analysis,...which I think is so valuable,
(and will be so useful to show the Vets,...or any Vet Specialists that Betty might have to see, in the future):

Can you easily see how many times, Betty threw up...since March?
(I think it was 3...but I would have to go back and skim the thread)

And this last one, was closer in time, to the previous one?
So no 'predictability factor'...yet,...and no suspected 'triggers'?
...as to when Betty will vomit?
(It's probably too early to tell,...not enough data, yet.)

The good thing...is that your goal of getting Betty to gain weight, is going well,...and I'm thinking that the stronger Betty gets, that her digestive system, will also absorb more nutrients.
Not to mention that Betty's other bodily systems must be improving, too.

Since you even noted that Betty's Stress levels are lower,...and when I looked back on photos,...she really, really progressed rapidly, in getting so attached, and close to her human.
If that does not say, that she is feeling loads better, than before, (in january, or february)...than I don't know what would.
You're doing a really great job with your Betty White cat.

I only started her food journal a few weeks ago. But I was able to leverage a lot of the template and calculations from Krista’s food journal. I don’t have enough data for all her incidents. I’m sure I could put that together from this thread. Its something I’ve been meaning to do. I would say the hairballs are roughly weekly. There was a stretch of 2.5 weeks. But one of those weeks she was barely eating (empty sausage) and the next she was turning in four piggy days (stuffed her sausage too fast!)

patterns I’ve been able to figure out so far…

She eats her first meals more readily when the A/D med/reward portion is smaller. She also finishes her plate faster when the A/D ratio is not as rich. What’s the magic ratio? Still figuring that out. But 1.13 cal/gram 4:1 (last week) seems too rich. We’re trying 1.09 closer to 2:1 this week.

When her eating slows, when I’m picking up plates with food on them at the next scheduled meal time, a hairball is imminent. The question I still have and I’m hoping the EYL will help here is whether there is anything to be done when she gets there (EYL, petroleum jelly, hairball gel, etc) or maybe I proactively fast her to see if her hunger can empty her stomach before her stomach/gut does it for her.

I’ve also been better able to determine her preferred eating times by the notes I keep. For example, while she wants second dinner usually a couple hours after first, she can eat half of breakfast, save the other half for later, and lay down for a good six hours of napping before she looks at the remainders again.

I do a lot of what-if accounting where I pre-enter meals and sizes and see how the calories can stack up for the day. This, combined with my notes about when Betty’s breakfasts were finished, showed me that Betty could lose a daytime meal and still hit calorie targets.

I think her meds (mirtz and ond.) make her sleepier. She used to have more nighttime zooms. It may also be that she just wants more cuddle time these days. She’s certainly making up for lost lap time. She sits in my lap every night for a few innings of baseball before I have to beg her off to brush my teeth and plate second dinner. She will also sometimes sit in my lap in the mornings. But I prefer to finish breakfast and lay back onto bed. I have the rest of the day to sit. But I value Betty after breakfast snuggles in the morning.

She’s currently riding my lap as I try to beg her off for two more innings before we plate second dinner and prepare for lights out.

 

[daftcat75]

I don’t know if it’s the EYL from last night, the smaller and potentially unnecessary med portion of A/D, the break from the dirt and the Feline Comfort supplements necessary for the poop pills, or…. but she’s just smokin’ through her meals tonight. I plated 36 grams (that’s supposed to have a remainder for later) and she ate it all in one sitting.

Her post EYL poop was unremarkable. It wasn’t larger or softer or hairier—though it did have hair in it. But maybe it was just enough. I picked that poop to send off samples to Animal Biome. I should get a report back on her gut biodiversity in two weeks. In the meantime, we start the poop pills tomorrow. Hopefully.