if making home made, what supplements do you use and why?

ldg

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Discussion in another thread got me wondering - if you're making home made food, what supplements do you use and why?

Right now, I'm feeding a boneless frankenprey kind of diet. Sort of. :lol3: I was feeding commercial raw, balanced foods, but a number of my cats decided they'd rather eat chunks than ground. And I'm still not comfortable with bones. It's not clear to me that the benefit of feeding raw bones outweighs the risks. :sigh:

I know a lot of people feeding frankenprey don't supplement at all... but I'm not comfortable with that.

In the end, I basically follow Dr. Pierson's recipe for raw, I just feed it "not ground." :lol3:

I supplement calcium with either eggshell or MCHA (microcrystalline calcium hydroxyapatite - freeze dried bone, not bone meal) at each meal. The reason for supplementing a meat and organ diet with calcium should be obvious, I think. :lol3:

I split 1000mg of taurine between 8 cats once a day. (I think the diet provides sufficient taurine, but as it's water soluble, there's no harm in just making sure there's enough...)

I split a 1000mg capsule of salmon oil for the Omega 3s between the 8 cats at each meal.

I provide 40 iu per day of Vitamin E (2 drops in the AM meal).

I trim the meat really well, and I do not include any skin in the food. My thinking here is that because I feed chicken, turkey, pork, lamb, goat, and venison meats (in addition to rabbit), and (rabbit), chicken, and beef organs ... meats and organs that have nutrient profiles that are nothing like small rodents (much higher in fats), I need to balance the higher omega 6 profile of this diet with the E and Omega 3s. I do feed some rabbit, and I do try to buy organic or pastured meats when possible. But the kitties definitely wind up with factory farmed meats in their meals. :nod:

I also provide a probiotic daily. This I would provide if they were eating a commercial canned diet. Commercial canned and kibble may be "balanced nutritionally," (well, given what understanding there is of a cat's nutritional needs), but very few contain active probiotic cultures. Again, my thinking here is that cats in the wild eat the guts of their prey - and so essentially receive probiotics from a live, whole prey diet. I want to ensure my kitties have a healthy gut flora, so they'll be on probiotics for life, as they would be if they were hunting whole prey. :nod:

And I do feed them eggs twice a week - half an egg each, so one whole egg a week. It's not a meal, it's a "snack." :lol3:

I also feed a whole sardine (canned, in water, no salt) to them as a "snack" once a week. I could have bumped my Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio by increasing the amount of sardines I feed, but I wasn't comfortable with that.

Otherwise... basically they get 90% meat, 5% liver, and 5% other secreting organs - which include beef pancreas and beef kidney. Their "90% meat" includes a meal of hearts three times a week (duck, turkey, and chicken each once a week).

Since they don't hate ground if I feed it infrequently, they do probably get one meal a week of ground raw, supplemented with the Alnutrin premix (which, again, is basically Dr. Pierson's recipe).
 
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ldg

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And I have to thank mschauer for helping me figure out how to balance their meals nutritionally. :)
 

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I'm gonna play along, even though I don't feed home made raw - but I do use a few supplements.  I also plan to eventually add some home made raw to my rotation, so I am very interested in this thread.

Quick background:  4 cats fed a rotation of high quality grain-free canned, commercial raw (Rad Cat and Stella & Chewy's at the moment) and a small bit of grain free kibble (Epigen-90 and Pinnacle Cat).  Every other day they get one of the raws. 

They are all perfectly healthy, with healthy litter habits without any supplements at all, except one - a kitten - that has loose stool if no supplements are used.  She has had this issue since we got her de-wormed when we first trapped her (ex-feral kitten).

I supplement all the cats daily with 1/2 capsule of Proviable-DC probiotic and 3/4 capsule for the kitten.  This solves the kittens litter issue.

I also supplement all the cats with a small amount of Verti-Lysine (250mg lysine 50mg HCI) each day.  This is prescribed for one of my cats due to dental issues (shelter rescuee) but I give to all anyway as an immune system booster.  Besides, they love the treats and I used it as a tool to help socialize the (ex)feral kitten.

I also have, but have not started to use Prozyme enzyme supplement.  I planned to use that if I ever started to increase the raw in their diet.  I do plan to one day, when I have more time to put in the effort. 

That's it.  I'm open to comments, suggestions, criticism (constructive or otherwise, I'm not picky). 

