if making home made, what supplements do you use and why?

[mschauer]

Oh! I thought you said in your post it was 30:1. Or are you referring to the diet I'm feeding them? Yeah, it was pretty high without supplementing.

Oh, the post does say 30:1. That must have been a different version of the recipe. The one I provided a link to has a different ratio.

Oh well, that'll give people something to scratch their heads over!

 

[ldg]

Really, it doesn't matter. Without supplementing at LEAST sardines or fish oil or something, the O6:O3 ratio is just completely off when feeding the meats most of use. :nod:

 

[misscherry]

I give my kitty whole small fish like butter fish. She eats the head and bones and all I figured she doesnt need fish oil if shes eating fish right? lol

 

[mschauer]

I give my kitty whole small fish like butter fish. She eats the head and bones and all I figured she doesnt need fish oil if shes eating fish right? lol

Depends on how much you are feeding and what your goal is. If you look at the analysis of my unsupplemented recipe it includes sardines and the omega6mega3 ratio is still quite high so the supplemented recipe includes both sardines and fish oil. Feeding some fish is a great way to get omega3s in their natural form though.

 

[mrsgreenjeens]

Depends on how much you are feeding and what your goal is. If you look at the analysis of my unsupplemented recipe it includes sardines and the omega6mega3 ratio is still quite high so the supplemented recipe includes both sardines and fish oil. Feeding some fish is a great way to get omega3s in their natural form though.

Did I miss it, or did you explain WHY you have two different recipes in the first place?  since you have your supplemented recipe, I would think that's the one you would feed, isn't it?  Oh, and is there a reason you don't feed Frankenprey?  (just curious!) 

 

[mschauer]

Did I miss it, or did you explain WHY you have two different recipes in the first place?  since you have your supplemented recipe, I would think that's the one you would feed, isn't it?  Oh, and is there a reason you don't feed Frankenprey?  (just curious!) 

I posted both versions just to help in explaining why I add some supplements.

I don't feed whole pieces with bone because I have 1 almost toothless cat who couldn't handle the pieces anyway and also because I'm not comfortable with feeding whole bone. I could probably get over the worrying about the risk of impaction and perforation but I don't think I could get over worrying about not *really* knowing how much calcium they were getting. I do sometimes give the "fully toothed" ones whole chicken and duck hearts and meat chunks.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Can someone explain the purpose of adding supplements? If the whole point of feeding raw food is to give cats a completely natural diet and, as one poster said, cooking is what kills vital nutrients, I would assume raw-fed cats are the least likely to need dietary supplements.

 

[mschauer]

Can someone explain the purpose of adding supplements? If the whole point of feeding raw food is to give cats a completely natural diet and, as one poster said, cooking is what kills vital nutrients, I would assume raw-fed cats are the least likely to need dietary supplements.

Have you read the posts in this thread????

 

[ldg]

Have you read the posts in this thread????

I've noticed this issue before. I don't think so.

Emily, your question was answered by mschauer in post #35:

One method of raw feeding assumes that meat, bones and organs are all that cats need. But even some people who make this claim do supplement with fish oil although for some reason they don't seem to consider it supplementing.  I certainly can't say that I know there is any problem with this method.

For me, there are a few reasons I'm not comfortable with the above assumption. The belief is that the meat, bone and organs method adequately represents a cats "natural" diet. A cats natural diet is generally accepted to consist of mice and other small rodents, small birds, insects, lizards and possibly rabbits. But very few raw feeders feed that kind of diet. Instead they feed chicken, turkey, beef, pork, goat, etc. So the assumption is that those unnatural meat sources are close enough to the natural diet. Maybe, maybe not.

Also, in a cats natural diet it would consume the entire animal, head, fur, feathers, etc. Few raw feeders do this. Therefore there could be valuable nutrients in those unfed body parts that our raw fed cats are missing out on.

And, unless the animals we feed are themselves raised naturally, their tissue and organs do not have the nutrient profile that an animal raised naturally would have. Again, our raw fed kitties might be missing out on needed nutrients.

I prefer to look at the nutrient profile of the diet I feed my kitties, or a close approximation of it, and compare it against known research on cat nutrition and fill in any nutrients I think are lacking with supplements.  

and by me in post #36

Yes, but cats don't normally eat chicken, pork, turkey, beef kidney, etc. And these meats, unless pastured and fed a species-appropriate diet, or in the case of beef, grass-fed, don't have a natural omega 6-to-omega 3 ratio, and probably have very different mineral/trace mineral profiles at a minimum, and I'm sure they have at least a slightly different vitamin profile. AND even pastured and fed naturally, they still likely have a very different O6:O3 and somewhat different nutrient profile than rabbits, mice, and other small mammals (and lizards and bugs). They're definitely low in omega 3 compared to the natural diet of a cat. The O6:O3 ratio of a feral cat diet is 2:1.

As mschauer pointed out, without supplements, the O6:O3 profile of one of her recipes is 30:1. The ratio of most commercial canned/kibble is 17:1 - 20:1. I trim the fat to lower the amount of O6 they consume, and I supplement with sardines and salmon oil to increase the amount of O3. The O6:O3 ratio of the diet I feed is about 4:1.

If I am feeding my cat raw (bones included) and give her a huge variety do I really need supplements? I assumed her raw diet was all she needs but I just saw this thread. My cat seems so happy an healthy I can't imagine she needs any extra supplements.

