if making home made, what supplements do you use and why?

[ldg]

Sorry if some of this information is repeat, but I just posted this in my transition thread, but felt it was appropriate for this thread.

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The O6:O3 ratio is the Omega 6 (fatty acids) to Omega 3 (fatty acids) ratio. Omega 6s are generally inflammatory, they're the "saturated" fats. Omega 3s are anti-inflammatory, they're the "polyunsaturated" fats (PUFAs :lol3: ).

I'm old enough that when I was a kid, our meats had a different O6:O3 ratio, because most of our meat was still grazing before it went to the supermarket or butcher. The advent of factory farming and our "grain fed" meats has significantly raised the amount of omega 6 fatty acids in our meats. :nod: The main source of omega 3s is food from lakes/oceans (fish, shellfish, etc.).

Here's an excellent short summary of what they are, what they do, and why they're important: http://www.pethealth101.com/arthritis_and_joint/fattyacid.shtml

The AAFCO does, I THINK, have a minimum recommendation for one or two of the omega 6 essential fatty acids (AA - arachidonic acid and LA - linoleic acid). I'm pretty sure there are no minimum recommendations for any of the Omega 3 essential fatty acids (the two most important for cats being EPA - eicosapentaenoic acid and DHA - docosahexaenoic acid).

In the literature on the subject, "everyone" seems to agree that current diets have a ratio of O6:03 that is MUCH too high (way to many omega 6s, not being offset by enough omega 3s) - but we can't seem to find ANY consensus on HOW to calculate the O6:O3 ratio properly (because there are a lot more 6s and 3s than just those four). There does seem to be a consensus that a ratio of below 5:1 O6:O3 is desirable. Some suggest it should be 2:1 or 1:1, but without heaps of fish, it's pretty difficult to get there (if you use only AA+LA for the omega 6 value and EPA+DHA for the omega 3 value).
AND the whole thing is complicated by the QUALITY of the omega 3s. They are not very stable, and how the salmon or fish oil is processed makes a BIG difference, and they pretty much oxidize in the process of being put into pet food at all, which is why kibble and canned, despite supplements for many of them, still have a terrible O6:03 ratio (often approaching 20:1). That's the issue with Vitamin E - it is used to stabilize omega 3, or "offset" issues that arise from oxidation of omega 3s. But so far I'm finding that Vitamin E doesn't need to be supplemented if using a high quality salmon oil supplement. And for me it's also not as much an issue (as I'm learning), because I don't make food and freeze it: I add the salmon oil when I make and feed the meal, so there is no oxidation or freezer degradation of the salmon oil.

The Plantinga study of feral cat diets indicates that in the wild, their natural O6:03 ratio is about 2:1. (In the study, they use n-6:n-3 as the notation for the same thing).

mschauer offered to analyze the menu we had for the cats. I took her up on it. I don't remember the first run, but I do remember the omega 6mega 3 ratio was somewhere around 12:1 or something like that.

And especially now, because of Lazlo's cancer and Flowerbelle's asthma and arthritis, I REALLY want them on an anti-inflammatory diet - and especially because she can't have the typical treatments for arthritis as they're contra-indicated because of her high blood pressure and the asthma (and the anti-inflammatory diet will be good for those too ).

So I'm altering the menu - or trying to - to bring down the O6:03 ratio, but without losing a lot of the nutrients. For instance, I feed hearts 3x a week: duck hearts at one meal, turkey hearts at another meal, and chicken hearts at the third meal. The chicken hearts have 2.63mg per 100kg of AA+LA (omega 6s). By replacing them with lamb hearts, that have 0.33mg per 100kg of AA+LA, I can likely (haven't asked mschauer to run a new menu, I don't have it put together yet) reduce the O6:03 ratio but not dramatically impact the other nutrients.

I don't know how replacing some of the chicken thigh and turkey thigh in the diet will affect the nutrient profile - potentially dramatically. But chicken thigh has 0.813mg/100kg AA+LA, whereas chicken breast has only 0.35mg/100kg of AA+LA. Changing this will change the other nutrients, but I'll have just have to see.