On a side note, for those that know me - I still have the 5th kitty, a CRF kitty, but he doesn't participate in any of this - he has his own special diet (McDonalds, Mac&Cheese and Captain Crunch).

 
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carolina

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I also feed boneless frankerprey...... Although I am not nearly as complete as Laurie :worship:

I need to do this in two Categories - Lucky and Bugsy, /Hope

All Hope's meals are supplemented with Wysong's Call of the Wild, and that makes it balanced and complete - she gets no organs, no liver, as it is in the supplement.

Lucky and Bugsy:
For Calcium I supplement it with Eggshells
They also get Taurine - about 200mg a day.
They throw up on organs, so I give them 1 freeze dry liver treat a day.

Bugsy and Hope get one Sardine a week.
I just purchased Some Omega-3, and will start adding that to their food as well- will probably skip the sardine, as they are not really fond of it.

They all get one capsule of Proviable-DC a day.
 

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I feed prey model raw (also called frankenprey). 

Mine get fish oil and/or sardines for the omega-3 in them, that is the only "supplement" that everyone gets.  I give that because the meat I feed is not free range/pasture raised meat which would be naturally high enough in omega-3's...I feed meat that is fed primarily a corn based diet which is very high in omega-6 instead so I need to balance them back out.

A few of mine (primarily TyTy, Jack, Rodent, and Wilda) get lysine powder on their food every few days, more often if I know something is going to be stressful to them, any stress causes the herpes virus to act up very badly in them.
 
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ldg

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Carolina, if you're adding an omega 3, the only thing you're not giving them I am is the Vitamin E! :lol3: The FD liver really ought to be giving them what they need. That little bit of liver adds a lot, and it seems freeze dried retains all of the nutritional characteristics. :D

I forgot to add, I give Ming Loy, Billy, and Flowerbelle lysine. :nod:
 

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Just curious on feeding a freeze dried liver treat as a supplement for the organs.  How do you know that ONE is enough?  And what brand...reason I ask is because right now I have Whole Life and Etta, but I don't think either one of those are actually raw.  (seems like we had this discussion somewhere before and finally concluded that they were NOT). 
 
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ldg

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I don't know what brand Carolina's using, but Pro-Treat is raw freeze-dried. They state the raw equivalent weight, so there's the way to have a rough idea. For the 5% liver in my menu, I feed twice a week, one-third of a full meal. For the kitties eating 4.5oz a day of food, that's probably 2-4 livers a week, depending on size;). :dk: But as most commercial raw foods are 10% - 20% liver, I think one liver a day may be on the high end, but I doubt it's harmful.
 
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carolina

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I use Etta Says, it is the one treat Lucy eats, so that's what they eat :nod:
 
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ldg

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Well, we were at the vet with Flowerbelle yesterday. We reviewed the menu and supplements. The diet comes up short in manganese. This, apparently, is important for bone and joint health. And Flowerbelle was just diagnosed with arthritis. The vet suggested I supplement with Cosequin for cats - although the chrondroitin and glucosamine have been shown to be no more effective than sugar pills in a number of studies, she's seen improvement in many pets from being on them. AND it has 1mg of manganese in it. I'm also going to use hyaluronic acid (the lubrication in the joints) for Flowerbelle.

Not sure how much (or if) I'm going to supplement the other kitties with Cosequin yet - have more work to do on that. But my laptop was having issues with the charging cord - and thankfully it WAS the charging cord, as it is now charging again with a new one. :clap: So I didn't have much laptop use the last few days, and I'm back in business so to speak. :lol3:
 

carolina

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Well, it seems I am the one who is going to be taking the fish oil over here after all :rolleyes:
Let's see the results of that intro:
Lucky - ate the first meal with it, but from the second one, gave me a lot of trouble, or refused to eat.
Hope - Flat out walks away from her plate completely - totally refuses to eat.... this is a :nono: No way I can risk her giving up on raw because of fish oil - that would be awful :thud:

Bugsy - the worst :dash: Major violent diarrhea another :nono:

Yep - basically...... Lucky hates sardines, so she will probably get none..... Hope and Bugsy will get one Sardine a week :dk:
Will see how that turns out......
 

mrsgreenjeens

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Well, we were at the vet with Flowerbelle yesterday. We reviewed the menu and supplements. The diet comes up short in manganese. This, apparently, is important for bone and joint health. And Flowerbelle was just diagnosed with arthritis. The vet suggested I supplement with Cosequin for cats - although the chrondroitin and glucosamine have been shown to be no more effective than sugar pills in a number of studies, she's seen improvement in many pets from being on them. AND it has 1mg of manganese in it. I'm also going to use hyaluronic acid (the lubrication in the joints) for Flowerbelle.

