I Have More Trust Issues Than This Feral..

Buffster7

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Poor vets. This COVID thing must make the days really long and complicated for them. Watching the girls run back and forth to cars with animals, then the vet having to call during the appointment to get more details, what a pain for them, too.

The lump is a fatty tumor, he noted the hair loss and scraped skin for mites; samples came up negative. He recommends to do what I'm doing, a slow process of elimination and see if anything changes. If he starts displaying bizarre behavior again, I will pursue the FHS. But when Charlie was displaying the weird symptoms and exacerbated skin rippling, he and Finn weren't getting along. I have noticed that when Finn lingers behind him, his skin on his back will begin to ripple. I'm wondering if it's not stress/anxiety related. I will continue to keep them separated when I leave for this month. It sucks, because I really wanted Finn and Charlie to be company for each other while I was at clinicals, but their personalities.. I really was feeling discouraged about them last night, thinking it's been 9 months and we should be farther along than this. Today's scene with them laying together encourages me. And so do you guys - thank you! :hugs:
 

pearl99

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I really was feeling discouraged about them last night, thinking it's been 9 months and we should be farther along than this. Today's scene with them laying together encourages me. And so do you guys - thank you! :hugs:
I think that scene is very encouraging. Waffles and Mooshoo have been more on edge since Ziggy came, another intro for them, but have to roll with how they feel.
I kind of think Charlie and Finn having some time separated and with you home has helped them. Took a breather to get some relaxation.
Stay well and glad Charlie is doing better!
 

Buffster7

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How are the boys this morning? Did they bond over their vet visit without Mom?
They are doing well today! They're SHARING! Charlie tried to get Finn off his chair once and it got heated, but Finn absolutely refused to move, and I had to get up and leave the room so I wouldn't interfere. They followed me when I left and that was that. Then Charlie reclaimed his chair and Finn joined him. Charlie wasn't real happy but finally acquiesced with a really grumpy look on his face. You can see his facial expression change as the pictures progress. They stayed in the chair all afternoon - part of me wonders if it was a contest of wills! "I'm not getting down, YOU get down." :lol:

But then tonight something happened that I've NEVER seen happen - Charlie was laying on my bed, Finn jumped up and sniffed Charlie's back intently. This usually leads to Charlie slapping him. However, Charlie allowed it, and then Finn started licking him!! Now, I've seen Charlie lick Finn before, And Finn doesn't really like it. But I've never seen Finn lick Charlie before! It wasn't a lay-down-and-groom session, but there were definitely about 4 or 5 good licks! What does this mean? Is it dominance or is it friendship or what?

chairhog.jpg


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lazyday.jpg
 

pearl99

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Oh my goodness! Butt to butt.
I have no idea about the licking. The few times Waffles has done it to Moo it seems like affection.
Finn is too funny not getting off the chair. Moo did that to Waffles and Waffles' reactions were priceless- confused, not sure what to do, look around like "help"
Glad things are going so well!
 

Buffster7

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Love the butt-to-butt pics. :redheartpump: Not sure if that screams "friends' or not, but better than fur flying. :catrub:

About the licking/grooming, this TCS article might answer the question.
spoiler: it can be about aggression. :sigh:

Why Do Cats Groom Each Other? (the Answer Will Surprise You!) – Cat Articles
Yes, I think you're right! I think that's why Finn usually hates it when Charlie licks him. Something tells me it's a bit of a dominance thing with them - though I think sometimes it's been friendly, on rare occasion. Then yesterday, when Charlie was acquiescing on the chair situation, followed by Finn licking him...maybe it's part of them working it out. I'll take it - at least it's working it out without fur flying. ;)

Yesterday evening I was working at my table and came to realize I'd not seen the boys for a while. I went looking for them all over the house - finally found them in my bedroom on my bed! They weren't laying together, but the fact that they chose to lay in the same room together rather than lay close to where I was working was also a first. Interesting to watch this unfold.

Finn has spring fever today and is tearing around the house like a crazy man. I hear Charlie hissing at him in the next room while I type this. He also refused his breakfast and his lunch - I wonder if he's tasting the Zylkene and refusing food that has it in it, now? Argh!
Overall, feeling pretty hopeful. :)
 