Here's another easy-to-understand discussion of fats in a cat's diet, written by Michelle Bernard of Blakkatz cattery, author of the book "Raising Cats Naturally." http://www.blakkatz.com/fat.pdf

I have lowered the ratio of O6:03 by adding 21,000mg of salmon oil (one 1000mg capsule divided between 8 cats at each meal) and the weekly "treat" of one sardine for each cat to about 6:1. But I want to lower it further - and rather than add more O3, I want to try to lower the O6 by adjusting the meat and organ mix.

This is the salmon oil I'm going to use: (It's available at Costco, I think for less). This is information about it: http://www.alaskaproteinrecovery.com/salmonoil We currently have Nordic Naturals, which is recommended on a lot of cat blogs discussing the Omega issue. They claim there is no benefit to "virgin, cold pressed" which the Pure Alaska Omega is, but I'm not sure I believe that. :lol3:

 

[mschauer]

Below is  a link to a paper that contains a nice discussion of why fatty acids are important. It is mostly a discussion of some of the nutritional differences between grass fed and grain fed beef so it also provides a lot of data to support supplementing a raw diet rather than just assuming that because the meat is raw that it contains all nutrients of a cats natural diet.

With regards to fatty acids, the paper makes the point that grass fed and grain fed beef contain comparable amounts of omega6 fatty acids but that the omega3 content of grain fed beef is much lower than that of grass fed. This is one of the reasons the omega6/omega3 ratio in our homemade diets can be much higher than what it would be in a cats natural diet and is one reason we need to supplement with fish oil (which is high in omega3s).

http://www.nutritionj.com/content/9/1/10

 

[ldg]

Excellent! Thanks for that. :nod: So I need to revise the above statement I made, as it's wrong.

I'm old enough that when I was a kid, our meats had a different O6:O3 ratio, because most of our meat was still grazing before it went to the supermarket or butcher. The advent of factory farming and our "grain fed" meats has significantly raised the amount of omega 6 fatty acids in our meats. :nod:

Factory farming/grain feeding animals that normally graze changes the O6:O3 ratio, but not by increasing the O6 profile, but by lowering the amount of O3 in the meat. Important difference.

It's interesting, because now "vegetarian fed" chickens are touted where we buy meat. But chickens aren't vegetarians. The issue arises because of ingredients in animal feed, and chickens should not be fed chicken meal, or maybe beef by-products or whatever. But what we want to look for are PASTURED chickens - so they can eat all those bugs they normally eat.

 

[mschauer]

It's interesting, because now "vegetarian fed" chickens are touted where we buy meat. But chickens aren't vegetarians. The issue arises because of ingredients in animal feed, and chickens should not be fed chicken meal, or maybe beef by-products or whatever. But what we want to look for are PASTURED chickens - so they can eat all those bugs they normally eat.

Yeah, I don't understand why we would want vegetarian chickens??? I guess that goes in the same Life's Great Mysteries category as why a chicken can be called "free range" even if it hasn't been outdoors a single second of its life!

 

[ldg]

Yeah. They need to "re-label" that one. Should be "not individually caged."

 

[carolina]

Yeah, I don't understand why we would want vegetarian chickens??? I guess that goes in the same Life's Great Mysteries category as why a chicken can be called "free range" even if it hasn't been outdoors a single second of its life!

Here is why you want a vegetarian-fed Chicken:

vegetarian-fed


Subscribe


What's the Deal With "Vegetarian Fed"?


This is a question that crops up a lot on BYC. Often enough that I decided to create a static page to point people towards. Saves me the typing! The "vegetarian chickens" issue comes from two directions:

1.Eggs and chicken at the grocery store labeled "vegetarian fed."
2.Chicken feed labeled "no animal protein/vegetable protein sources only."

Chickens, as every chicken owner knows, are not vegetarians. They evolved as omnivores, willing and able to take advantage of any food source that came their way. Whether it be grass and clover or baby mice and mealworms, chickens will pretty much eat it! In fact, chickens NEED two key nutrients which are found only in meat: lysine and methionine.


