Have You Ever Not Liked A Cat?

[Sonatine]

Empathy is not a solely human phenomenon. Evidence of it is seen in animals as well. It's true that it lacks the cultural implications that empathy has for humans, but it exists, even if in a more primitive form. There are accounts of a humpback whale sweeping a seal onto its back when the seal was attacked by killer whales. A study has shown that mice who have witnessed other mice in pain are more sensitive to pain themselves. Neural processes are believed to be responsible for empathy, and those processes are present in many animals too, even if it is not as evolved as it is in humans.

I honestly don't think that a strong sense of empathy would serve much purpose for a lone hunter like a cat, but I definitely can't assume that they don't experience it in any way! What I do know is that my cats experience feelings, strong feelings, even if those feelings and motivations can be something of a mystery to a human like myself.

But that's not what the original post is about. Have I ever disliked a cat? Not one that I've been able to spend a lot of time with, but I haven't been keeping cats for very long. But sometimes I dislike how they're acting even if I love them! I think a lot of cat parents experience that (particularly if they harm another beloved pet), and frustration on that front does deserve sympathy... and maybe even empathy!

 

[Azazel]

Empathy is not a solely human phenomenon. Evidence of it is seen in animals as well. It's true that it lacks the cultural implications that empathy has for humans, but it exists, even if in a more primitive form. There are accounts of a humpback whale sweeping a seal onto its back when the seal was attacked by killer whales. A study has shown that mice who have witnessed other mice in pain are more sensitive to pain themselves. Neural processes are believed to be responsible for empathy, and those processes are present in many animals too, even if it is not as evolved as it is in humans.

I honestly don't think that a strong sense of empathy would serve much purpose for a lone hunter like a cat, but I definitely can't assume that they don't experience it in any way! What I do know is that my cats experience feelings, strong feelings, even if those feelings and motivations can be something of a mystery to a human like myself.

But that's not what the original post is about. Have I ever disliked a cat? Not one that I've been able to spend a lot of time with, but I haven't been keeping cats for very long. But sometimes I dislike how they're acting even if I love them! I think a lot of cat parents experience that (particularly if they harm another beloved pet), and frustration on that front does deserve sympathy... and maybe even empathy!

Again it seems that humans are interpreting animal behavior as empathy. Which is fine, but once again empathy is a human linguistic concept and animals don’t speak our language. Sure, there are behaviors and actions that are associated with human empathy that we may also see in animals, but using empathy as an explanation for that behavior is putting a human interpretation on it.

The question of what empathy means or whether animals have it is not an empirical question, it’s a conceptual and philosophical one.

 

[Sidewinder]

Never met a cat I didn't like... and a few of my cats have been willful little b@stards, but I admire that in a cat, LOL.

As for "Empathy"---there was a cool 5.9 route by that name in Mission Gorge, a loose flake trapped in the surrounding rock could be used as a hold while ascending, then turned like a dial to create another usable hold once you were past it. Great problem for those into technical rock climbing...

 

[Sonatine]

Again it seems that humans are interpreting animal behavior as empathy. Which is fine, but once again empathy is a human linguistic concept and animals don’t speak our language. Sure, there are behaviors and actions that are associated with human empathy that we may also see in animals, but using empathy as an explanation for that behavior is putting a human interpretation on it.

The question of what empathy means or whether animals have it is not an empirical question, it’s a conceptual and philosophical one.

But does that remain true if the same neural processes are driving the emotion in both species? A rodent who sees another rodent in pain experiences neural activation based on its own firsthand experiences with pain. In the studies I read (okay, skimmed), this was sometimes referred to as emotional contagion or emotional resonance: a concept of very primal empathy, or shared emotional states, without any of the cultural conditioning or cognitive adjustments that humans experience.

Perhaps empathy isn't a perfect word to describe it, because it was designed to describe human behavior. But humans are animals too, and I see no reason why some animal behaviors cannot be rooted in the same neurological or emotional basis as our more complex empathy.

Also if anyone here actually has a background in neuroscience I apologize if I'm failing miserably at interpreting and explaining these things.

Anyway, I'm dragging us off topic again. I'm sorry!

 

[jefferd18]

[

Again it seems that humans are interpreting animal behavior as empathy. Which is fine, but once again empathy is a human linguistic concept and animals don’t speak our language. Sure, there are behaviors and actions that are associated with human empathy that we may also see in animals, but using empathy as an explanation for that behavior is putting a human interpretation on it.