Not sure how much (or if) I'm going to supplement the other kitties with Cosequin yet - have more work to do on that.
Good thing you found this out sooner than later, huh?  So, was this your regular vet, or the holistic one, or what?  And is it because you're serving boneless Frankenprey?  Where would cats normally get their manganese?  Or is it just really Flowerbelle who mainly needs it because of her arthritis?  I'm kind of surprised because I know how thoroughly you research everything. 
Well, it seems I am the one who is going to be taking the fish oil over here after all

Let's see the results of that intro:
Lucky - ate the first meal with it, but from the second one, gave me a lot of trouble, or refused to eat.
Hope - Flat out walks away from her plate completely - totally refuses to eat.... this is a
No way I can risk her giving up on raw because of fish oil - that would be awful


Bugsy - the worst
Major violent diarrhea another


Yep - basically...... Lucky hates sardines, so she will probably get none..... Hope and Bugsy will get one Sardine a week

Will see how that turns out......
Wow!  Kind of surprising that NONE of them like it (or have a bad reaction to it)  Could it simply be the brand you are using?  I know there are several out there.  I tried Fish Oil once on my furkids, and none of them would eat any of their food with it on it.  And that was when they were still eating kibble!!  So I was pretty sure it was the brand and type that I bought.
 
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ldg

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Good thing you found this out sooner than later, huh?  So, was this your regular vet, or the holistic one, or what?  And is it because you're serving boneless Frankenprey?  Where would cats normally get their manganese?  Or is it just really Flowerbelle who mainly needs it because of her arthritis?  I'm kind of surprised because I know how thoroughly you research everything. 
Yep, better sooner rather than later! :nod:

This was the holistic vet.

The commercial diets that are sold "complete and balanced" supplement manganese. Maybe if I used ONLY MCHA (freeze dried bone) instead of some eggshell for the calcium, it would come up complete as recommended by the AAFCO? :dk: In the wild, we don't know how much manganese cats have in their diet. It wasn't in the Plantinga study. We do know that they eat a Ca:p ratio of 1.5:1. The theory is that the bioavailability of calcium and other minerals from bone isn't as high as it is in the supplements used in cat food. I don't know how much manganese there is in various meats, I haven't looked.

The AAFCO recommended amount of manganese is 3.4mg per pound of cat. That means Flowerbelle should have 25.5mg of manganese (at just under 7.5 pounds). I don't know how much is in her individual diet, but a 1mg supplement adds a lot. :lol3:

I am doing more work on the Omegas issue and the Vitamin E issue too. The amount of Vitamin E recommended by Dr. Pierson in her recipe is about 50x the AAFCO recommended amount. I know it's water soluble, but....

There's no RDA for Omega 6 or 3. It seems, like Ca:p, that the ratio of omega 6s and omega 3s is really important, and that the most important omega 3 is DHA. It is QUITE clear that a high quality supplement is important, and that Vitamin E is needed mostly when there's an issue of oxidation of the omegas. Using a high quality Omega 3 supplement that's added with the meal, not to a recipe that gets frozen mitigates that problem.

I'm probably going to reduce the amount of Vitamin E I add, and we'll see about the omegas.

mschauer provided me a list of the combined LA and AA (the omega 6s) in raw meats in the USDA database. I'm reworking the menu to bring down the omega 6s. The Omega 6: Omega 3 ratio in the feral cats' diet was 2:1, and Mercola recommends http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2005/07/28/pet-omega.aspx getting the ratio down to 2:1 or 1:1 (most commercial diets are at around 18:1 or 20:1). I don't know what happens to the rest of the nutrients, because the dark meats in poultry are higher in omega 6 - but also higher in nutrients. We'll just have to see! :D
 
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carolina

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Good thing you found this out sooner than later, huh?  So, was this your regular vet, or the holistic one, or what?  And is it because you're serving boneless Frankenprey?  Where would cats normally get their manganese?  Or is it just really Flowerbelle who mainly needs it because of her arthritis?  I'm kind of surprised because I know how thoroughly you research everything. 
Wow!  Kind of surprising that NONE of them like it (or have a bad reaction to it)  Could it simply be the brand you are using?  I know there are several out there.  I tried Fish Oil once on my furkids, and none of them would eat any of their food with it on it.  And that was when they were still eating kibble!!  So I was pretty sure it was the brand and type that I bought.
I don't think is the brand Sally - none of my cats really like fish..... Lucky hates sardines and won't eat it....
Hope and Bugsy eat, but it takes work - they don't eat all they should - definitely a work in progress.
Fish oils is, well.... very fishy.
About the diarrhea - with Bugsy's IBD, he is very sensitive, and with oils and fats, he can have that kind of reaction..... as well as with new things too. He is better though - all it took was to remove it from his diet, and today he is already better :nod: He had no problem eating it..... The problem was how it affected him :nod:
 

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Yep, better sooner rather than later!


