I did it!! Sub-q'ed my kitty

[that guy]

Take the good when you can and remember this on those bad days. I tried 2 times yesterday and had to get someone to stand in for me which was another 2 tries to get it working. I got it right on the first shot but he was leaking so I had to try another spot and it went down hill from there. I am glad you are doing well and have changed the fluids to something that does not upset your patient. It usually doesn't take them long to figure out it makes them feel better and then it is usually no problem giving it to them.

 

[peaches08]

Are the fluids warmed first?  That made a big difference for Grey (RIP).

 

[that guy]

 
Are the fluids warmed first?  That made a big difference for Grey (RIP).

She mentioned somewhere in the thread that she indeed warm the fluids first. The vet doesn't but I also warm it up to reduce any discomfort.

 

[wasabipea]

I do warm them, but don't have a thermometer - do I go by the temp of the bag - and when I prime the line I take it down to the warm fluids and make sure it doesn't feel hot on my finger. Generally speaking, she is being very good since I gave her the straight Norm R, with no added potassium, but even with the Terumo 20G, she still lets out a mew when I poke. Maybe I'm not going fast enough, or maybe it's her way of telling me it's in.

So far, no leakage and no poked fingers - well one poked finger, but that wasn't a poke thru, it was a snafu on my part after she botled.

She has stopped bolting mid-administration for now, and lets me wrap up and remove the needle. She visibly relaxes when the needles is out. Then pill, then dinner, then all is (more or less) forgiven.

I'm out of fluid though, wonder if I need a 'script to buy online... or at my previous vet - they are affordable (and they will know something is up if I ask for a different fluid. (I guess I should let my old vet know she was diagnosed with eColi for their records).

 

[catsallaround]

Some vets will match online prices.  Or even other vets in the area. 

 

[that guy]

The fluids are not prescription and can be bought anywhere. I live in Canada and buy this stuff from Stevens Medical Supply but there are a lot of places that sell online. I was paying $30 CAD for one complete kit from the vet and from Stevens they are about $8 CAD a kit. What I would do is check with your vet and see what fluid they recommend. My uses Lactated Ringers solution for ABD and renal failure but I just do what the vet says because I don;t have any issues with the fluid and neither does my cat. Because this makes it tough on both you and your cat I would talk to the vet and see what they recommend that does not sting yet does the same thing. What is important is you know you have a handle on this with the right fluid which was probably a lot of your issue when you begun this. If the cat doesn't like it then it will not be easy and this is not the way to learn. Someone I work with had to put their cat down because it would not tolerate a sub-q by anyone and it was deemed to stressful to her but this was the cat and not the fluid. I would check with the vet, you pay them a lot of money so I have no issues questioning them for alternatives if I don't like the treatment. There are times when there is no choice but the idea is to keep your cat happy and as healthy as possible and painless treatments is a good way to do it. Look how happy she is after a sub-q and just think how you would feel having it done to you so the more you can do for her the better.

How high do you hang your bag above your buddy when you give the sub-q? You will really notice an increase in the speed of the fluid if you hang it up high so check on this. I keep the bag about 3 - 4 feet above his head which makes it hard to read the bag or weight it sitting down but it gives it good pressure. I also use the 21 gauge UTW needles and these do slow the flow a bit more than the 20 gauge. I just switched over and have a box of both but I think i will stick with the 21 gauge needles. My guy is pretty good and at most he shifts around but it is rare when he tries to reach so I don't have a problem standing or anything while I am doing it. Most of the time he is lying on his side purring or sitting on his side and elbows purring.

 

[wasabipea]

She actually sits on her window perch which is at the lower end of the window sill so I open the window all the way and hang the bag from the window lock. It's a good three to four feet over her head and yes it does make it a little difficult to read sometimes but as long as I keep my hand on her I can stand up and read the fluid level pretty easily.