So what's the deal?

The deal is, you have two choices:
1.A feed based on vegetable proteins, ideally with those missing meat-only nutrients added. (Purina's Layena SunFresh , for example, is made from vegetable protein sources but includes lysine and methionine.)
2.A feed which contains "animal protein." Note the "air quotes."

When a feed label just says "animal protein," it could literally be anything. Commercial chicken feed can and does contain some really awful stuff, including but not limited to:
•Ground up downer cattle (cattle too sick to stand - the FDA says you can't feed downer cattle to people, but the USDA says it's legal to put them in animal feed).
•Feathers, bones, bodies, feet, and offal from battery hens. These are hens which are raised in cages the size of a shoebox. When they die, they are likely sick, malnourished, and pumped full of antibiotics. Antibiotics and other medications are definitely passed into the feed, and illnesses can be.
•Plastic. Many rendering plants receive spoiled styrofoam and plastic wrapped cuts of meat from grocery stores. Since unwrapping the meat would be time-consuming, typically they just dump the whole thing into the grinder, plastic wrap and all.
•Soiled bedding (chicken poop and sawdust) from chicken feed lots.

•Cattle and pig manure.
•Cats and dogs euthanized at animal shelters, including the chemicals used to euthanize them, and any medication the animals were on prior to their death.

Given this choice - between a vegetable protein feed with supplemental nutrients, and "animal protein," which would you prefer? Many consumers prefer the former, which is why you see "vegetarian fed" and "no animal protein sources" as a selling point.

Further reading:
•They Eat What? A great article by the Union of Concerned Scientists.
•Fast Food Nation by Eric Schlosser
•The Omnivore's Dilemma by Michael Pollan
•Pollan also has a collection of some of his essays available on his website.
•Food, Inc a great documentary

http://www.backyardchickens.com/a/vegetarian-fed

Believe you me, it does make a difference..... How do I know? If I feed Bugsy a Vegetarian-fed chicken he is completely fine..... If I feed him a regular chicken, he has violent, explosive diarrhea - reason why he was once labeled "allergic to chicken".

 

[ldg]

Yes, I will chose a vegetarian fed chicken over a "regular" factory farmed chicken any day. But if I can source at a reasonable price pastured organic chickens, I'd much prefer that. With your new job, you don't have time to check local farmer's markets, but I'm willing to bet Bugsy does just fine on a pastured organic chicken. :nod:

 

[carolina]

Yes, I will chose a vegetarian fed chicken over a "regular" factory farmed chicken any day. But if I can source at a reasonable price pastured organic chickens, I'd much prefer that. With your new job, you don't have time to check local farmer's markets, but I'm willing to bet Bugsy does just fine on a pastured organic chicken. :nod:

Oh yeah, but the organic ones are veg-fed too, at least the ones I have seen...... Very $$$..... Around $10/lb - I can almost do the boneless rabbit loin for that price hehe

 

[ldg]

:lol3: Yeah, the ones I find in stores are too. :nod: I mean finding local sources for the pastured stuff: http://www.eatwild.com

 

[ldg]

http://www.texasgrassfedbeef.com/buy_meat_online.htm

The per pound prices include shipping. The minimum order is 20 pounds/$100.

 

[mschauer]

I know I'm a little late to the game but I've been revising my recipes and wanted to post after finishing my tweaking.

Below are links to 2 version of my pork recipe. One is a recipe without supplementation except for MCHA and one is the same recipe but with supplementation. The analysis uses nutrient information obtained from the USDA nutrient database. That database doesn't track iodine and taurine and so the amounts of those nutrients shown in the analysis are from other sources.

Pork Dinner w/o Supps

Pork Dinner w Supps

When I started making my own raw food I started with Dr. Pierson's recipe. Once I started doing nutrient analyses of my foods I have adjusted my recipes based on the results of those analyses and on my own research.