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The licking? Who’s your Daddy? Lol Both being top cat parent and affection. It’s probably fine considering the photos. They are still learning and adjusting but they are so very far into things, they would never want to be apart now. They might not want to admit that! :lol:
 

mentat

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I don't know anything about zylkene, would eliminating it have this fast a "result"? Wow, nonetheless, I'm glad!
No. With anxiolytic mood stabilisers and antidepressants, such as SSRIs, a slow reduction, slowly lower dose, is exactly appropriate, to protect the liver, but also prevent sudden mood swings, aggression, depression, somnolence (lethargy, behavioral rather than metabolic lethargy). So good instinct, but not applicable to Zylkene, or tryptophan, or L-theanine, common calming ingredients in neutracutical supplements. Good instinct to see if discontinuing Zylkene will make a difference for Charlie. Just because there is no evidence of Zylkene affecting neurological norms, does not mean it cannot occur in his particular case. Many things that start out with "there is no evidence that..." become debunked, and suddenly, we have evidence, either clinically or deliberately, in research.
 

mentat

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Yes, I think you're right! I think that's why Finn usually hates it when Charlie licks him. Something tells me it's a bit of a dominance thing with them - though I think sometimes it's been friendly, on rare occasion. Then yesterday, when Charlie was acquiescing on the chair situation, followed by Finn licking him...maybe it's part of them working it out. I'll take it - at least it's working it out without fur flying. ;)

Yesterday evening I was working at my table and came to realize I'd not seen the boys for a while. I went looking for them all over the house - finally found them in my bedroom on my bed! They weren't laying together, but the fact that they chose to lay in the same room together rather than lay close to where I was working was also a first. Interesting to watch this unfold.

Finn has spring fever today and is tearing around the house like a crazy man. I hear Charlie hissing at him in the next room while I type this. He also refused his breakfast and his lunch - I wonder if he's tasting the Zylkene and refusing food that has it in it, now? Argh!
Overall, feeling pretty hopeful. :)
Yeeees. Testing the dynamic, assessing tolerances and intolerances. This is very calm, "check-ins" Finn is doing, and Charlie is letting him know, with behavior indicating, uh, no, homey, that won't fly.

Mine are zoom zooming too! So many thing broken while I slowly get up, slowly move, and they get so stimulated and happy, what, what, where, where are going, are we getting treats, are we going to the sun room, Finallyyyyy? Hey, hey, hey, ma, mom, mommy, momma, mama, mama, mama, WHAAAAAA! I have to limit to 2 cats at a time in the BR or I fall on them when rising. They're so used to an active guardian, more playtime, than I've been able to do in a week. I may start to see my own behavior dynamic problems. I myself, keep consulting my health team, all specialties, and adjusted my anxiolytic and analgesia therapy, with more on the way. I wouldn't be able to even type to you all now without their excellent telemedicine approach and quick ordering of treatments sent via post. The importance of behavior modification therapy, for animal welfare and our own, is so valued and so underutilized. The stress compounding my pain, abdominal right upper quandrant, lower, at the colon, back spasms, herpetic neuralgia, old fracture and trauma sites flaring, old puncture bite wound sites malunioned, poorly healed, of my hands, and my arms.

With any of our strays we intake, we must remember, we do not know their story, their trauma, their joys and successes, their prior poorly healed injuries, their prior deficiencies or toxicities leading to permanent physiological challenges they've self-mitigated as much as possible for survival. Hyperthyroid street or community cats, for example, living long enough on neighbors feeding variety, they age, their thyroid becomes diseased, and they need medical intervention; but without it, they develop a new tolerance for their atrophied muscles, weight loss in the face of great appetite, and poor skin/coat health, atop the the effects of poor hormone signaling and regulation of all metabolism, circulation, perfusion, blood pressure, kidney flow, heart flow. The buggers are resilient that live like that for years, without medical intervention, until one of us suckas, takes him in, gets him tested, gets him medicated. Just rambling about unknowns, until they're known, until evidence presents itself, we cannot know their story.

Diagnostics, and close observation by professionals, helps sous out any pre-existing condition of street life. Especially parasites of the blood and hair follicles (mites, in or around ears, and head, can cause behavior that is unusual, but can't be pinpointed until ear swab on oil slide of ear debris, and a skin scrape, removing hair, down the deliberately breaking the skin barrier with abrading and removing layers, to get deep enough in follicles and dermis where mites thrive and feed. Especially pelvis and limb fractures they heal on their own, poorly, malaligned, malunion, bony accumulation atop the two fractured end of the bone, excessive, large quantity of new bone surrounding the fracture misaligned site. Leads to shorter limbs, poor balance, early DJD, and malaligned spine, so IVDD, compression of discs on nerves, begins gradually. Cats heal their pelvis like no other animal can, without surgery. I've so many fosters in the past with evidence of more than one fracture, one event, from HBC or shaken by predator. It's insane how resilient they are. I've cared for humans with fractured pelvis, we definitely do not handle ourselves like felines. That is some painful, long healing, especially considering all the weight atop our pelvis, in our torso, chest, head. Gah!