My vet switched her to the norm - R without the added potassium, and she does fine with that. It was probably the added potassium in the bag that caused it to sting, she is fine now and actually fluids are going very well - she has gotten to the point where sometimes she sits there and purrs, sometimes she just sits there and looks out the window, but she doesn't really fight it. I know she feels better after she gets her fluids and once the needle poke is over, it's pretty much cake. I try to get it over with as fast as possible by hanging the bag up high and also squeezing it, unually the flow is pretty good - if it looks slow, then I try to reposition the needle slightly without upsetting her. Again, it's just my two hands and while she is good, she isn't as super cooperative as Scratchy.

When it gets cold and I can't open the window, I'll rig something up with a coat hanger and hang it high up from that. Hopefully she will still be with us then. She will purr from the warm fluid when it's chilly and likely suddenly become a big fan.

 

[that guy]

I bought an IV pole off of eBay that is adjustable for height and this makes it easy wherever Scratchy is hanging out. It did not come with wheels though (thanks China) but I found it works better without them so no great loss. A coat hanger can also go a long way so as long as you have a plan you should be set. I wouldn't be making any arrangements yet, your buddy may surprise you. My guy looked pretty rough a few years ago and the fluids made a huge difference and his numbers came back and he has been doing well all things considered.

 

[quiet]

I just hang the bag on an over the door hanger and put it at the top of the door. Any time there is a dip in the line they won't flow as fast. I also let gravity work for me and point the needle away from the head, that combined with no slack works great. I have also been able to get a bag that goes over the IV fluid bag and you pump it up with air like a blood pressure cuff {which would probably work as well) and then it goes super fast. Just remember if it goes to fast it can be uncomfortable for the cat. Make sure the line isn't kinked by the roller.If using the pump you have to be fairly good at estimating the amount of fluids in the cat since you cant see.

 [img]https://kinkymedical.net/product_pix/INFLATION-SYRINGES/skpresscuff.jpg[/img]

 

[wasabipea]

Right now, things are working well with hanging from the window lock and of course a full bag is going to drip faster - it is up pertty high when the window is open, so I've got the gravity thing going on. I squeezed it a little last night to speed things up, because she was repositioning herself and I was afraid the needle was going to come out. Believe it or not, all the times I've done it successfully we've never had any leakage. Last night she actually went to lay on her side for a minute, but I think it made the needle uncomfy so she went back to cat loaf.

I actually had a little inside smile becuase she was watching me prep for fluids from across the room, and didn't run or hide. Actually after I had primed the line and was going to go get her, she started to walk over to her perch (where she gets them) and then seemed to remember "oh, I'm not supposed to like this" and then stopped and sat down. So I had to bring her the rest of the way. But she was a good girl again.

I still think I'm not the best poker, becuse I do get a little mew that sound like discomfort - but once it's in and the roller is open and the fluid goes - things generally go well.

I'll have to figure out something else for the cooler weather, not sure that I necessarily need something portable since she has no problem getting them by the window on her bed, and she gets to look out and it distracts her. So glad this is finally working! That was a huge hurdle for me mentally, and less stress on the kitty for sure. She even comes onto my lap afterwards and hangs out and purrs.

Quiet, the pic you posted isn't showing up for some reason. Does it cover/hide the tick marks on the side of the bag? That's how I measure how much she is receiving.

 

[catsallaround]

When it gets colder could you just put plastic over the screen or a plexiglass piece in?  Thinking she will still get a bit of fresh air from the cracks and can see out.

 

[wasabipea]

 
When it gets colder could you just put plastic over the screen or a plexiglass piece in?  Thinking she will still get a bit of fresh air from the cracks and can see out.

I will still keep the honeycomb blind raised so she can see out,  the perch is in a bay window so I could crack the one next to her bed for fresh air, and there is a gas stove nearby that I crank (gas schmas - I hate being cold!!). But I did put a heating pad under the towel she lays on in her bed. I think she really likes it for the overnights when it has been getting chilly here and her window is cracked. Should she still be with us this winter I know she will like the heating pad to warm her old bones then - and she will be a big fan of the warm fluids then.

Jeepers, the more I talk - the more I realize how spoiled she is getting!