This was the holistic vet.

The commercial diets that are sold "complete and balanced" supplement manganese. Maybe if I used ONLY MCHA (freeze dried bone) instead of some eggshell for the calcium, it would come up complete as recommended by the AAFCO?
In the wild, we don't know how much manganese cats have in their diet. It wasn't in the Plantinga study. We do know that they eat a Ca:p ratio of 1.5:1. The theory is that the bioavailability of calcium and other minerals from bone isn't as high as it is in the supplements used in cat food. I don't know how much manganese there is in various meats, I haven't looked.
 
Nope, using only MCHA wouldn't help much. My recipes that use only MCHA still come up short with regards to manganese also.  

Remember there are no studies to directly determine the manganese requires for cats. The AAFCO recommendation is based on studies other than cats and on cat studies that weren't specifically looking at manganese requirements. Or, the deficiency in our menus could be the result of deficiency in the diets of the animals used for meat.

Chicken liver has the most manganese at 0.255 mg/100 g. All the other ingredients in your menu contain some. All together still not enough to meet the AAFCO recommendation. 
 
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ldg

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Nope, using only MCHA wouldn't help much. My recipes that use only MCHA still come up short with regards to manganese also.  

Remember there are no studies to directly determine the manganese requires for cats. The AAFCO recommendation is based on studies other than cats and on cat studies that weren't specifically looking at manganese requirements. Or, the deficiency in our menus could be the result of deficiency in the diets of the animals used for meat.

Chicken liver has the most manganese at 0.255 mg/100 g. All the other ingredients in your menu contain some. All together still not enough to meet the AAFCO recommendation. 
In then end, that's just it. Some of the AAFCO recommendations don't base the recommendations based on information from studies in CATS. On the other hand... the "complete and balanced" diets are helping kitties live longer lives. (Well, especially if fed species-appropriate diets that are high protein, no grain, low carb). So while the AAFCO isn't the end-all, be-all, it is a helpful guideline. :nod:
 
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ldg

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Well, well, well.... I am NOT happy right now. Violet remembered seeing that chondroitin and glucosamine are CONTRA-INDICATED for both asthma AND high blood pressure!

http://senior-health.emedtv.com/glucosamine-and-chondroitin/is-glucosamine-and-chondroitin-safe.html
http://www.vetstreet.com/seraquin-chewable-tablets-for-cats-and-dogs-800-mg

Dr. Cheng is great with Chinese Medicine... but everything else always seems to need a second opinion! Good thing the supplement hasn't even arrived yet.
 

carolina

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Well, well, well.... I am NOT happy right now. Violet remembered seeing that chondroitin and glucosamine are CONTRA-INDICATED for both asthma AND high blood pressure!
http://senior-health.emedtv.com/glucosamine-and-chondroitin/is-glucosamine-and-chondroitin-safe.html
http://www.vetstreet.com/seraquin-chewable-tablets-for-cats-and-dogs-800-mg
Dr. Cheng is great with Chinese Medicine... but everything else always seems to need a second opinion! Good thing the supplement hasn't even arrived yet.
Oh hun, I am sorry! What about hyaluronic acid? I don't think there is as problem, is there? :vibes:
 
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ldg

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Actually, it seems there is. :( There doesn't seem to be an issue with hyaluronic acid and asthma, but it can cause high blood pressure. For people with hypertension, it's recommended it be taken "with an excess of water." Not quite sure what that means. But here are some links:

http://www.drpasswater.com/nutrition_library/Sardi.html
A summary: http://www.plasmetic.com/skin/antiaging/facts-about-oral-hyaluronic-acid-supplements.html
This only addresses HA by injection (which we'll have to see if that's an option): http://www.livestrong.com/article/2...s-of-glucosamine-chondroitin-hyaluronic-acid/
 
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