The question of what empathy means or whether animals have it is not an empirical question, it’s a conceptual and philosophical one.

There have been scientific studies addressing this matter- with mixed conclusions. But to put it in its bare knuckle form- an animal who does not recognize the pain and suffering of others is an animal on it's way to extinction.

Jeff had such recognition, which is why she could survive out in the elements for so long. I fear Figaro would not, but then again there may be more to him than meets the eye, or at least my eye.

 

[jefferd18]

But does that remain true if the same neural processes are driving the emotion in both species? A rodent who sees another rodent in pain experiences neural activation based on its own firsthand experiences with pain. In the studies I read (okay, skimmed), this was sometimes referred to as emotional contagion or emotional resonance: a concept of very primal empathy, or shared emotional states, without any of the cultural conditioning or cognitive adjustments that humans experience.

Perhaps empathy isn't a perfect word to describe it, because it was designed to describe human behavior. But humans are animals too, and I see no reason why some animal behaviors cannot be rooted in the same neurological or emotional basis as our more complex empathy.

Also if anyone here actually has a background in neuroscience I apologize if I'm failing miserably at interpreting and explaining these things.

Anyway, I'm dragging us off topic again. I'm sorry!

No, you explained it perfectly, sometimes all we need to do to understand animals is to sit back quietly and observe them. I don't know anywhere near what there is to know about cats- and neither do scientists.

 

[Azazel]

But does that remain true if the same neural processes are driving the emotion in both species? A rodent who sees another rodent in pain experiences neural activation based on its own firsthand experiences with pain. In the studies I read (okay, skimmed), this was sometimes referred to as emotional contagion or emotional resonance: a concept of very primal empathy, or shared emotional states, without any of the cultural conditioning or cognitive adjustments that humans experience.

Perhaps empathy isn't a perfect word to describe it, because it was designed to describe human behavior. But humans are animals too, and I see no reason why some animal behaviors cannot be rooted in the same neurological or emotional basis as our more complex empathy.

Also if anyone here actually has a background in neuroscience I apologize if I'm failing miserably at interpreting and explaining these things.

Anyway, I'm dragging us off topic again. I'm sorry!

I don’t think a historical and cultural linguistic concept like empathy can be reduced to neural processes. Neuroscientists do enjoy trying to answer conceptual questions with observation, but that’s just a symptom of the naive empiricist culture of science today. Neuroscience isn’t the first reductionist discipline, phrenology also offered these types of explanations

But yes, I agree we are digressing into a topic that is probably better suited for the IMO forums.

 

[Azazel]

[





There have been scientific studies addressing this matter- with mixed conclusions. But to put it in its bare knuckle form- an animal who does not recognize the pain and suffering of others is an animal on it's way to extinction.

Jeff had such recognition, which is why she could survive out in the elements for so long. I fear Figaro would not, but then again there may be more to him than meets the eye, or at least my eye.

See my posts above. I don’t think these are empirical questions.

 

[jefferd18]

I don’t think a historical and cultural linguistic concept like empathy can be reduced to neural processes. Neuroscientists do enjoy trying to answer conceptual questions with observation, but that’s just a symptom of the naive empiricist culture of science today. Neuroscience isn’t the first reductionist discipline, phrenology also offered these types of explanations

But yes, I agree we are digressing into a topic that is probably better suited for the IMO forums.

We are digressing into one that is better suited o

See my posts above. I don’t think these are empirical questions.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one, no biggie.

To my original topic: When you live with somebody, you are bound to get on one another's nerves. I am sure at times that I am not always Figaro's favorite person. Whether it can work out between Fig and myself is something only time will be able to tell. If and when I don't feel the relationship can be repaired I will do everything in my power to make sure that Fig goes to a loving home. I will always have his back.

 

[jefferd18]

Empathy is not a solely human phenomenon. Evidence of it is seen in animals as well. It's true that it lacks the cultural implications that empathy has for humans, but it exists, even if in a more primitive form. There are accounts of a humpback whale sweeping a seal onto its back when the seal was attacked by killer whales. A study has shown that mice who have witnessed other mice in pain are more sensitive to pain themselves. Neural processes are believed to be responsible for empathy, and those processes are present in many animals too, even if it is not as evolved as it is in humans.