I feed a ground diet that is prepared in advance and frozen for up to 6 weeks. The supplements are added before freezing with the exception of the sardines. I mix half of a 4 oz can of sardines with their food twice a week before putting the food down. I also add aprrox 250 mg to taurine to their food once or twice a week in addition to the amount contained in the recipe. 

OK, so much for the preamble! Here are the supplements I currently add and why I add them:

Vitamin E : The recipe without added vitamin E falls short of AAFCO recommendations. I add enough to be approximatly 10x the AAFCO recommendation because in addition to it's nutritional value vitamin E is also an antioxidant. 

MCHA : This is freeze dried whole bone. Freeze drying means it maintains the full nutrient profile of whole bone and so is superior, IMO, to bonemeal which is heat processed which damages nutrients. I used to use ground whole bone but I found it impossible to determine how much calcium they were actually getting using that method and I was concerned about providing the proper calcium/phosphorus ratio. MCHA is in powder form and I have a fairly complete nutrient profile for it so it is easy to get the Ca right.

Manganese : The recipe analysis shows a deficency in manganese without supplementation. There is considerable question about what amount a cat really needs though. There are no studies involving cats to directly determine the need. The AAFCO recommended value is based on studies of mammals other than cats and on studies involving cats but which did not focus directly on manganese. I've chosen to play it safe by supplementing but will likely revisit the issue at some point. There are several examples of long term raw fed colonies which have never received manganese supplementation and have shown no ill affects. 

Iodized salt : Added purely for the iodine. The USDA database does not track iodine in foods so the amount in the analysis is likely lower than the actual amount present in the recipe. I add a small amount to get the total closer to the AAFCO recommendation but still below it on the assumption that there is more present in the diet than the analysis shows and too much iodine can be as detrimental to health as too little. Low dietary iodine has been implicated, although inconclusively, in the high rates of hyperthyroidism seen in cats in recent times. 

Fish oil : Added for omega 3 fatty acids. As with humans, the research on the benefits of a good balance between omega 3 and omega 6 fatty acids in a cat diet is in it's infancy. But, again as with humans, there is considerable evidence that the lower omega 3 fatty acids in modern food ingredients might be responsible for some chronic ailments. Without supplementation, the recipe analysis shows a omega 6 to omega 3 ratio of 30:1, that is, 30 times more omega 6s than omega3s. The optimal ratio is believed to be something less than 10:1 and possibly as low as 2:1. I add enough fish oil to get the ratio close to 5:1.

Sardines : Added as a source of omega 3 fatty acids in their natural form. My cats aren't wild about them though so I only split one 3.75 oz can between them a week.

B-Complex : The analysis shows the recipe has pretty good levels of most B vitamins. It is a bit short on folate. Also B12 is one of those *delicate* vitamins that may be harmed during freezing and thawing so added more of that seems prudent. At some point I may revisit the use of a B-complex supplement though. Maybe just a folate and B12 supplement would be more appropriate. 

Taurine : For the usual reason, mostly just playing it safe! 

 

[minka]

I know the first post here is Way old, but why would you trim the meat? (other than for billy) If you're trying to get towards a more natural diet, it would make sense to me to include all that comes with the meat because well, cats aren't very good at using knives in the wild.

 

[misscherry]

If I am feeding my cat raw (bones included) and give her a huge variety do I really need supplements? I assumed her raw diet was all she needs but I just saw this thread. My cat seems so happy an healthy I can't imagine she needs any extra supplements.

 

[minka]

If I am feeding my cat raw (bones included) and give her a huge variety do I really need supplements? I assumed her raw diet was all she needs but I just saw this thread. My cat seems so happy an healthy I can't imagine she needs any extra supplements.

As long as you give her the raw proportions of whole meat, organs and bone, then no.

 

[mschauer]

If I am feeding my cat raw (bones included) and give her a huge variety do I really need supplements? I assumed her raw diet was all she needs but I just saw this thread. My cat seems so happy an healthy I can't imagine she needs any extra supplements.

One method of raw feeding assumes that meat, bones and organs are all that cats need. But even some people who make this claim do supplement with fish oil although for some reason they don't seem to consider it supplementing.  I certainly can't say that I know there is any problem with this method.

