Help Needed In Japan

[Solcita]

I have only kept one feral mother with kittens and I had her and the babies in a kitty condo in my bedroom. My other four kitties were all in the living room of my apartment. As soon as the kittens were old enough, the mom was off to the vet to be fixed and the kittens were separated to be tamed. I was able to start the taming process when they were still with the mother, by using a plastic Rubbermaid lid so I could grab the kittens away with out getting clawed or bitten. But the cage I had them in was much bigger than the one you were using. I did not have the space or time to care for a feral cat in my tiny apartment. As it was, I did not get a lot of sleep with them in my bedroom.

I think you are stressed out enough dealing with the babies and you don't need to worry about how other people might do things. It's what I would have done and how many other rescuers would handle it. Jcatbird is awesome and I hope she has some good advice on dealing with the mom crying. Can you try and sound proof the kitten area, so they can't hear the mom calling them? Have yous started working with the kittens? Have you tried the burrito method?

Thank you for sharing your experience.
When we took them to the rescue center we took the time to build a much bigger cage so now they all 3 can be comfortable inside.
I didn't try yet because they were reunited yesterday, but I know I will be able to handle kittens as they are approaching me more than before, not running away from my hand when I open the doors, and yesterday one tried to come to me when I was cleaning the litter... so I will try to move as fast as they let me

 

[Sarthur2]

It’s good you reunited mom and kittens. They need to remain together for at least 12 weeks, 16 weeks is ideal, especially since they do have a mom.

 

[Solcita]

Hello everybody,

The support you are giving here to us is PRICELESS.
I thought I was losing my mind yesterday. I decided to skip the office (which brought a lot more stress) and work from home in order to check the situation.
At first Kato would stay and yell and cry. We moved the kittens to the bathroom so they couldn't hear her and she couldn't hear them either. This meant putting them again in a crater.

The rescue center recommended to stop the socialization and let them calm down... and for Kato to turn on a radio in order not to listen to her... yeah... not very human to me.

Kato eventually left, but kept coming back always yelling and crying. When I thought she wasn't around I went out to clean up the old cage and I could hear her yelling from afar, as she was able to hear the window opening, she came running to me and got closer than ever to me and yelled desperated to my face. I thought it was enough. I converted the cage into trap again, I placed food and 1 minute later Kato was trapped again.
I brought her inside, and she didn't hiss at all. She quickly went into the new big cage and then the kittens were added and the happy family was reunited.

On the other hand, this situation was also high stress for our own cats. Our oldest, Chihiro, is deaf, so she cannot hear anything that's happening but she knows something is happening... She has become aggressive with our youngest (her temper changed a little bit after her cancer treatment last year) so it's a stressfull situation in both sides of the house!

Yesterday she nursed them many times. Today it seems she is rejecting to nurse so Mini2 was crying and yelling out loud, and that's how my (and our upstairs neighbor's) day started at 5:30am. I can tell Kato is a little bit annoyed by all this yelling and she tries to shut her up.
Mini1 on the other hand (the genki, outgoing one) yesterday came to me when I opened the door to clean the litter. And today when I opened the door to take their plate, even when she was sitting right next to the plate, didn't move as usual... so today I will try to take her out and pet her a little bit, and try the burrito.
DH just showed me how he "Pets" them with one of the stick toys we have, and they even fall asleep when he does it.


Thank you very much for your wisdom! I will try to make myself time today to explore some of the older threads to learn more and more.
Also Norachan , the Feliway is arriving today . I hope it will also help our cats to relax.

Thank you!!!

 

[Norachan]

I brought her inside, and she didn't hiss at all. She quickly went into the new big cage and then the kittens were added and the happy family was reunited.

That makes me very happy.



Petting the kittens with a wand toy is an excellent idea. @shadowsrescue made a special petting stick for her feral cats.

DH is a smart guy.

 

[Solcita]

TPetting the kittens with a wand toy is an excellent idea. @shadowsrescue made a special petting stick for her feral cats.

DH is a smart guy.

I just checked her gallery and I saw her wand... I am actually trying to make something similar. DH says a toothbrush is also a good thing to use as it brushes them the way their mom would... I have to find the (not anymore) useless bag of hotel amenities

 

[Solcita]

Current situation: nap time. When you are meowing half of the night and start jumping and telling at 5, by noon you need a nap...
So I went to disturb them a little bit, I mean play with them, clean the litter, etc.

Mom now has some space and can move if she wants to be alone.