I honestly don't think that a strong sense of empathy would serve much purpose for a lone hunter like a cat, but I definitely can't assume that they don't experience it in any way! What I do know is that my cats experience feelings, strong feelings, even if those feelings and motivations can be something of a mystery to a human like myself.

But that's not what the original post is about. Have I ever disliked a cat? Not one that I've been able to spend a lot of time with, but I haven't been keeping cats for very long. But sometimes I dislike how they're acting even if I love them! I think a lot of cat parents experience that (particularly if they harm another beloved pet), and frustration on that front does deserve sympathy... and maybe even empathy!

Thank you. I agree with your stance on empathy, it is certainly not reserved for humans only.

This post has opened my eyes to the fact that if we like cats only for the reason that they are cats; then what does that say about their individual personalities?

 

[She's a witch]

I differ with you in one regard, I do think that animals are capable of empathy. In fact, I have had found cats who would put some people to shame when it comes to that emotion.

I’m not saying that animals are not “capable of empathy”, I’m only saying that even if we can observe the behavior in cats that we label as emphatetic, it doesn’t give us the right to EXPECT such behavior from the cats. They are predators with way less complicated brain structure than ours and meat of other animal is their only source of food. So we can hope the cat will not hurt a bird, we can even train it to some extent, but I would never ever trust the bird would be safe against it’s natural predator.
And btw I’m not a humanist and prefer any animal more than majority of humans I know and don’t know.

 

[jefferd18]

I’m not saying that animals are not “capable of empathy”, I’m only saying that even if we can observe the behavior in cats that we label as emphatetic, it doesn’t give us the right to EXPEXT such behavior from the cats. They are predators with way less complicated brain structure than ours and meat of other animal is their only source of food. So we can hope the cat will not hurt a bird, we can even train it to some extent, but I would never ever trust the bird would be safe against it’s natural predator.
And btw I’m not a humanist and prefer any animal more than majority of humans I know and don’t know.

I agree with what you are saying and I hope that I am not placing those expectations on Figaro. Its just that he has a very long list of some really awful traits which makes me tempted to use the words, 'no, and, good', when describing him. I took in a feral cat this summer that has better manners! Figaro seems only happy when everything in the house is knocked down- including my poor bird's cage. You don't know this cat. The other night when the mouse slowly dropped out of his mouth- reminded me of an eighties horror film.

No, I won't be keeping little birds anymore.

 

[She's a witch]

I agree with what you are saying and I hope that I am not placing those expectations on Figaro. Its just that he has a very long list of some really awful traits which makes me tempted to use the words, 'no, and, good', when describing him. I took in a feral cat this summer that has better manners! Figaro seems only happy when everything in the house is knocked down- including my poor bird's cage. You don't know this cat. The other night when the mouse slowly dropped out of his mouth reminded me of an eighties horror film.

No, I won't be keeping little birds anymore.

I have a cat that loves knocking objects down and I'm actually guilty of placing some objects for her to be knocked down as I'm super entertained by this We can't have nice things in the apartment and I accepted it, I'm aspiring minimalist anyway and cats are great minimalism teachers and they trained me to put the stuff away. My place has never been better organized. I'm only saying it to show that there's another way to look at the same behaviour, and even if you don't want to or can't bring yourself to change the perspective you look at him, some other person can actually find Fig very entertaining if you decide to rehome him. In the meantime or if it's not an option, is there any way you can protect the cages better, mount to the wall/ceiling? Cat proof all the things that matter and look at him with fresh eyes? He seems to be such a smart cat, and full of life.

 

[jefferd18]

I have a cat that loves knocking objects down and I'm actually guilty of placing some objects for her to be knocked down as I'm super entertained by this

Including the trash can, pots off of the stove, a glass full of soda,........? You get the point.

I will be blunt, he is a real pain in the a$$ at times. I would love to be able to train him to walk on a harness because I think that would help with his high energy level.

At this point I am a little afraid to re-home him because of the thought of someone losing their temper with him. I couldn't bear the thought of him getting hurt.

But trust me, if I felt that this relationship could not be saved, I would put everything I have into finding a loving home for Figaro. As I said above, I will always have his back. ]

 

[jefferd18]

Including the trash can, pots off of the stove, a glass full of soda,........? You get the point.