There's different thinking on that. There is definitely a school of thought that says it provides all they need. My thinking is as above: cats normally eat small mammals, lizards, and bugs. I don't provide any of those. So I feed my cats like they're carnivores, but I adjust the diet I provide them to compensate for the fact that I'm not feeding them meat that matches the nutrient profile of their natural prey.

and in post #38

I summed up my outlook on it in this thread: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/244748/getting-started-questions

....For what it's worth, my take on supplements and raw feeding is pretty simple. I'm not a meat/bones/organs "purist," but "prey model" isn't actually the model of a prey animal. I think cats don't need more than meat, bones and organs, and analysis of feral cat diets indicate this is true. They are designed to get all they need from eating only animals - but we do need to compensate for the differences in the animals we feed them vs. their prey, for the way the animals we feed them are fed and raised vs. what their prey animals eat (affecting the nutrition content of that meat and those bones and organs), and we need to compensate for the parts of the animals we don't feed them.

Basically, the raw food we feed our cats is

1) not usually whole prey. Since we don't know what nutrients are missing from the parts we don't feed, the best we can do is compensate by ensuring a variety of proteins.

2) not usually the natural diet of cats (small mammals, small birds, lizards and bugs). Of course, there are some raw feeders that feed whole prey mice, rabbits, and a number of people feed crickets. But cats eat far more than mice and rabbits and crickets in the wild. Again, the best way to address is this is by providing a variety of proteins.

3) often not naturally raised, and even if it were meat from animals naturally fed and pastured, at a minimum, the fat profile of a cow, duck, chicken, turkey, pig, deer, (or whatever) is not the same as that of small mammals, birds, lizards and crickets. Most raw feeders address the problem with the omega 6: omega 3 ratio by supplementing at least SOME omega 3s in the form of sardines, egg yolks, and/or some type of fish oil.

3) not fresh kill. It is stored, transported, put on shelves or shipped, frozen, and then dethawed and re-frozen. Some of us opt to address the potential damage done to some nutrients in this process.

Of course, IMO, even an unsupplemented diet of properly balanced raw meat, organs, and calcium from varying protein sources is better than commercial canned or kibble.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

I went back and read most of the thread. It looks to me like cats should eat fish (although I am not sure it must be sardines). This would make a lot more sense to me than a vegetarian chicken on a factory farm. Turkish Vans are natural fishercats, but any breed feline would like a fish. I know one reason to eat fish is the omega 3 and salmon also has Vitamin D. But I also read it is possible to feed too much fish to a cat. What is wrong with feeding fish every day and then not worrying about whether a chicken is vegetarian or not?

 

[ldg]

I went back and read most of the thread. It looks to me like cats should eat fish (although I am not sure it must be sardines). This would make a lot more sense to me than a vegetarian chicken on a factory farm. Turkish Vans are natural fishercats, but any breed feline would like a fish. I know one reason to eat fish is the omega 3 and salmon also has Vitamin D. But I also read it is possible to feed too much fish to a cat. What is wrong with feeding fish every day and then not worrying about whether a chicken is vegetarian or not?

Because feeding fish can cause a Vitamin K deficiency. Also, fish higher up the food chain often have heavy metals and toxins in their flesh. Many cats are allergic to fish.

It is not recommended to feed fish daily. Sardines are an excellent supplement, because they live short lives and are relatively low on the fish food chain.

Here is an article on why you should not feed fish frequently to cats: http://www.littlebigcat.com/nutrition/why-fish-is-dangerous-for-cats/

As to the salmon, most if IT is factory farmed, and flesh parasites are a real problem ( ), and that salmon is fed soy and other unnatural foods. :lol3: I refuse to eat farmed salmon, I wouldn't feed it to my cats.

 

[emilymaywilcha]

Thank you LDG. I did read online cats should not eat fish every day, but so many posts on this thread are about increasing omega 3 I thought maybe cats should eat more fish than they are getting (as long as it is not tuna, of course).

The reason I am reading this thread is to learn more about feline nutrition because I started thinking about making up my own cat food recipe. I also am curious about the benefits of eating more than blood, muscles, and fat that is cut away from the bones. Everything I learn about raw feeding would be for a future cat because Patricia is almost 16, so I don't want to make a drastic diet change with her.

 

[ldg]

Thank you LDG. I did read online cats should not eat fish every day, but so many posts on this thread are about increasing omega 3 I thought maybe cats should eat more fish than they are getting (as long as it is not tuna, of course).

Well, tuna isn't the only problem.

The reason I am reading this thread is to learn more about feline nutrition because I started thinking about making up my own cat food recipe.

There are a number of raw food recipes out there that are time-tested, and formulated by vets.

This is one of them: http://www.catinfo.org/?link=makingcatfood

I also am curious about the benefits of eating more than blood, muscles, and fat that is cut away from the bones.

Well, I'm not sure I understand what you're saying ("the benefits of eating more than... " ). :dk: Raw can be fed by buying commercial, or making home-made. If making home made, feeding meat, bones (or using a calcium supplement), and organs needs to be done with the right percentages. It's not rocket science (in fact, it's quite easy). Some people feed ground they make, others feed "whole prey model" (otherwise known as "frankenprey."). Some buy ground mixes and add an already prepared supplement. There's a lot of possibilities.

The Raw Resources thread has many helpful links to quite a bit of very helpful information: http://www.thecatsite.com/t/240809/raw-feeding-resource-thread