Since the reunion it seems everyone finally pooped. The issue is that the stools now are too soft.
I would normally serve wet adult and kittens food, plus dry kittens food.
During their time in rescue center they ate dry provided by them .. so I want to think that change in the diet is the responsible? One day of change can make this?

On the other hand, I'm trying really hard to not freak out, but while cleaning I found a few litter pieces with what seemed to be blood which was confirmed by a couple of spots in the paper they okay with

Because of the current poop situation I doubted at fist (it looks more brownish in person) but the paper is def not poop.

How concern should I be? It was only those two spots and a few of litter pieces.
Cannot see mom operation site as she is always on her belly and when she lays on the side I honestly don't even see anything... she is still nursing

Not freaking.out.(yet)

 

[Norachan]

Hi Solcita, sorry you haven't had any responses yet.

Since the reunion it seems everyone finally pooped. The issue is that the stools now are too soft.

I don't think this is anything to worry about. A change in diet, canned food, dry food, mother's milk, could cause the kittens to have a bit of diarrhea. Even if there is nothing wrong with the food it's not uncommon for them to have upset tummies just because it's something different to the food they are used to.

while cleaning I found a few litter pieces with what seemed to be blood

I have found traces of blood in the litter after worming kittens. If it's just a few drops it's nothing to worry about.

What kind of stitches did your vet use when he did the spay? Are they the dissolving kind or does mum have to go back and have her stitches removed?

It's unlikely that she will have burst her stitches and if it's only a little bit of blood there is no need to worry. If you start seeing more blood then ask your vet if she needs to come back in.

How are the family doing today? Everyone comfy in their new cage?

 

[Solcita]

Hi Nora, thank you for replying.

Kato is not supposed to go back to the vet, I also thought the blood could be coming from her, but I kept track of the stools, and I verified that it was coming from one kitten with some soft stool and bright red blood (Kato and second kitten are pooping normally).
This started yesterday so when it kept happening until this morning (5 times so far), I took a sample to our vet today. There was no parasites in the stool we took to the rescue center so they didn't get any medication, so this wasn't the cause, and I hope it's only the stress from the separation.

The vet did some tests and says there is nothing there but "it" could be parasites eggs that we cannot see yet.
He gave us some medicine to give to both kittens (as we don't know which one is the one going through this), but we have to make sure the kittens are the ones taking it and not the mom. The most important thing is that they both eat, drink and keep being their normal genkiselves.

The kittens have been eating the same type of food for over 3 weeks by now (with 1 week without it as they dissapeared), however they have been also eating adult's wet food (Kato's one) and keep nursing, even when sometimes Kato refuses until they cry so much she gives in.
As one of our cats (separated from this family and the only thing in common was that food) also started doing soft stools, I removed adult's wet food completely for everybody, and the vet said to not resume it, just keep feeding them with kittens food.

So, basically no need to worry, unless she loses appetite or vomits or gets diarrhea. I have absolutely no idea how we will give them the medicine when they all eat (including Kato) from the same plate at the same time (a one-time pill + some kind of powder twice a day for 5 freaking days)... I am already thinking in ways to make a divider... hoping this won't upset them too much...

 

[Solcita]

So... off to the vet tomorrow morning...

We just went in for a play date and none of the kittens engaged in playing as usual.
I cleaned up the litter box and there was no blood so I was hopeful.
However, after giving up, they went to the litter box and we saw Mini2 with diarrhea... Mini1 only peed, so we don't know if she's also affected at this time, until this morning it was only one... if by tomorrow morning there's no normal kitten stool, we might take both of them in... but right now, Mini2 has an appointment. Not sure how we will take her though, i think we will try to catch her with a box... hopefully Kato won't go crazy...

 

[Norachan]

Did the kittens get treated for worms when you took them to the vet? I've never known kittens that have outdoor access not have worms, if they haven't been treated already it probably is a round worm infestation.

Feeding them separately could be a good first step in getting them socialised. I guess Mum goes for the food first, is that right? Put the food at one end of the cage and then when she goes to eat slide a divider in behind her.

Then put in the food with the medicine in the part of the cage where the kittens are. If you sit close to them while they eat and talk to them quietly they'll start to associate you with food and all things good.

I know you have them on good canned already, but my cats really love Ciao canned. They get it as a treat or whenever I have to mix meds with their food.

The extra soft ones for older cats (7 years old or 15 years old) are fine for kittens.

One can in plenty for 2 kittens. They have it in Don Quixote for 110 yen a can at the moment.

 

[Solcita]

Thank you very much Norachan.