I will be blunt, he is a real pain in the a$$ at times. I would love to be able to train him to walk on a harness because I think that would help with his high energy level.

At this point I am a little afraid to re-home him because of the thought of someone losing their temper with him. I couldn't bear the thought of him getting hurt.

But trust me, if I felt that this relationship could not be saved, I would put everything I have into finding a loving home for Figaro. As I said above, I will always have his back. ][/QUOTE]

 

[She's a witch]

Including the trash can, pots off of the stove, a glass full of soda,........? You get the point.


I will be blunt, he is a real pain in the a$$ at times. I would love to be able to train him to walk on a harness because I think that would help with his high energy level.

At this point I am a little afraid to re-home him because of the thought of someone losing their temper with him. I couldn't bear the thought of him getting hurt.

But trust me, if I felt that this relationship could not be saved, I would put everything I have into finding a loving home for Figaro. As I said above, I will always have his back. ]

Oh, pots on the stove are my another cat's specialty Especially if it's filled with liquid - I use pot with hottish water to warm up their food few times a day, and if I forget to take it away, this cat will move it around with his forehead on the whole counter as he simply loves splashing water Of course the best splash is when it hits the floor so that's the goal. Sometimes I wait till the very last minute before taking it away from him because well, I'm filming it
We had to stop using glasses with water for that reason, we now have bottles that we need to close after each sip.
Trash can we keep under the sink in the cupboard that can be closed, if we'd want to keep it outside of it, it would need to be raccoon proof one

I know you're angry and annoyed with him and given what happened to your other pet friends, I totally understand this. But when you feel calmer, you can try to see him differently. Such cats are great in teaching patience and understanding Plus, I'm sure there's something good you can say about him.

PS Re harness training: you need to be aware that some cats, when they start outside walks, they start to demand it all the time; sometimes making it a regular habit helps, but other times the cat can spend awful amount of time crying to go for a walk. So this solution may actually backfire.

 

[IndyJones]

I just know there was a clothing store downtown at my old place that had a huge macaw that belonged to the owner. Unlike most of the stores down there who allowed people to bring in their dogs there was a big sign warning people not to bring them in the clothing store since the bird could bite them if they teased her. I got talking with the owner one day and her poor cat never got a moments rest. The macaw actually rode the cat like a wild bull after the cat swiped at her tail.

 

[Lisannez]

I mean I know you might not be ready for the humor now, but this cat needs to be on TV, or at least Youtube. My gosh his antics are quite funny. He may make you rich? But honestly, and seriously it sounds like it is a good time to rehome the cat if you can do so. It's not good for the cat, you or the other cats in the house. It's just not a good fit. Yes some of it is normal kitten behavior, and he will grow out of it, some of it is likely not. You would have to spend a lot of time training him, and working with him, and he still may have the same type of issues. I do think a lot of what he is doing could be prevented by now knowing he is prone to this. I mean our cats would NEVER take a watch or anything like that, they just don't do that stuff, but clearly he does. I would not get rid of him until you can find a loving home for him though. Good luck.

 

[KarenKat]

I love both of our cats, Olive and Gohan. But Olive is easy to love - she will sleep on my lap (or neck, or face) for hours, she is exuberant and playful but not excessively, she’s super food motivated so it’s fun to feed her. Simply she is a delight.

Gohan is another beast - he’s hard to relaxingly enjoy. Until recently he’s not a cuddler, but he seeks constant attention. The best way he does this is by walking up to you and shouting. So if you sit to pet him he will walk just out of range, or move to stand behind you and meow if you don’t move to follow him. He also won’t play like other cats and get good and tired. We found he loves the Cat Dancer but he sits and watches after a few pounces and won’t get much exercise in. So while nothing he does is really bad, he’s harder to relax and enjoy because it’s constant work to give him all the love and petting he wants. We do our best though, lol

 

[KarenKat]

PS Re harness training: you need to be aware that some cats, when they start outside walks, they start to demand it all the time; sometimes making it a regular habit helps, but other times the cat can spend awful amount of time crying to go for a walk. So this solution may actually backfire.

I definitely agree, we just had this issue with Olive. She has been howling at the door for weeks, after we used the harness once. And Gohan, he of long deliberations before he decides to act on anything, started door-dashing all of a sudden. Very uncharacteristic of him, but he must have liked his excursion too much as well.