It always makes me think of @pinkdagger  's words: "at their age, it should be cake everyday!" - that made me laugh. I try to give her cake filled days

 

[wasabipea]

The fluids are not prescription and can be bought anywhere. I live in Canada and buy this stuff from Stevens Medical Supply but there are a lot of places that sell online. I was paying $30 CAD for one complete kit from the vet and from Stevens they are about $8 CAD a kit. What I would do is check with your vet and see what fluid they recommend. My uses Lactated Ringers solution for ABD and renal failure but I just do what the vet says because I don;t have any issues with the fluid and neither does my cat. Because this makes it tough on both you and your cat I would talk to the vet and see what they recommend that does not sting yet does the same thing. What is important is you know you have a handle on this with the right fluid which was probably a lot of your issue when you begun this. If the cat doesn't like it then it will not be easy and this is not the way to learn. Someone I work with had to put their cat down because it would not tolerate a sub-q by anyone and it was deemed to stressful to her but this was the cat and not the fluid. I would check with the vet, you pay them a lot of money so I have no issues questioning them for alternatives if I don't like the treatment. There are times when there is no choice but the idea is to keep your cat happy and as healthy as possible and painless treatments is a good way to do it. Look how happy she is after a sub-q and just think how you would feel having it done to you so the more you can do for her the better.

How high do you hang your bag above your buddy when you give the sub-q? You will really notice an increase in the speed of the fluid if you hang it up high so check on this. I keep the bag about 3 - 4 feet above his head which makes it hard to read the bag or weight it sitting down but it gives it good pressure. I also use the 21 gauge UTW needles and these do slow the flow a bit more than the 20 gauge. I just switched over and have a box of both but I think i will stick with the 21 gauge needles. My guy is pretty good and at most he shifts around but it is rare when he tries to reach so I don't have a problem standing or anything while I am doing it. Most of the time he is lying on his side purring or sitting on his side and elbows purring.

Your tag was not working so I just quoted this post so that you get notification. I thought you would get a chuckle out of this, last night she was watching me, set up the sub q, And she was facing out the window which what is meant that the needle would have gone in towards her head - which is the only way I've ever done it. She got up and quickly faced the other direction, almost suggesting that I try it from the front. I did, and lo and behold there was no mew of pain and things went very well.

I think the area around her shoulder blades is getting sore so she she suggested that I try it a different way. Seems that way anyway. Thought of you because he said that you needle from the front, & I never have before, it was actually easier.

 

[that guy]

I use a 3 position heating pad for Scratchy and I think he likes it up to point and maybe it gets too hot. After a while he always gets up which could mean it is too hot or his old bones need a different position. I am a) too paranoid to leave it on and b) so is the government so it has a timer that turns it off after x period of time. Before I put an AC unit in my room I was taking a thermal sensing thermometer and was checking the temps in different areas where Scratchy slept or hung out and one of the places was over 95 degree F. He was sleeping in one of the closets which happen to have two servers in it and when it gets hot in the room the fans in those two machines crank right up and blast heat. I remember seeing once where a stray cat started to hang out in a small foundry in England and was adopted. He would hang out really close to the flames and had no issues with it and would hang out for hours. One of Scratchy's beds sits right on the forced air heating vent in my room and he will hang out on top of the vent during the winter. I leave the vent closed but enough heat escapes that it makes for a really warm bed.

I usually run the needle pointing to Scratchy's head so it is out of the way and easy to move. When Scratchy lies down he is always up on his elbows and his pelvis is on its side and he tends to live on his side during his sub-q (ideally on one of my hands/arms). This makes it hard to keep the needle from moving if it is going by his front but when it is going back it is easy. I have had to do it either way at times but for the most part the needle is pointing at his head. I am glad that works for you and she is having an easier time with it in general. I feel so bad sometimes because to keep my guy happy I have to do things that he probably doesn't care for. This afternoon and evening he is in paranoid mode waiting for the meds he gets through a syringe in the mouth. He doesn't mind the pain meds as much but the pepsin he gets for his IBD is not something he cares for at all. The only thing I have going for me is he has IBD and he needs to eat a lot so I know he will come to his dish/me at some point.