When we took Kato and kittens to the rescue center, we also took a sample of the stools as requested, and they checked it out and said they didn't have parasites, so they didn't treat them at all...

Mini2 is going very often to the litter box, she poops little quantity but goes often.
Mini1 is not genki as usual so I'm afraid she might be also affected.

I just checked and the pill we got is ドロンタール, a "removal of endoparasites".
We will see if we can manage to give them this tonight.
The kittens are eating wet kitten food twice a day, and they really like it... as we are going tomorrow morning to the vet, I won't stress much if Mini2 doesn't eat it, but I will do my best.

 

[Norachan]

The worms don't always show up on a fecal smear, but it's pretty unlikely that they won't have picked them up while they were outside.

ドロンタール is Drontal. I've never used that, but I think a lot of people on TCS use it. I use Profender, which is a liquid you put on the skin at the back of the cats neck.

Profender® Topical Solution (emodepside/praziquantel) - Bayer DVM

My cats are difficult to pill, so the liquid works better for me.

Worms will take a lot of the nutrition away from a kitten, so that could be why they're both a bit lethargic. They recover really quickly once the worms are gone though.

Hope they're all feeling better soon.

 

[Solcita]

I still don't understand why on earth they didn't simply deworm them all... in Argentina we do not even check, we directly give the medicine... anyway... miraculously we were able to give them both the medicine... however Mini2 (the affected one) didn't eat everything in the plate, I just hope she ate enough. Mini1 ate 95% of her plate. (We were given half tablet per kitten, and that's good for kittens from 0.5kg to 2kg, so crossing my fingers she got enough to her weight. I saved the rest of the food of both kittens... should I give them that for breakfast? Or should I discard it?

We were able to do it by first feeding Kato downstairs, without her knowledge, we added the divider and then we fed both kitties on different levels, so we could check how much each ate.

The good thing is that both kittens are genki again. They first played by themselves before dinner, and then we were able to play after dinner (super unusual). We will see how it goes tonight and tomorrow morning... according to the website this could cause diarrhea... so it will be hard to tell if the diarrhea will be bad or not tomorrow as the medicine ican also cause that... just a little bit confused... we can see how it goes on and then bring them or not during the day.

 

[Solcita]

What a morning... I think we are having a parasites outbreak here... not a single normal stool in the litter box today, even Kato is going soft.
I think I will go to the vet and ask medicine for all the adults cats, including our resident ones just in case.


I can tell Kato is kinda upset as she is talking almost constantly (very unusual of her to be so vocal), it can be her tummy or I think it's because she just found out that if she goes to the upper floor of the cage she can see outside... so she is now talking out loud while looking out the window... (Should I let her out?... mmmm)

This morning the kittens woke me up at 5am, as I didn't leave much food for the night.... so I was able to give them the medicine food... and they ate it almost all, so I know for sure that both kittens ate at least 75% of the medicine, which I hope is enough.
They are genki this morning and played with me a little bit after breakfast.

 

[Norachan]

How's everyone doing Solcita ?

 

[Solcita]

How's everyone doing Solcita ?

Thank you Norachan for checking up on us! So sorry for the delay! I was in a worktrip!!

The poop crisis is now behind us. The kittens took the entire treatment of that mystery powder and now have the routine of eating in separated places / plates, so Kato is now eating adult wet food and keeps sharing the dry kittens food that it's always available.
OMG these cats are poop and pee machines... I understand they all share one litter box... but we have to daily change the pads in it, while the pads are designed to last a week...!

Yesterday night, after returning exhausted from the trip, I left the litter box door open by accident and all three cats got out of the cage! The funny thing is they came running towards the kitchen door so we could see them through the window.

Then I turned on the camera before going in and both Minis were running around happily playing. When we went in to put them inside the cage, Kato very relaxed laid down in front of the main door... so we opened the cage door and left them alone, Kato went in shortly after and we had to go and incentivate the kittens and guide them.

Tonight we will let them out again but with us in the room, we will see how it goes. The idea is to give them more freedom and to be closer to them. I do hope to be able to burrito them today... yesterday I was zombie walking so I didn't attempt anything.

Kato has been expressing loudly her desire to go out. Yelling at the open window next to her cage... So tomorrow we might (trying to convince DH) let her out of the cage and open the main door to see if she goes out without her kittens.
I hope we can give her freedom to come and go... if she doesn't come back I will def lose my mind... LOL... but with her kittens inside I don't doubt she will come back or the kittens will loudly call her... she is still nursing them, not always and most of them time after the kittens insist for a while.