I am sleep deprived, sorry for the long tune. So Charlie and Finn seem to be allogrooming at times, which can be communal soothing (such as rubbing facial pheremones on each other and purring), but also can be gauges for understanding one another's personality, limits, and flexibility behaviorally. I like these videos. They are being responsible, respectful feline citizens. I see no issue here. Avoidance when annoyed, kudos Charlie, as some young uns just deserve a firm boop, but you restrained yourself. Nice job so far Buffster7 Buffster7 . Light and Peace be with you, during this very very difficult, dark time.
 

mentat

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I also just realized when watching the vid that I instinctively go and stroke his back - the wrong thing to do, from what I'm reading. I'll attempt to stick to stroking his head.
Yes, try to focus on less superficial nerve hypersignaling zones. Under the chin is a favorite of most FHS. Ears can be a trigger, as can the whole dorsum and tailhead. Once controlled, though, they love their pets and rubs return. No fear, it is very treatable if he does have FHS also called psychomotor seizure disorder, as it is mild focal seizures of muscle/nerve bundles.

Recently, a colleague had two back to back patients in shelter medicine with Feline Audiogenic Reflex Seizures (FARS) | International Cat Care. I am researching and inquiring, as FHS cats can have episodes or mild versions of FARS. Very interesting, as we with chronic illness, fatigue, and pain, can develop disautonomia, jarring physiological response to noise. Such as the golden breeders 15 kenneled dogs 500 feet away. I miss my family's 50 acres we once had, plopped in the middle, isolated, before COVID19, hahahaha. Hermitage is underrated. Food for thought, eh?

How was that vet visit, I'm behind in Charlie and Finn's updates??
 

mentat

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No, not at all. I'm just eliminating any "extras" and started with the most recent addition. I think I'll keep his CBD oil at reduced dosage, but eliminate the Zylkene and Comfort Max and any seafood from his diet. The Zylkene is just a peptide that binds to receptors in the brain which has a calming effect. I think it's a bovine or milk derivative, can't recall. I feel good about it, but I'm going to eliminate things one by one.

Edit to add: If this is FHS, I did read that cats can behave completely normally between episodes, so this wouldn't be unusual to have the bizarre behavior followed by normal behavior.
I also want to explore other possible causes or contributors. Could a food allergy cause the dermatitis? Could mites be irritating him? Could his liver be overloaded with the CBD, Comfort Max, and Zylkene? (I don't do them all at the same time, but I do alternate.)
Is it a psychological response, or is it physical? I sure wish I knew. Just super thankful for a good day today!
Liver metabolism of these supplements is minimal. What isn't absorbed is waste, in urine, water waste, pulled from blood. Not to say, his liver is perfect. We don't know without imaging.

Agreed, concur, discontinuing won't harm him, and slowly adding one therapy at a time, to see which are the most efficacious when singular, versus in combination therapy. Usually, combination therapy reduces the dose needed of each, and responds synergystically together. Same for behavior modification and pain management combo therapy combined. It's a beautiful science, helping us all just feel better, be better, function, as our normoself emotions and reactions and reception of pain reduced, instead of our sick-self.

Your methodical approach is spot on. Slow removing can help know if that triggers a return of a symptom as well. Slow adding, can see the benefit of a treatment. Pyschological and physiological/morphological often are not exclusive. Often, they are tied, intrinsically, one affecting the other. In most disease processes, or trauma, or stress-adjustments, such as new environmental factors, new setting, new people, new sounds, new cat, loss of people, loss of setting, loss of dog. Ensure your kitties' doctor keeps this in mind when assessing the macroscopic view of a patient, as well as observing the infintessimally small, microscopic, view.
 

mentat

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I think that scene is very encouraging. Waffles and Mooshoo have been more on edge since Ziggy came, another intro for them, but have to roll with how they feel.
I kind of think Charlie and Finn having some time separated and with you home has helped them. Took a breather to get some relaxation.
Stay well and glad Charlie is doing better!
Aw, I had a Waffles growing up, a piggy/cavy. And fostered a giant fat Waffles surrendered to the shelter after owner passed on. The satisfaction of all those waffles of skin and fat disappearing over 3 months of medical foster was sooooo satisfying ;] He was a big red tabby boy. Yours appears gray tabby, with white markings? I can't tell in the image on your signature pearl99 pearl99
 

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Buffster7 Buffster7 feeding oily, high omega 3 fatty acid content fish in moderation can be very beneficial to any chronic disease. It's antiinflammatory and contributes to cellular regeneration, at so many levels. If not the fish (canned sardines, 1oz every other day, for example) a veterinary concentrated omega 3 f.a. supplement is highly advantageous. I prefer Nutramax Laboratories' Welactin for cats and dogs. They love it, it stores well, long term, if one elects to save quite a bit by using the 16oz bottle. Refrigeration just so I know they aren't seeking it in the cabinet, but it can be stored at room temp. Measure with 1/4 and 1/2 tsp depending on small/large feline dosing. Starting every other day, so GI can adjust, and avoid inflammation due to fat digestion and absorption to quickly, too concentrated. Most don't get the GI signs, just a warning.