 

[wasabipea]

Well that pointing away from the head thing only worked that one time, maybe it was a coincidence. I tried it last night and I couldn't get the needle in anywhere, so I gave up because I didn't want to stress her out.

I have a five position heating pad on her bed and I usually keep it on only one or two tops. During the colder months maybe I'll take it up to three but that might get too hot. It does not have an automatic timer, so I leave mine on but I should probably get one with a timer.

She was giving me some grief today when I was giving her fluids, but she had just woken up from a nap... I figured it was residual fussiness from last night's errors, but as soon as I took the needle out she bolted straight for the litter box. Poor thing had to pee.

Roni may have IBD as well, but the vet is wanting to get the e.coli infection in her kidneys under control before we investigate anything else. 6 weeks of antibiotics are going to do a number on her tummy, so I will probably be practicing a lot of IBD techniques on her during this time as well. Probiotics to start, will start researching more IBD info and do's and dont's.

Wish us luck, we will need it!

 

[that guy]

It doesn't seem like you need much 'luck' because it seems like you have it under control. Caring for pets in this way is very hard and it takes a lot of work to get it to a point where you can successfully give these treatments but you have come a long way. I sure hope your buddy does not have IBS as well because that is some nasty stuff. I can see this coming on with my guy when his stools are getting soft or he is throwing up huge amounts of water and food. I am glad you managed to get some liquid in her without stressing her out too much.

 

[abby2932]

You are doing so great with the fluids!!

Don't forget to check out the Nexabiotic probiotic. I get mine on Amazon....$19.99 for 60 capsules.

My 8 year old, Malibu, suddenly started having soft (cow-patty) stool and the vet could not give me an answer as to why. It went away with antibiotics but as soon as that was over....soft poop. My vet was THIS close to diagnosing Malibu with IBD. That's when I came here searching for answers. I overnighted a bottle of Nexbiotic and gave him 1/2 a capsule, twice a day (so 1 capsule split between breakfast and dinner). I just sprinkle it on his ground food and he gobbles it up so it clearly doesn't have a bitter taste. (I also give it to my other cat though she has no digestive issues.)

I did an experiment and stopped giving him the probiotics and he started getting soft stool again so now I know it is something I need to keep in his daily routine! I now give him 1/2 capsule only once a day and his stools are still firm. 

Just something to think about! 

 

[wasabipea]

I did overnight some of the nexabiotic as well as that highly recommended Jarrow product with the s. Boulinarii (sure I'm spelling it wrong) to hopefully get her thru the next 6 weeks intact. Thanks for the support Abby2932!

@That Guy - she has an ecoli infection in her kidneys and we are looking at a lengthy stretch of antibiotics, which give her the runs. So while I have more or less gotten the hang of fluid administration, her immediate future is in the balance whether she will make it thru with all her issues.

Edited to add: i forgot i mentioned the ecoli thing, I wouldn't call it "under control" until she makes it successfully thru the 6 wks, and see if it caused any permanent damage, that's all. But thank you I'm just really really worried I guess.

 

[zoneout]

How can you tell there are ecoli in the kidneys?

 

[wasabipea]

I would assume that somehow came out in the urine that was aspirated via needle from her bladder and cultured. The "new" vet took sterlie urine, cutured it and determined the effectiveness of various antibiotics on that particular strain to get the best course of action. Something in the e.coli growth must have been kidney specific, but I never asked since I was bombarded with info and actually quite shocked.

I guess some strains can morph into being anitbiotic resistant, called superbugs, and then she would have been toast and eventually gone into complete kidney failure. Generally, they start out as UTIs and if left untreated they can travel to the kidneys, and since she has compromised kidney function as it is, she was susceptible.

So, while I didn't really definitively answer your question... that's what I know. Untreated UTI's or bladder infections can travel to the kidneys, causing permanent damage. And treating the infection once it gets into the kidneys is 6 weeks.

Afraid to get my hopes up, but she looked so happy this morning, talkative and ate with no coaxing... we might be on the mend folks. Hopefully.