Kato has bonded with DH and now talks with him whenever he calls her name. He uses a toothbrush in a stick and pet her with it.
Mini2 also loves to be pet with it, but Mini1 just plays with it.
All three of them also try to call our deaf oldest cat... our cats so far look at them from afar and hiss sometimes, but mostly are curious about them.

We have found a potential adopter for at least one of the kittens... someone who has been looking to adopt but has been discriminated because she is a foreigner (although married with a Japanese).
Now with that in sight I hope to do our best in the next couple of weeks and try to tame the kittens for their adoption I'm so excited for them! A person who's been so willing to adopt but was turned down will love them more than anyone! I am hoping she falls in love with both and decide to adopt them together.

Will update during the weekend

 

[surya]

Sounds like things are going well. Good job.

 

[Norachan]

Yay, that's great news! I'm glad their stomachs have settled down now. Are you using cat litter or just those absorbent pee pads in the litter box? Cat litter lasts longer as you can scoop out the dirty bits and top up with clean.

There are lots of good soy based litters in Japan. They're cheap and very safe, you don't have to worry about kittens swallowing any as it's a food by product.

I think Kato will come back if you let her out. Her kittens are there, her food and bed is here, it's her home now. I like the idea on indoor only or indoor and enclosure cats but it took me a long time to persuade my cats to stay in. Actually a few of them still try to get out if they think they can.



Wouldn't it be fantastic if both kittens were re-homed together? You'll have to tell your potential adopter that kittens do better in pairs. They're much less likely to develop behaviour problems if they have each other for company.



Thanks for the update. We'd love to see some more pictures too.

 

[Solcita]

Hi! Thank you for your replies.

Regarding litter. The first one they used was this one: http://amzn.asia/d/83O7vVA
And when we separated as we ran out of it, we started using this one: http://amzn.asia/d/3WDSjlf

At first they didn't like it, so I started mixing it... and during the poop crisis, they eventually started using only the white ones.
The only issue is that sometimes they play with it. But it's easier to scoop out everything, even when a lot of litter goes out as well.

Since Friday we have been letting the cats go out of the cage and go around the entrance hall and kitchen.
Kato is already coming closer and closer, the only reason she didn't reach the living room is because we stopped her. But she keeps watching the window from afar, she is really really wanting to go out. She keeps blinking at us at the same time, and no attacks or hissing for a while. In general she is pretty relaxed... This is her trying to reach the open window next to the cage.


Today again, she tried to come to the living room, so I went to the door and started talking to her. I didn't like the position of her body (like almost going to attack me), so just in case I closed the door. After I did, she went back to the hallway.
As today was rainy, we didn't let her out... we will see tomorrow.

The weird thing is that Kato seems totally OK with us now... Now we can leave her food next to hear without her moving away from us, while the kittens will go away and then come back whenever they see we are leaving...
I am SUPER afraid of trying to pet her though... not sure how she can react. And for some reason she is super afraid of the gloves I wear for trying to pet them...

Today we played with the kittens a loooot: We still cannot touch them or approach much as they run away, but today again I was able to feed Mini1 with my hand... so I will keep working on it and trying to lure her closer to me and be able to pet her while eating or playing.
Mini 2 is more intelligent and she won't get any food out of a plate, so she ignores the spoon and hiss at my hand if I try to feed her.

So every day we are letting them out longer, today they were out like 3 hours in the morning and we plan to take them out again in the afternoon... one step at the time!

 

[Solcita]

Today again we had a play date with the kittens in the morning and we left the living room door open. We ignored them so they could come and go as they pleased. At one point Kato went slowly to the window, we opened it and she ran out.

She came back shortly after calling the kittens and they cried back, but if I kept playing with them they wouldn't mind about mom outside.
Kato went back to the window and kept calling them and as she realized they were not coming out ( I was preventing them from going) she came back in. She nursed them after that (after refusing for two days to do so).


She keeps coming back to the window hoping for someone to open it and trying to guide the kittens out.
She eventually fell asleep under my desk. Wakes up and goes to the window... We try to guide her back to the kittens with no luck.... Ears are up but she is in low position like ready to jump whenever we approach her.
We are ignoring her now. She tried to call the kittens so I put them back in the cage and kept playing a little bit. Even if they call her she just replies and doesn't go to them. In the meantime the kittens fell asleep as they are exhausted from all the playing.

We had to kitty proof our walls as one of the kittens was able to walk up! Never seen that before!!