Joints, brain, skin, nerves, heart, kidneys, liver, GI, eyes, endocrine, all benefit from omega 3 f.a. supplementation. They and we do not generate enough of our own antiinflammatory fatty acids. It absolutely must come from diet or supplementation. Low sodium sardines in water are perfect, as the water is already laden with fatty acids. Oil immersed sardines or other oily fish, is redundent, and excessive fat, which can lead to pancreatitis or gastroenteritis and colitis (diarrhea, ick). Moderation is key. Be well. Be safe. Do something good for yourself today.

Prior foster kitten and cat tax ;]
 

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pearl99

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Aw, I had a Waffles growing up, a piggy/cavy. And fostered a giant fat Waffles surrendered to the shelter after owner passed on. The satisfaction of all those waffles of skin and fat disappearing over 3 months of medical foster was sooooo satisfying ;] He was a big red tabby boy. Yours appears gray tabby, with white markings? I can't tell in the image on your signature pearl99 pearl99
Waffles is the opposite, white with gray/brown splotches of tabby on his back, the face as you see, and a gray/brown tabby tail. He's the one on the right of my avatar picture. Aren't Waffles's wonderful!
And Ziggy is a fatty- she's lost a bit over the 4 weeks she's been here. Getting her weight down very gradually.
 

Buffster7

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mentat mentat Thank you so much for your informative, spot-on posts. I wanted to wait and respond when I could sit still long enough to really read and absorb all the nuggets of information. This forced break has been so beneficial in so many ways, and I am so glad that if it had to happen, it's happening in the spring. I've really enjoyed spending time with my family and waking up early before the world rouses and enjoying the outdoors! Hard to sit still long enough behind a computer these days.
I am sleep deprived, sorry for the long tune.
The stress compounding my pain, abdominal right upper quandrant, lower, at the colon, back spasms, herpetic neuralgia, old fracture and trauma sites flaring, old puncture bite wound sites malunioned, poorly healed, of my hands, and my arms.
How are you feeling, now, my friend? Have you been afforded some downtime during this shelter at home to recover? I don't know if you have shared in other threads some of the physical hurdles you are working around, and if so, forgive my ignorance. Praying that this note finds you a bit more rested.
I miss my family's 50 acres we once had, plopped in the middle, isolated, before COVID19, hahahaha. Hermitage is underrated. Food for thought, eh?
Did you grow up in Hermitage? Are we neighbors? What a small world this is!
feeding oily, high omega 3 fatty acid content fish in moderation can be very beneficial to any chronic disease. It's antiinflammatory and contributes to cellular regeneration, at so many levels. If not the fish (canned sardines, 1oz every other day, for example) a veterinary concentrated omega 3 f.a. supplement is highly advantageous.
Regarding the fish oil, are the concentrations different in the veterinary formulations? I wondered if I'm able to puncture my capsules and add to their food, or if that would be too potent. I've always been hesitant to purchase fish oil for animals as it's something I doubt many people purchase around here, and so I feel that it sits on the shelves and becomes rancid.

As I've been typing this, I've watched the boys sparring over the chair by the window (in the pics above). So far Finn seems to be winning; he again refuses to give up this chair and appears to be trying to take it over. Charlie shows his displeasure by jumping up and nipping Finn. I'm not sure what happens, but Finn either uses teeth or claws to send Charlie to the floor again. This last time, Charlie jumped up, caught Finn off guard, and knocked him off the chair. Finn is now back up at the top of the chair, and Charlie allowed it. They are both now grooming themselves on the same chair. Allogrooming, is that what you called it? Both have back leg lifted to the sky...it appears a momentary truce has been struck. :lol:

The Royal Canin Calm kibble arrived, and I've been using that as treats as suggested. They are both OBSESSED. Regardless of how fussy/testy they become with each other, they're always willing to lay aside differences and work together for those treats. Thanks for the recommendation.

I hope everyone is staying well on all levels, and making the most of this forced down-time. Sending virtual hugs to each and every one of you! :grouphug:
 

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Allogrooming, is that what you called it? Both have back leg lifted to the sky...it appears a momentary truce has been struck.
:flail:


Sending virtual hugs to each and every one of you!
Trying to avoid getting cranky in all this (I'm admittedly a little too type A) and reading a thoughtful, caring post like yours above makes a difference :) :hearthrob:
 
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