For me, there are a few reasons I'm not comfortable with the above assumption. The belief is that the meat, bone and organs method adequately represents a cats "natural" diet. A cats natural diet is generally accepted to consist of mice and other small rodents, small birds, insects, lizards and possibly rabbits. But very few raw feeders feed that kind of diet. Instead they feed chicken, turkey, beef, pork, goat, etc. So the assumption is that those unnatural meat sources are close enough to the natural diet. Maybe, maybe not.

Also, in a cats natural diet it would consume the entire animal, head, fur, feathers, etc. Few raw feeders do this. Therefore there could be valuable nutrients in those unfed body parts that our raw fed cats are missing out on.

And, unless the animals we feed are themselves raised naturally, their tissue and organs do not have the nutrient profile that an animal raised naturally would have. Again, our raw fed kitties might be missing out on needed nutrients.

I prefer to look at the nutrient profile of the diet I feed my kitties, or a close approximation of it, and compare it against known research on cat nutrition and fill in any nutrients I think are lacking with supplements.  

 

[ldg]

I know the first post here is Way old, but why would you trim the meat? (other than for billy) If you're trying to get towards a more natural diet, it would make sense to me to include all that comes with the meat because well, cats aren't very good at using knives in the wild.

Yes, but cats don't normally eat chicken, pork, turkey, beef kidney, etc. And these meats, unless pastured and fed a species-appropriate diet, or in the case of beef, grass-fed, don't have a natural omega 6-to-omega 3 ratio, and probably have very different mineral/trace mineral profiles at a minimum, and I'm sure they have at least a slightly different vitamin profile. AND even pastured and fed naturally, they still likely have a very different O6:O3 and somewhat different nutrient profile than rabbits, mice, and other small mammals (and lizards and bugs). They're definitely low in omega 3 compared to the natural diet of a cat. The O6:O3 ratio of a feral cat diet is 2:1. As mschauer pointed out, without supplements, the O6:O3 profile of one of her recipes is 30:1. The ratio of most commercial canned/kibble is 17:1 - 20:1. I trim the fat to lower the amount of O6 they consume, and I supplement with sardines and salmon oil to increase the amount of O3. The O6:O3 ratio of the diet I feed is about 4:1.

If I am feeding my cat raw (bones included) and give her a huge variety do I really need supplements? I assumed her raw diet was all she needs but I just saw this thread. My cat seems so happy an healthy I can't imagine she needs any extra supplements.

There's different thinking on that. There is definitely a school of thought that says it provides all they need. My thinking is as above: cats normally eat small mammals, lizards, and bugs. I don't provide any of those. So I feed my cats like they're carnivores, but I adjust the diet I provide them to compensate for the fact that I'm not feeding them meat that matches the nutrient profile of their natural prey.

 

[ldg]

Also, in a cats natural diet it would consume the entire animal, head, fur, feathers, etc. Few raw feeders do this. Therefore there are valuable nutrients in those unfed body parts that our raw fed cats are missing out on.

Right, there's that too. :nod:

 

[ldg]

I summed up my outlook on it in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/244748/getting-started-questions

.....For what it's worth, my take on supplements and raw feeding is pretty simple. I'm not a meat/bones/organs "purist," but "prey model" isn't actually the model of a prey animal. I think cats don't need more than meat, bones and organs, and analysis of feral cat diets indicate this is true. They are designed to get all they need from eating only animals - but we do need to compensate for the differences in the animals we feed them vs. their prey, for the way the animals we feed them are fed and raised vs. what their prey animals eat (affecting the nutrition content of that meat and those bones and organs), and we need to compensate for the parts of the animals we don't feed them.

 

[mschauer]

Not that it matters but the unsupplemented ratio was 17:1 or 21:1 depending on whether ALA is included as an omega3. 

 

[ldg]

Oh! I thought you said in your post it was 30:1. Or are you referring to the diet I'm feeding them? Yeah, it was pretty high without supplementing. :nod: